Why do people think that social programs give money to the lazy or promote laziness?

[PokerPacker]

while some of them do, that's not by only issue with them. Whether the social program attempts to help me or not is not the issue, the issue is that they're taking more money from American pockets in order to fund these programs that should not be run by the federal government.

[PeterMP]

3 issues.

#1 those social programs that need funding are the very ones that are going to teach people to fish

#2 what will people eat while we're teaching them to fish

#3 their kids should not pay the price for their parent's behavior.

1. This thread isn't about educational resources/incentives.

2. Nobody in this thread has complained about short term goverment assistance.

3. That's unavoidable unless you are advocating taking the kids from the parent.

[Special K]

Sorry, but Jesus wasn't a counselor who coddled those he talked to, and frankly I don't think I've called any group a "brood of vipers"

Matthew 23:33 You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell?

My guess is that lots of folks thought he was a bit rude too.

Do you understand why He said what He said to the Pharisees?

3 issues.

#1 those social programs that need funding are the very ones that are going to teach people to fish

Not really. Please specify some social programs that successfully facilitate and actively encourage the rehabilitation and independency of its participants. Very few, if any. It is because these programs are not designed to quickly prop people up, help them, and send them on their way. They facilitate chronic dependency on the system. That is why our social programs are such a failure and we have chronic, cyclical poverty in pockets of our nation.

[PokerPacker]

wrong thread.

[AsburySkinsFan]

You aren't Jesus.

The other poster should have said, you don't exude any of the humility that Jesus taught about.

You're right Peter I'm not Jesus, and I prove that all the time, if you need any more proof just ask my wife.

I posted an example of the humilty that most people forget that Jesus offered those whom he disagreed with. Jesus was very impatient with people when they challenged him on false pretenses, and he shamed them time and again when they sought to excuse themselves from helping the poor. So, forgive me if I get quickly irritated when I hear the arguments of the Pharisees come up again. What's more is that instead of addressing my statement the poster decided to address the issue in an ad hominem manner by attacking me instead of debating the question at hand.

[Seabee1973]

My wife is a teacher at an inner-city Title 1 school - which means that the school gets Federal money because of the economically disadvantaged neighborhood its in.

Can't remember the exact percentage, but I'm pretty sure over 90% of the kids there are on a school-lunch program, which means that the government pays for the kids breakfast and lunch.

So if you want to have your faith in our system completely **** on, I would urge any of you to show up at that school in the morning or afternoon when the kids are getting dropped off or picked up. Cadillac Escalades with spinners, new Chevy Tahoes, tricked out Mercury Mountaineers, the works.

It's absolutely disgusting-and speaks to a complete failure of our system. Of course, that's just the surface. The other part of it is the $150 shoes and designer clothes and Playstation 3's and Wii's, etc.

These kids are being raised with values instilled in them that work is for suckers. Who can blame them? Maybe it is. :whoknows:

Future generations - Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Why would anyone want to rise out of that?

As much as i want to say get rid of the programs and start over no one has really come up with any better ideas.

But i agree I known a few people that were taking full advantage of the SSI and welfare programs That could easily get off them and get a job

[AsburySkinsFan]

Do you understand why He said what He said to the Pharisees?

Yes, and I quoted it as an EXAMPLE of the types of things that Jesus said, not to directly reference something witin the context of this debate.

Not really. Please specify some social programs that successfully facilitate and actively encourage the rehabilitation and independency of its participants. Very few, if any.

So you want me to specify some social programs that do this but then right after you ask for some examples you dismiss any examples that I might bring with "very few, if any" sorry if I don't believe that you're actually honestly asking for examples or would take any examples seriously.

It is because these programs are not designed to quickly prop people up, help them, and send them on their way. They facilitate chronic dependency on the system. That is why our social programs are such a failure and we have chronic, cyclical poverty in pockets of our nation.

This is opinion, backed up by a cynical view of social programs. Do they need reform, sure as do many government programs.

[AsburySkinsFan]

3. That's unavoidable unless you are advocating taking the kids from the parent.

So what would you advocate?

Remove the kids or help them in their parent's care?

BTW, the use of the word unavoidable suggests that you think the kids might be best viewed as collateral damage in straightening out the social programs.

[Destino]

His was a message of helping people to help themselves.

What bible are you reading? This quote is outrageous!

Christ's message was absolutely NOT "helping people to help themselves". This warping of God's word is extremely alarming. Christ's message was to give selflessly. To give more than asked. To do without care for what you would get return but to give and keep giving for the sake of giving.

"But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;"

If they don't do right with the money they recieve that is a burden for them to carry. God does not tell you to not help because you feel they may not help themselves. That is a dangerous corruption of God's instruction.

[PeterMP]

So what would you advocate?

Remove the kids or help them in their parent's care?

BTW, the use of the word unavoidable suggests that you think the kids might be best viewed as collateral damage in straightening out the social programs.

Some problems don't have solutions, especially when you are talking about a goverment that has to apply rules to as many people as our federal goverment does (and certainly not easy ones where I would suggest that I actually know of an actual workable solution).

The word unavoidable states the truth and doesn't suggest anything. If parents make bad choices (like being lazy), it is going to affect the child no matter what you do (even removing the child will have an effect).

Giving a kid free medical treament doesn't do any good if the parents don't use it (correctly).

[Koolblue13]

What bible are you reading? This quote is outrageous!

Christ's message was absolutely NOT "helping people to help themselves". This warping of God's word is extremely alarming. Christ's message was to give selflessly. To give more than asked. To do without care for what you would get return but to give and keep giving for the sake of giving.

"But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;"

If they don't do right with the money they recieve that is a burden for them to carry. God does not tell you to not help because you feel they may not help themselves. That is a dangerous corruption of God's instruction.

I would just like to point out in that quote, never did it say "have a large institution take at gun point from those with much and give to those with less".

[Destino]

I would just like to point out in that quote, never did it say "have a large institution take at gun point from those with much and give to those with less".

look closer:

"and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles"

[Koolblue13]

look closer:

"and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles"

[GrapeApe]

AMEN!! So Cut the Department of Defense spending by 2/3rds!!!

Everybody wants to cut DOD, but DOD funds a lot of our technology research in this country. Especially on the small business side through their SBIR/STTR programs. We've already become second rate at so many other things. Do we really want to become second rate in technology and space?

[PeterMP]

look closer:

"and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles"

That doesn't mean you should support the formation of such an organization- just that if there is one adhere to it to the point that you are doing so overly. Jesus clearly understood and supported the concept of paying taxes when there was no other option.

That doesn't mean Jesus would vote for people that support a large socialist federal goverment (i.e. liberals).

[wilsonian]

I don't think that people who are on welfare are somehow inherently lazy to begin with. I think the system is the problem, because it promotes laziness. We live in a country that taxes work and subsidizes non-work. Can you blame people for taking advantage of the system?

Certainly, the government has good intentions. Helping the poor is a noble cause, but like most government programs, there are unintended consequences that simply make things worse, and that very few people think of ahead of time. It's very difficult to do good with other people's money. There's no incentive to spend carefully, and that is why, I believe, so many government programs are inefficient and wasteful.

[lckelsey4]

I'll reply to the original post's question as to why I think social programs promote laziness. And its because every example I have ever seen has been somebody who has abused it.

1. My old neighbor's adult son would promptly go on unemployment after he would get fired (almost always their fault), and only look for a job before it ran out. Rinse. Repeat. I don't think he ever had a steady job for more than 2 years.

2. I used to live near subsidized living. Shortly after this one family moved in, the old Honda became a Mercedes S-Class and a Plasma screen was later moved in. You can't afford housing on your own but buy luxuries like that?

3. I have two relatives who lost their jobs and instead of looking for a new one just said they'd go on unemployment until it ran out.

4. I know somebody who is a young single mother who lives with her rich parents who pay for her child to go to private elementary school. She gets assistance from the government all the while getting unemployment while working a babysitting job that she does not declare.

5. I know somebody who is a total screw up who continues to have more kids because of the government assistance they get for it. They are supported overwhelmingly by his parents and neither of them work.

Until I see somebody or a situation where it has not been abused and somebody has taken advantage of it and bettered themselves I will refuse to believe any rhetoric to the contrary.

[helptheSKINS]

I feel that is an invasion of privacy. I feel violated every time I have to piss in the ol' cup to get a job or because I got some minor injury at work. I grin and bear it because that's just the way it is. I don't think anyone should be tested at work unless there is a suspicion of use ON THE JOB. Otherwise, it's irrelevant. To make programs dependent on a drug test is baseless - it's not illegal to USE drugs, just to possess or traffic them. So there's not even a legal ground for you to stand on there. We as a society are WAY too hung up on who's doing drugs and who isn't. Our prisons are full of minor drug offenders, which is costing us as a nation an awful lot of dough, I'd hazard to guess that it rivals "handout" spending.

I disagree with most of your post but the part that really bugs me is what you left out. HOW ARE THEY PAYING FOR THESE DRUGS? If they need govt assistance, how on earth can they be paying for drugs. Either they are using my tax money to pay for their drugs or they are stealing additional money/property to pay for it.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Everybody wants to cut DOD, but DOD funds a lot of our technology research in this country. Especially on the small business side through their SBIR/STTR programs. We've already become second rate at so many other things. Do we really want to become second rate in technology and space?

You missed the point of my statement, the poster that I was answering said "If you want something mis-managed, let the government run it." I was pointing out how rediculous a statement that is by pointing to the DoD, in that if his statement were true then the DoD would be mis-managed since the government runs it and since its mismanaged it needs to be either cut or have its spending reduced.

[zoony]

There's a saying in Tennessee- and in many parts of the West as well where there are National Parks with bear problems.

Don't Feed The Bears

in the Smoky Mountains and out west in places like Yellowstone, it was common in the 60s and 70s. Very soon bears forgot how to forage and survive for themselves, and they became a real problem. Bear attacks were out of control, and bear populations over-ran populated areas. It wasn't the bear's fault- despite people having the best of intentions, feeding the bears and giving them handouts made them reliant on humans to find food- it was the only way they knew how.

The National Park Service implemented a very controversial program that was a resounding success- they simply cut the bears off, and made feeding them illegal. The bears very soon learned how to forage for themselves and survive on their own. National Parks have some of the healthiest bear populations with extremely low incidents of attacks nowadays.

Matthew 13:13

[zoony]

You missed the point of my statement, the poster that I was answering said "If you want something mis-managed, let the government run it." I was pointing out how rediculous a statement that is by pointing to the DoD, in that if his statement were true then the DoD would be mis-managed since the government runs it and since its mismanaged it needs to be either cut or have its spending reduced.

I think the only thing you pointed out was your tendancy to flame just about every thread you enter into with absurdity.

If you want to have a conversation about the size of the DOD budget, do so in another thread.

[CandaceM23]

There's a saying in Tennessee- and in many parts of the West as well where there are National Parks with bear problems.

Don't Feed The Bears

in the Smoky Mountains and out west in places like Yellowstone, it was common in the 60s and 70s. Very soon bears forgot how to forage and survive for themselves, and they became a real problem. Bear attacks were out of control, and bear populations over-ran populated areas. It wasn't the bear's fault- despite people having the best of intentions, feeding the bears and giving them handouts made them reliant on humans to find food- it was the only way they knew how.

The National Park Service implemented a very controversial program that was a resounding success- they simply cut the bears off, and made feeding them illegal. The bears very soon learned how to forage for themselves and survive on their own. National Parks have some of the healthiest bear populations with extremely low incidents of attacks nowadays.

Matthew 13:13

Amen Zoony. A-freakin-men

[AsburySkinsFan]

look closer:

"and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles"

Don't forget:

Matthew 22:21 "Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's."

and as long as we're at it

Romans 13:1-4 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think the only thing you pointed out was your tendancy to flame just about every thread you enter into with absurdity.

If you want to have a conversation about the size of the DOD budget, do so in another thread.

How was that a flame? And I'm not wanting a conversation about the DoD. But whatever.

[chiefhogskin48]

I voted for Obama but I loathe welfare, section 8/public housing, and other poverty-inducing programs. I hope these do not increase during his administration.