Jesus Camp

[cathartic-j]

The subtle signs are already appearing, if you look for them.

Christian holidays, are being de-christianized, and our society has made it taboo to say Merry Christmas, you can't even have a "Christmas Party" at work anymore, they've taken away the nativity scene from public places, they're started to remove "In God We Trust" from our money. Students are being forbidden to pray in schools. We are gradually moving toward a society that detests Christianity. The signs are already in place.

You can stop promoting something without detesting it; our government is supposed to be agnostic. Atheists are the most feared minority in the country (which is no small feat, I might add) -- so we're a long way from "a society that detests Christianity."

[cathartic-j]

You are correct.

But that's not what I'm talking about.

The rights of Christians to practice their own beliefs privately are gradually being taken away.

Printing your religious beliefs on legal tender does not qualify as "practicing [one's] own beliefs privately."

[SkinsOrlando]

Printing your religious beliefs on legal tender does not qualify as "practicing [one's] own beliefs privately."

I never knew that currency caused you so much anguish, I'm sure you sit there at night and stare at the greenback just sobbing because there's a few words printed on it.

[Blackest Eyes]

Yeah saying Merry Christmas is not really having religion shoved down your throat. I just think of it as people being kind and basically like wishing you a good day/week or something.

I don't get why people get offended about the dumbest things. Get over it. Now if people wishing me a Merry Christmas were telling me I was going to hell for not believing in God or whatever, then I might get a little upset. But I really do not think I would make a big deal out of it.

Ugh...religion is such a touchy subject.

[ntotoro]

You can stop promoting something without detesting it; our government is supposed to be agnostic.

No, it's not. The Government is not to promote a state religion, which is a far cry from Agnosticism.

While this whole "Jesus Camp" may be a bit scary to the majority of Americans (including me), they do have the rights and freedoms to be so as long as they are causing no harm to anyone.

[Kosher Ham]

You are correct.

But that's not what I'm talking about.

The rights of Christians to practice their own beliefs privately are gradually being taken away.

How are your private rights being taken away ? You can sacrifice dogs in your living room if that is part of your belief system. But if you start to put it on display publically, aren't you infringing on my right to believe what I want ?

Freedom of Religion does not mean freedom from Religion.

Big difference. If people are not committing crimes, they shouldn't be made to feel guilty for whatever they think, do or say, regardless whether anyone likes or agrees with it. That goes for anything.

I should be free from religion if I choose not to practice of believe, same as you should be free from rhetoric that disputes yours. And it's not up to me to like or agree with your religion, that's your business.

So saying Merry Christmas is shoving religion down your throat? Having In God We Trust is shoving religion down your throat? When you sneeze and someone says God bless you, is that shoving religion down your throat?

Yes, in all three instances.

I say Merry Christmas to people I know are Christian, Happy Hannukah to others and so on. If you trust in God thats your prerogative, I shouldn't be forced to believe or accept it. And God Bless you...I say simply "Bless you".

[Springfield]

I say Merry Christmas to people and I'm not even a Christian.

But as far as Christmas... what's the big deal? I hear all of these complaints about people trying to "take away Christmas from the Christians" and all of that other bull****. First of all, I hear all about it, but I don't see anything. Christmas is still alive and well, the same as it was 20 years ago and I live in a democrat haven of VA. Secondly, people don't complain when we turn Christmas into an economic holiday, a holiday to buy and buy and give and give. The original meaning of Christmas was dead long before I was born. So go on, complain about how they are taking away your business manipulated holiday, because it is all bull**** to me.

[Thiebear]

Im completely free from religion.

I'm not forced to go anywhere that has it.

I'm not forced to participate in anything that even resembles religion when i do get to different places.

The closest we've ever gotten is a tree at the whitehouse once a year.

[Corcaigh]

The closest we've ever gotten is a tree at the whitehouse once a year.

Those Jews forcing the Hanukkah bush on us every December is getting a bit much.

[cathartic-j]

I never knew that currency caused you so much anguish, I'm sure you sit there at night and stare at the greenback just sobbing because there's a few words printed on it.

I'm actually something of a Christian myself. But Mick claimed that he was writing about individuals practicing their religion privately, and that's simply not true. A government making a statement about God on its currency is in no way equivalent to "practicing one's own religion privately."

No, it's not. The Government is not to promote a state religion, which is a far cry from Agnosticism.

I should have been more clear: I didn't mean "agnostic" as in, "it's impossible to know"; I meant "agnostic" as in "not making any sort of judgment." I'm sure there's a better term for that, but I was trying to write quickly.

How are your private rights being taken away ? You can sacrifice dogs in your living room if that is part of your belief system. But if you start to put it on display publically, aren't you infringing on my right to believe what I want?

No, putting one's beliefs on display publicly does not constitute an infringement on your right to believe what you want. If you passed someone on the street who's wearing a burkha or a yamika, does that in any conceivable way prevent you from believing what you want? No.

And your logic doesn't work well when applied to speech, either. I happen to be a liberal; does that mean that conservatives aren't allowed to voice their opinion if I don't want to hear it? Absolutely not -- in fact, they have a First Amendment right to express those views. Is it inconsiderate for others to assume that you share their beliefs? Maybe. But your rights aren't being violated in any way by that sort of behavior.

[Corcaigh]

There will come a day, that people who just claim to believe in Jesus Christ will be sent to jail in the U.S., without even committing a crime or a violent act.

If you actually believe that, then there's a smiley for you.

:insane:

[PleaseBlitz]

Im about 3/4 done watching it. Its pretty hilarious. I especially liked the part at 28 minutes in where the lady was praying to God that the powerpoint presentation works....in Jesus' name we pray. :laugh:

[Zguy28]

Wouldn't dying to fight for Jesus go against everything HE DID when he was here?

When Jesus was being taken and they attacked the guard, didnt he stop them and allow himself to be killed? Shouldn't you live up to that?

Not a sermon, just a thought, from your neighborly atheist..

Yes. It was Constantine who popularized the "war for God" concept and humanity has never let go of it, for some reason.

Actually, many Christians don't share that view (although I don't agree with them ).

Basically it goes: when Jesus was in the garden, he stopped Peter's violence because He had to fulfill what was written about him (crucifixion), not because He was a pacifist in the strictest sense. A violent defense and rescue would kind of put the kabash on that don't you think?

In addition they take the passage from Luke 22 out of context to support use of the sword:

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."

"That is enough," he replied.

~Luke 22:36-38

But when looked at in the larger context, it is clear Jesus teachings are about sowing in peace, both spiritually and physically, by his followers, although Jesus message itself is divisive.

He even stated as much:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn

" 'a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -

a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'"

~Matthew 10:34-36

Paul sums up Jesus teaching superbly:

If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

~Romans 12:18 emphasis mine.

[Kosher Ham]

No, putting one's beliefs on display publicly does not constitute an infringement on your right to believe what you want. If you passed someone on the street who's wearing a burkha or a yamika, does that in any conceivable way prevent you from believing what you want? No.

And your logic doesn't work well when applied to speech, either. I happen to be a liberal; does that mean that conservatives aren't allowed to voice their opinion if I don't want to hear it? Absolutely not -- in fact, they have a First Amendment right to express those views. Is it inconsiderate for others to assume that you share their beliefs? Maybe. But your rights aren't being violated in any way by that sort of behavior.

I apologize, I should have been clearer. I was reading all three quotes together while posting. Certainly I am not offended by people expressing or even stating their religion.

I am offended when people try to force their religion on me, and expect me to actually answer my door when they come knocking.

And by rights, I mean my right to believe he is a dog killer, and even if it is for religion, I don't need to believe it. (He initally stated privately I believe)

[Predicto]

Im about 3/4 done watching it. Its pretty hilarious. I especially liked the part at 28 minutes in where the lady was praying to God that the powerpoint presentation works....in Jesus' name we pray. :laugh:

I don't find it hilarious. I find it sad.

If there were no kids there, just adults who wanted to be there, I might find it hilarious.

[Chachie]

Haven't gotten to watch the Youtube video (at work), so I won't comment further on what they are or not training for.

However, from the OP's original quote with which he took issue: "We need people in America who are ready to die for the cause of the Bible," I should point out the traditional concept of martyrdom in Christianity is much different than the same concept in Islam.

In Chrisitianity, it's about being willing to sacrifice one's self for the sake of the Gospel (i.e., the missionary to the headhunters in the Amazon, or the example of 11 of the 12 Apostles -- being killed for preaching the Gospel). There is no place for perpetuating violence in the name of the Gospel. It is pretty neatly summed up in John 15:13: "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

If it is the traditional sense of Christian martyrdom that they are instilling, I see no problem in that. If it's something different from that, they are completely wrong.

I'll have to watch the clip when I get home tonight.

There's a big difference between dying for Christ and killing for Christ. Apparently the Jesus Camp expects the latter from it's kids.

[Kosher Ham]

How many Jim Jones' can we have ?

[Corcaigh]

I don't find it hilarious. I find it sad.

If there were no kids there, just adults who wanted to be there, I might find it hilarious.

The kids would much prefer Vacation Bible Gun Camp.

EDIT: http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0703/biblecamp.html

[PleaseBlitz]

I don't find it hilarious. I find it sad.

If there were no kids there, just adults who wanted to be there, I might find it hilarious.

Well, you are a bit more serious of a person than i am. Im laughing my ass of over here.

[Chachie]

The rights of Christians to practice their own beliefs privately are gradually being taken away.

How so, Mick?

[cathartic-j]

I apologize, I should have been clearer. I was reading all three quotes together while posting. Certainly I am not offended by people expressing or even stating their religion. I am offended when people try to force their religion on me, and expect me to actually answer my door when they come knocking.

And by rights, I mean my right to believe he is a dog killer, and even if it is for religion, I don't need to believe it. (He initally stated privately I believe)

Okay, that makes more sense.

[endzone_dave]

I went to an evangelical service with my niece (who was a member) once. Pretty scary. The preacher spent 10 minutes just spewing hatred towards Catholics. Any church that teaches hates is bad. The preacher eventually got caught embezzling funds and that church dissolved. Fortunately, my niece is in a much less extremist church now.

[mjah]

Everybody seems to think their way of life is being attacked and marginalized by others.

People are occasionally shot in churches, which is tragic and horrifying. People are also occasionally shot in public high schools. And universities. And grocery stores. And malls. Historically, nobody has been immune to gun violence. It's all tragic and horrifying.

I don't see how that translates into Christianity coming under any particular attack. I don't buy the "war on Christmas" idiocy either, when from a neutral point of view it's often just the institution of equal time for other religions. And it's extremely disappointing to see some people dress their reactions to perceived "attacks" by putting the GI Joe wash on the issue with "Warriors for Jesus" and all of this battleground imagery. Especially these days.

All of the wartime imagery is just a recruiting ploy. Make people metaphorical soldiers in a metaphorical war, and suddenly it's easier to bring people along. Never mind what Jesus taught; apparently there's something more important to focus on.

"Jesus Camp" was terrifying, but it's a narrow look at a small segment of the Christian population. I think using it as some kind of referendum on the entire religion is lunacy. Still, this war imagery has to stop. It looks terrible and it's completely out of place. It just gives fuel to the folks who look at those "warriors" and consider them kooks.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

Im about 3/4 done watching it. Its pretty hilarious. I especially liked the part at 28 minutes in where the lady was praying to God that the powerpoint presentation works....in Jesus' name we pray. :laugh:

"Dear Lord, In the name of Jesus, don't let the electricity fail."

[chomerics]

The subtle signs are already appearing, if you look for them.

Christian holidays, are being de-christianized, and our society has made it taboo to say Merry Christmas, you can't even have a "Christmas Party" at work anymore, they've taken away the nativity scene from public places, they're started to remove "In God We Trust" from our money. Students are being forbidden to pray in schools. Laws are changing to limit the freedom of Christians. People are starting to go into churches on shooting rampages, killing innocent Christians, who are worshipping in private. We are gradually moving toward a society, and more importantly, a GOVERNMENT that detests and discriminates Christianity. Sure, some of these might seem small and insignificant, but anyone who looks over the past couple decades can see that this is gradually progressing

WOW, just WOW. . . I am completely astonished that you feel you are being persecuted, and you think that you are being persecuted.

When have people told you that you can't go to church? When have they said you can't worship who you want? When EVER has religion been "taken away" from you?

You seem to not understand the meaning behind our first amendment. You have been listening to the other side too much Mick, and no Christianity is not under attack. If they people don't want to have a Christian prayer, or Christian symbolism in a federally paid for area, then that is a good thing. I don't agree with ANY of our money going to any religion over another, treat them all as equals. Where is the outcry from removing the torah from our schools? From removing the statue of Buddha from our court houses? Oh wait, there are none of those things there, because if they were in those places, the Christians would be up in arms about it.

I am sick and tired of the so called Christians talking about how repressed they are in society because our society doesn't shove their religion down our children's throats like they want us to. If you want to raise your child to be Christian it is in your right to do so. It will never be taken away from you. Just because you hear the latest windbag talking about how Christians are repressed in society does not mean it is true. Just because you are not allowed to FORCE a class to say a prayer to god in school does not mean Christianity is being attacked, it means that people are finally starting to wake up and see the light. It means that places like Jesus Camp will be come less of an issue in the future. It means there will be less and less brainwashing and propaganda shoved down the throats of our youths by a bunch of perverted wackos.

Does anyone remember who Ted Haggard is? You know, the GAY person who was bashing gays in the Jesus Camp video???

There, you can see him there. Why on earth would I want people like that teaching my children? They are teaching hatred, teaching that homosexuality is bad, then going out and smoking some guys schlong after the taping is done. Is that who you want teaching your children? Not I that's for damn sure!