Report: Non-Muslims Deserve to Be Punished

[alexey]

And I'm saying that something like this cannot possibly evolve. Because its "evolution" still revolves around one arguably irrational and unreasonable thing, and that's the existence of God. I know, it's been talked about so much before, but again I ask the question, how can one possibly form such complexities over an idea that goes unproven.

Perhaps a desire to make sense of it drove that evolution.

[grego]

By allowing them to go to Hell if they don't worship Him. He is loving, indeed.

going with your premise for a moment, would you prefer God force you to spend eternity with him in 'heaven' even if you dont want to? or would you rather have a choice? which of the two is more loving?

again, not saying i agree totally with your stated premise, just asking.

[grego]

I think it's safe to say that I think both are irrational. But then what? Don't know, man. Wish I did.

thats a good, humble, honest answer.

[Larry]

thats a good, humble, honest answer.

Thank you shoe shine boy. You're humble and lovable.

[Jumbo]

Why, how very peaceful

And if we aren't careful about the riff raff we let into this country, we'll end up just like England.

And yet somehow, through all of that, we've ended up where we are today.

Speaking of peaceful + non-muslim nations...over 110,000 murders in the U.S. 2000-06....over 650,000 forcible rapes same period...over 6 million aggravated assaults same period...over 3.25 million robberies...holey moley, and that's not counting the last two years!

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Think of the hot soup we'd be in if we wuz Mooslim!

Thank God we are where we're at today! Thank Allah we are not up to our necks in cultural violence like the riff raff in England!

[BigMike619]

compare population numbers please. The murder numbers are pretty reasonable considering how many people live in America. And the rapes (thats bad) but at least they arent forced to be circumsized or becoming whores for a Prince who has his very own "rape rooms".

[techboy]

true but christianity still stems from judaism which had a nasty, mean, bitter, vengeful god, then christ came along and now God the same God is loving and forgiving????

and many have died at the hands of various sects of christians.....

yes jesus taught love and peace.... he was the original hippie..... too bad his movement lost his word a time or two.....

The first and third sentences are simply erroneous, and based on a pervasive misunderstanding of the nature of God in the Bible. (The second is sadly true).

William Lane Craig is one of my favorite Christian scholars, but he is also a highly respected philosopher and writer, and he wrote this a while back in response to a question.

As to the question your son asks, I must confess that I’ve never understood those who think that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament look different. I can’t help but think that such folks haven’t really read all of the Bible, but just parts of it and so have formed this misimpression. When you read the book of Ezekiel, for example, one can only be astonished at a God who would so demean Himself as to literally plead with people to repent so that He need not punish them! We have here the almost unseemly spectacle of the God of the universe begging sinful, rebellious people to turn from their wickedness, lest He be forced to judge them. You’d think He’d just annihilate the wretches! I’ve never ceased to be amazed at God as revealed by Ezekiel.

On the other hand, read a terrifying passage like Revelation 19.11-16 on Christ’s judgement of mankind. Nothing in the Old Testament equals this horrifying image of the great winepress of God’s wrath, crushing sinners like grapes. Jesus himself warned constantly of hell and urged people to find the narrow road that leads to salvation.

The best argument that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are one and the same is the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was himself a Jew, devoted to the God of the Old Testament, and did not consider Himself to be revealing anyone else but the God of the Old Testament as His Heavenly Father. To suggest that the God revealed by Jesus is different than the God we read about in the Old Testament is to contradict Jesus’ own belief and testimony. He didn’t think they were different or inconsistent, so why should we? Nor did any of the apostles, including Paul, all of them Jews, think that they were worshipping a God different than the God of their fathers. If they didn’t think so, why should we?

Perhaps the popular image of God’s being more judgmental in the Old Testament arises from the fact that in the Old Testament we have, at least for a time, a theocracy, where God was the head of the government. Society’s laws and God’s laws were the same. In such a circumstance the awful holiness of God is brought directly to bear on people’s sinful actions. We see how much God hates sin and what punishment it deserves in His eyes. But Israel ceased to be a theocracy. By the time of the New Testament Israel was under the rule of the Roman Empire. So what is moral and what is legal fall apart. Judgement is deferred until the general resurrection at end of history. Similarly, today we do not live under a theocracy. That’s why it’s a mistake when Christians try to make God’s laws the law of the land. What is immoral need not be illegal. For that reason, in arguing for the prohibition of certain actions, like abortion on demand, we cannot just quote the Bible but must develop non-sectarian arguments with a broad moral foundation. Anyway, it may be that a lack of understanding of the different circumstances has fostered this misimpression that God as revealed in the New Testament has mellowed in His view of sin.

As a libertarian, I also happen to really like the thought at the end about how it's a mistake to legislate God's laws.

In any case, God showed mercy in the Old Testament, and Jesus was anything but a hippie, as the sellers in the Temple could have attested.

[Henry]

for those of you not around at the time... best Henry slap ever:

followed by...

followed by:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130916&highlight=monk

:laugh: :notworthy

Zoony, you're still new to the whole staff thing so let me tell you how it works. YOU'RE the mod and I'm the regular guy. I have to kiss up to YOU now.

So ... uh ... great posting in this thread man. I'm learning a lot.

[Thiebear]

This isn't from the 1600's

Religious leaders urge courts to ignore West, hang Christian

Friday, March 24, 2006

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Senior Muslim clerics are demanding that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."

In an unusual move, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned President Hamid Karzai on Thursday seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case of Abdul Rahman. The 41-year-old former medical aid worker faces the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for becoming a Christian.

His trial has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.

"He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian," said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque. "The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed."

Raoulf, who is a member of the country's main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, concurred. "The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled."

"Cut off his head!" he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. "We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left."

He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile.

But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."

The clerics said they were angry with the United States and other countries for pushing for Rahman's freedom.

"We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don't interfere in this issue," Nasri said. "We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Sharia law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.

Like i said, not a lot of wiggle room.

[Jumbo]

compare population numbers please.

Oh, c'mon BM. You don't think I'd have done that? :laugh:

You do it now.

You'll find the ratios support the point.

I'm sure not everyone will get the real point I'm making anyway. But a few will.

[stevenaa]

(Wondering why this post makes me think of all of the people who think gays shouldn't have equal rights in the US, because being gay is against their religion. Don't know why, but they seem similar.)

Yes, I can see a definate comparison to espousing the Rape and Murder of families of unbelievers to not allowing gay couples to marry. :doh: You're pathetic.

[grego]

The first and third sentences are simply erroneous, and based on a pervasive misunderstanding of the nature of God in the Bible. (The second is sadly true).

i'd no sooner say a person was a vegetarian if they told me they were, yet i saw them dining on a filet mignon, than i would say a person was a christian who turned around and tortured and killed people in the name of christ. the title and the actions are antithetical and its used only as a convenient, self serving label.

[headexplode]

going with your premise for a moment, would you prefer God force you to spend eternity with him in 'heaven' even if you dont want to? or would you rather have a choice? which of the two is more loving?

again, not saying i agree totally with your stated premise, just asking.

I'd rather be able to opt out of the whole eternity thing, altogether.

I find it hard to conceive of someone actually choosing to go to Hell, to suffer and burn for eternity. Besides, no one chooses but God. He makes the final call based on whether or not one worships him, regardless of what kind of person one may be. The only love I see in that is God's narcissism. Even if one were to follow all of god's commandments but the most important one, to put God above all else in the world, and to sing his praises and spend one's days and nights in submissive veneration, one still would be doomed to eternal hellfire. I find that utterly disgusting. Any god that would allow his "children" to suffer like that is not a loving, benevolent force, but a callous, shallow despot with too much time on his hands.

God never takes the blame for the problems of the world. We do. Do we not blame Dr. Frankenstein for the monster he created?

[techboy]

Since no one else stepped forward, I will. That list of Qu'ranic verses posted earlier is a joke. Those verses are very likely taken completely out of context, with no view to how they are viewed by the Muslim community, or what Muslim scholars have to say about them.

For instance, there is apparently a doctrine in Islam where later verses supersede previous verses. Does that list indicate where those verses fall within that doctrine? Are there later verses that might modify the Muslim view?

If you want to know what Islam teaches, ask a Muslim.

Not a Buddhist, or a Christian, or a Jew.

Now, for the articles where actual Muslims are quoted, that's a different matter, but even then I think we need to acknowledge that there are different viewpoints within Islam, and we need to check with other scholars to see if their viewpoints match. Do most Imams teach similar things?

Keep in mind that there are whackos in every religion. Frankly, I'd prefer my faith not to be judged by Zguy28's writings*, and I think Islam deserves the same courtesy.

*This, of course, is a joke. Zguy28 can't write.

[alexey]

Since no one else stepped forward, I will. That list of Qu'ranic verses posted earlier is a joke. Those verses are very likely taken completely out of context, with no view to how they are viewed by the Muslim community, or what Muslim scholars have to say about them.

Sorry for lack of specifics, but I do remember reading somewhere that there is a whole chapter on how Muslims should wage war if they are attacked. In that context a "disbeliever" would refer to the aggressor.

These things can be misinterpreted, of course, and as we all know they do get misinterpreted (by both Muslims and Sarges).

[grego]

I'd rather be able to opt out of the whole eternity thing, altogether.

I find it hard to conceive of someone actually choosing to go to Hell, to suffer and burn for eternity. Besides, no one chooses but God. He makes the final call based on whether or not one worships him, regardless of what kind of person one may be.

according to the bible, we are actually given the choice to accept or reject God. of course, not many would choose to go to hell. instead, we have reasons to not believe, in essence, rejecting God. i think its interesting to hear reasons 'why' people reject the bible. i think it was thomas huxley who wrote about the feeling of liberty and sense of relief he felt when he was convinced there was no god.

The only love I see in that is God's narcissism. Even if one were to follow all of god's commandments but the most important one, to put God above all else in the world, and to sing his praises and spend one's days and nights in submissive veneration, one still would be doomed to eternal hellfire. I find that utterly disgusting. Any god that would allow his "children" to suffer like that is not a loving, benevolent force, but a callous, shallow despot with too much time on his hands.

if i felt like that was an accurate portrayal of the biblical God, i would reject him too.

[Air Force Cane]

My only reaction is that it is hilarious reading supporters of Reverend Jeremiah Wright and Obama

discussing the finer merits of hate speech in religious institutions around the world. At least you know something about hatred from the pulpit!

[grego]

That list of Qu'ranic verses posted earlier is a joke. Those verses are very likely taken completely out of context,

the list is a 'joke' but they are 'very likely' taken out of context? are they or arent they? what does hadith say about killing 'infidels'?

If you want to know what Islam teaches, ask a Muslim.

Not a Buddhist, or a Christian, or a Jew.

i would ask muslims, muslim critics, as well as religious scholars of other religions. and i would read the quran and hadith. you could ask 20 muslims th same question and get 20 answers- just as you could with any religion.

there are different viewpoints within Islam, and we need to check with other scholars to see if their viewpoints match. Do most Imams teach similar things?

i think thats what i was saying as well.

[headexplode]

My only reaction is that it is hilarious reading supporters of Reverend Jeremiah Wright and Obama

discussing the finer merits of hate speech in religious institutions around the world. At least you know something about hatred from the pulpit!

"Fighting for peace is like raping for virginity."

:laugh: :laugh:

I'm starting to like Wright more and more.

[Sarge]

Speaking of peaceful + non-muslim nations...over 110,000 murders in the U.S. 2000-06....over 650,000 forcible rapes same period...over 6 million aggravated assaults same period...over 3.25 million robberies...holey moley, and that's not counting the last two years!

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Think of the hot soup we'd be in if we wuz Mooslim!

Thank God we are where we're at today! Thank Allah we are not up to our necks in cultural violence like the riff raff in England!

Actually, crime in islamic countries is almost non-existant in some cases. Know why?

Because if you get caught doing certain things, you lose your hand

Hell of a deterent

As for the crimes you listed above, I'd venture to say they were not committed under one ideology, nor were they committed by getting inspration from a certain book.

Your turn

[Predicto]

My only reaction is that it is hilarious reading supporters of Reverend Jeremiah Wright and Obama

discussing the finer merits of hate speech in religious institutions around the world. At least you know something about hatred from the pulpit!

no new threads :laugh:

[Zguy28]

no new threads :laugh:

I know. It must really suck for him. He has to post totally unrelated hack in random threads. :laugh:

[techboy]

the list is a 'joke' but they are 'very likely' taken out of context? are they or arent they?

It's a joke because they are very likely taken out of context, much as people like to do with the Bible. I could also have used the adjectives "worthless", "silly", "ridiculous", etc. The phrase "a joke" was intended to express my contempt for the level of attempt at understanding of the teachings of the Qu'ran.

I used the phrase "very likely" because I'm not a Muslim either, and so can't be certain that they're out of context, but having read similar treatments of the Bible, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on.

I don't appreciate it when non-Christians attempt to take out-of-context bullets out of the Bible in an attempt to prove some point (or Christians, for that matter), and I'd like to extend the same courtesy to Muslims.

I always find it really odd when people not of a faith try to tell people of a faith what their faith really says. Why would an atheist tell me that my interpreatation of the Bible is wrong? Why should a non-Muslim tell a Muslim that his reading of the Qu'ran is off?

That's silly for two reasons: First, the non-believer rarely has the perspective and depth of knowledge to properly read such texts in context, and second, even if that person is "right", who cares? It's how the faith is actually practiced that counts in the real world, not what it says in theory.

[grego]

It's a joke because they are very likely taken out of context, much as people like to do with the Bible.

ok, but i think the verses pretty much mean what they say. and i'm a huge fan of context. the reason i say that is that if you read the hadith and biographies of mohammed, you'll see that he was a sort of military leader who lead a religion that spread by force. there are stories of him ordering a families' house burned down with them in it cuz they didnt get up for morning prayer. he was pretty brutal- and these stories were written by his followers, not his enemies.

i understand people take things out of context with the bible all the time. in this case, however, i think the context supports the ideas rather than refutes them. hence, bin laden, et al, feel like they are doing allahs work- by emulating their prophet.

thats why i say when someone claiming to be a christian does something like killing and torturing people (hitler was the example eariler in the thread), its ridiculous, as that kind of thing is completely opposed to anything christ ever taught.

I always find it really odd when people not of a faith try to tell people of a faith what their faith really says. Why would an atheist tell me that my interpreatation of the Bible is wrong? Why should a non-Muslim tell a Muslim that his reading of the Qu'ran is off?

i understand what youre saying. i still try to be objective with these things, including biblical passages. members of a religion may skew things to benefit their persective, while critics will do the opposite. sometimes the truth is somewhere in between the two sides.

[Jumbo]

Actually, crime in islamic countries is almost non-existant in some cases. Know why? Sunshine, outdoor markets, convenient parking, less freeway stress?

Because if you get caught doing certain things, you lose your hand. Certain things--are talking about masturbating? :confused:

Hell of a deterent. I dunno, If you really wanted to, wouldn't you just use the other hand?

As for the crimes you listed above, I'd venture to say they were not committed under one ideology, nor were they committed by getting inspration from a certain book. Right. So now Harry Potter is not a book.

Your turn. Got any sevens?