zoony Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Zoony: So, Snyder finally brings in a football guy to run the franchise, and that still doesn't make you happy? I don't think anyone short of Ron Wolf in the position would make you happy. Results and integrity make me happy. Snyder has neither. But continue to make excuses for him... I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted November 13, 2006 Author Share Posted November 13, 2006 The way to be thinking about this scenario is that Marty should have been here in Jan of 2004... establishing a winner... and JG would not have even been approached for the job. i've always said that firing marty was his worst mistake. but that has zero bearing on the issue i raise.....gibbs has had 3 years, carte blanche. he hasn't gotten it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I think he's saying giving him control of EVERYTHING after 15 years was a mistake But didn't he have complete control over his NASCAR team? His Gibbs 1 NFL success transfered over to NASCAR. The real problem is that save for a "5 in a row or we don't go" streak last year, it hasn't transferred back to Gibbs 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 like how you put brunell in there, but left out buges and vinny. whatever works for you. Did you actually read what I wrote? I mentioned all of those guys. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlinginSammy HOF '63 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Well of course not... but hindsight is 20-20.The way to be thinking about this scenario is that Marty should have been here in Jan of 2004... establishing a winner... and JG would not have even been approached for the job. I felt like Marty should have gotten a second year to turn it around. San Diego has been patient with him and now look at them. One of the best teams in the AFC. But as far as I remember I thought Marty's firing was because he refused to give up personel hiring. Something to that effect but I still feel strongly that he was cut because Snyder had a woody for SOS and Stevie was finally ready to leave the college world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted November 13, 2006 Author Share Posted November 13, 2006 Did you actually read what I wrote? I mentioned all of those guys.Jason i wasn't responding to your opinion, i was responding to the part where you insinuated that i said brunell was the only problem, when i, in fact, mentioned others. but you conveniently left them out when you quoted me. Cartman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCsportsfan53 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 The salary cap, pure and simple. Minnesota and NY offered contracts that we couldn't match. It is as simple as that. Yet, fans don't like that answer. They like to pretend that the cap doesn't exist for us.It certainly sounds like you are. Jason You MAY have a case to say that in the case of Pierce (he wasn't that expensive, it coudl've been done) but most certainly NOT in the case of Clark. With all the money we spent, 30 mil on an inferior safety minus the leadership and smarts, and the cap space we still have left, we SURELY could have afforded 7 mil for 5 years with 1.65 guaranteed. His agent stated that if the Redskins had, at any time during 05, made a similar offer that he'd still be a Redskin. Who's responsible for falling for those decisions? It seems to me it's got be either GW or Joe, either way Gibbs at least signed off on it. I'm not trying to condemn Gibbs, zoony may be right that he was simply asked (asked himself) to do more than possible given his time away. I don't want to see Gibbs fired or retire and I want him to stay longer than the 2 years he has left. But Major is right, Gibbs does bear a lion's share of the responsibility for the way the team looks right now and the direction it's taken and he's made some uncharacteristic mistakes. I wish I knew why that was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 And I think it is worth mentioning that the very fact that Snyder consistently has put himself in a position where he reaps 10000 percent of the profit but none of the blame speaks volumes about him as a leader... and as a person. Do you have proof of this, or just speculation? Dan isn't SUPPOSED to be a stong leader. He's supposed to hire the right people to run the team and organization. Would you rather have Jerry Jones or Al Davis, the assistant coach type owner, or Dan Snyder the guy who will do anything and hire anyone to produce a winner? So far I've seen a Redskins team that struggled to find an identity under the first few Snyder years, then he hired Gibbs and we started to establish some form of chemistry and identity and carried that into the playoffs last year. Everyone, myself included, thought the Skins were back and Danny was the hero for bringing Gibbs back. Now we fire up the free agent jet in 2006 and regress back to 2004 form and it's Danny's fault? I'm not seeing the logic in that. Danny put Gibbs in charge of this stuff. Gibbs doesn't turn to Danny for leadership. If anything, Dan turns to Gibbs for that. Danny just signs checks and listens to Gibbs on football decisions. Should Danny be the GM, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Results and integrity make me happy.Snyder has neither. But continue to make excuses for him... I'm done. Serious question zoony. Can you bring yourself to find fault in, or with Joe Gibbs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 gibbs has had 3 years, carte blanche. he hasn't gotten it done. Calling out Gibbs for this mess is like commenting on a :pooh: floating on top of a river of raw sewage. Sure, the :pooh: stinks... but will removing it matter? ( :doh: it's getting late... terrible analogy buy you know what I'm sayin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted November 13, 2006 Author Share Posted November 13, 2006 Calling out Gibbs for this mess is like commenting on a :pooh: floating on top of a river of raw sewage.Sure, the :pooh: stinks... but will removing it matter? ( :doh: it's getting late... terrible analogy buy you know what I'm sayin) no, it'd be more like blaming the guy that was given the task of cleaning up the sewage plant, given everything he needed to do it, and just didn't get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Serious question zoony. Can you bring yourself to find fault in, or with Joe Gibbs? Absolutely I do... Gibbs' has refused to note the changes to the modern game... most notably that the "any old QB, as long as you protect him will do" philosophy is simply not true in today's game. Gibbs should have taken a page out of the Marvin Lewis / Bellicheck playbook... found that franchise QB in year 1, and started developing him ASAP. But he didn't... he hitched his horse to Brunell... and it will be the downfall of Gibbs II. I made the point somewhere else though... in a strong organization... in an organization where things are 'done right'... there are checks and balances in place to ensure these kinds of mistakes don't happen. i.e. a GM, etc. But this organization has none of that. Which is why, although I hold Gibbs' accountable for his performance, I ultimately blame Snyder. See my :pooh: analogy above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebowski Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I felt like Marty should have gotten a second year to turn it around. San Diego has been patient with him and now look at them. One of the best teams in the AFC. But as far as I remember I thought Marty's firing was because he refused to give up personel hiring. Something to that effect but I still feel strongly that he was cut because Snyder had a woody for SOS and Stevie was finally ready to leave the college world. HUGE difference: Shotty (and I like him) has nothing to do with personell in SD. He refused to give that up here. You can't say he would have the same success here. SD knew he wasn't a good personell guy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Calling out Gibbs for this mess is like commenting on a :pooh: floating on top of a river of raw sewage.Sure, the :pooh: stinks... but will removing it matter? ( :doh: it's getting late... terrible analogy buy you know what I'm sayin) Huh? Gibbs is my hero, but he created this mess, not Snyder. Gibbs was on the right track at the end of '04, staying away from bigtime free agents, and looking for young talent that fit the team. He got away from that this past offseason and blew the chemistry he had created last season. Maybe you could blame Snyder for being an enabler, but is was Gibbs who tried to buy a superbowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Gibbs should have taken a page out of the Marvin Lewis / Bellicheck playbook... found that franchise QB in year 1, and started developing him ASAP. But he didn't... he hitched his horse to Brunell... and it will be the downfall of Gibbs II. Ramsey was to be that franchise QB. Something we realy haven't had since Joey T. (See trio's Open Letter thread on this). But Ramsey turned out to....well, go back to your :pooh: analogy above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCsportsfan53 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 But didn't he have complete control over his NASCAR team? His Gibbs 1 NFL success transfered over to NASCAR. The real problem is that save for a "5 in a row or we don't go" streak last year, it hasn't transferred back to Gibbs 2.0 Well, he did in Nascar, but in Gibbs 1.0 he didn't have this kind of control. It can be hard to separate a coaches mentality, which is live today and win this week, from a GM's mentality of planning for the future and long term outlook, which may involve taking one step back to take 2 forward. It wouldn't be the first head coach, or first great head coach, who struggled mightly once given full personnel control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I felt like Marty should have gotten a second year to turn it around. San Diego has been patient with him and now look at them. One of the best teams in the AFC. But as far as I remember I thought Marty's firing was because he refused to give up personel hiring. Something to that effect but I still feel strongly that he was cut because Snyder had a woody for SOS and Stevie was finally ready to leave the college world. Close. Marty refused togive up personel that he thought he had in his contract. He didn't have a personel clause. Dan allowed him to clean house at the beginning of his first season, but wanted to give those duties to someone else besides his head coach. That's what caused the split from Marty Ball to the Fun & Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Well, he did in Nascar, but in Gibbs 1.0 he didn't have this kind of control. It can be hard to separate a coaches mentality, which is live today and win this week, from a GM's mentality of planning for the future and long term outlook, which may involve taking one step back to take 2 forward. It wouldn't be the first head coach, or first great head coach, who struggled mightly once given full personnel control. I agree with you that in Gibbs 1.0 he didn't. However in NASCAR he did. And now in Gibbs 2.0 he does. I'd think that his mentality is to still win both now & in the future. But by bringing in Saunders, we've definately taken a step back in order to take two forward. Again, this year just reminds me way to much of Year One in Gibbs 2.0 None of us are happy with where we are. Will this step back pay off? We won't know until Joe's contract is up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Gibbs made huge mistakes this off-season. 1. Letting Ryan Clark go 2. Signing Archuleta to be the highest paid safety in the league. 3. Letting the QB coach walk. Should have kept him around. Brunell played better with Musgrave around. 4. Hiring Al Saunders. Gibbs broke franchise records last year with Portis and Moss. His sytem was fine and the players loved it. Gibbs should have added a receiver or two and called it a day. None of the above has anything to do with Snyder. He hired Gibbs to make the above decisions and Gibbs made them. Gibbs fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCsportsfan53 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I agree with you that in Gibbs 1.0 he didn't. However in NASCAR he did. And now in Gibbs 2.0 he does.I'd think that his mentality is to still win both now & in the future. But by bringing in Saunders, we've definately taken a step back in order to take two forward. Again, this year just reminds me way to much of Year One in Gibbs 2.0 None of us are happy with where we are. Will this step back pay off? We won't know until Joe's contract is up. That's what worries me. Considering that Campbell hasn't seen the field yet, the o-line concerns and needed restocking of the defense those 2 steps forward look to be about 2 years off. So what does that mean? Will Gibbs extend his contract or will we have to start all over again right when it should be coming together? I just don't see how everything can come together in the time Gibbs has left unless he stays longer than 5 years. I mean, I think it's safe to assume we aren't winning a Super Bowl with Brunell, right? Likewise, the chances of Campbell being ready for a run are awfully slim in his first two years as a starter, right? Scary to think about. I really hope Gibbs sees it through and stays beyond the original 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Gibbs is a shell of his former self. The magic is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 30 Second Time Out. There's been a few threads tonight that have actually reminded me of ES pre-merger when we actually had thought out discusions here. For those of you that have helped contribute to that, I thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaDRoc Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Gibbs is a shell of his former self. The magic is gone. I ain't giving up on Gibbs II, but it is starting to look bleek... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted November 13, 2006 Author Share Posted November 13, 2006 30 Second Time Out.There's been a few threads tonight that have actually reminded me of ES pre-merger when we actually had thought out discusions here. For those of you that have helped contribute to that, I thank you. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSkins28 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 What bothers me most about Gibbs' decisions is that in two blow-out losses this year, Campbell has not seen any time on the field. Well, if you don't want to start him yet, what time is better to get some reps in a game situation than in a blow-out loss? At some point, they've got to get Campbell on the field this year. They need to see if he's worth the picks they spent on him. I don't understand the logic of not starting him, then making him sit on the bench when the game is far out of hand. How does that translate into him getting better as a quarterback who probably will be the starter next year? It worries me that Gibbs does not see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.