Anything MMA, except thumb wrestling

[#98QBKiller]

I think it's important to keep in mind that he made a mistake and got caught in a tri by a world-class dude in ground game. Fedor didn't get beat up or KOed or choked out. He committed a tactical error and had to tap. Not the same as being dominated.

Very true. I've been thinking about this as well. He didn't get pistol-whipped by Werdum. He's not getting KTFO like Chuck Liddell is and he doesn't appear to be completely losing his touch like a lot of other fighters that have been around as long as him. He made a mistake by jumping into a two-time ADCC champ's guard and he had to tap out. I still think Fedor wins that fight 9 out of 10 times.

And as far as the UFC HW's go, I don't think any of them would have an easy time beating Fedor and I would probably only give Brock the benefit of the doubt at this point. And even then, we've seen him tap out to Frank Mir, with Fedor's Sambo background he could have Brock on the ground in a leglock in a flash.

I honestly hope that this loss helps push Fedor over into the UFC. Just beating a few guys like Carwin, Dos Santos and Cain would cement his legacy. And especially if he beat Brock.

And on another note, Machida, BJ Penn, and Fedor have all lost in the last few months. That's three out of the top 5 P4P guys in the world. Only GSP and Anderson are still on a roll.

[KDawg]

Brock and/or Carwin would beat Fedor. I've said it a few times and I'll say it again. Combination of their skills with his age would do him in. I've said it for awhile now. But then again, I'm a Lesnar fan so I've also been biased the whole time

[Samuels]

Brock and/or Carwin would beat Fedor. I've said it a few times and I'll say it again. Combination of their skills with his age would do him in. I've said it for awhile now. But then again, I'm a Lesnar fan so I've also been biased the whole time

It has nothing to do with age. The fighters nowadays have better training and are getting bigger,faster and stronger.. You could send Brock back 5 years in time and he would take them down and maul any of the pride guys Mirko,Nog,Fedor,Barnett any of them sure someone could pull a sub outta thier ass but 9 outta 10 times he would win by control.. Fedors pride wins to me are'nt that impressive even LIDDELL one of my favorite fighters ever his wins just are'nt that impressive he beat guys because they were style fights..

Carwin is the only guy who i think has a legit chance to beat Brock if he can stay off his back which is'nt likely.. Carwins gotta hope his wrestling background can keep it standing to have any chance..

[NoCalMike]

I still think Fedor is probably the best HW in the world overall, but that doesn't mean he couldn't get beat by a guy like Lesnar. Considering Lesnar is probably close to 285 pounds when the bell rings, that means Fedor is at about a 50+ pound disadvantage against a guy like Fedor, or even Carwin, but just stop with "Lesnar has better skills than Fedor" nonsense. It just shows your lack of knowledge and time put into this sport.

I mean honestly, by UFC standards, Fedor is closer to being a LHW than a Heavyweight, just because of how huge heavyweights are getting. If guys keep showing up and fighting at over 250 lbs regularly, there really should either be a SUPER heavyweight division, or they should be forced to cut weight just like everyone in every other weight division does.

As far as Fedor losing, it almost looks like he though Werdum went down due to damage rather then just being off-balance. If you watch the fight, listen to the commentators, they to announced it like Werdum went down due to strikes, when really he was more off balance and fell backwards while avoiding strikes awkwardly. Maybe Fedor thought he had punched in and went in for the kill pre-maturely. Either way, he got caught everyone does and now he joins the club of every other professional MMA fighter, which is that of having at least 1 mark in the LOSS column.

Edited June 28, 2010 by NoCalMike

[NoCalMike]

I don't understand the obsession with Brock...and these "skills" people say he possesses. He has an amateur wrestling background, which is legit, no one questions that, and he is close to 300 lbs. So far, through his four, yes four fights we haven't seen him much evidence of what he can or can't do besides realize that because of his size advantage, if he gets on top of you, you will have a hell of a time trying to get him off of you and he will probably ground and pound you into oblivion.

I know since Fedor just lost, it opens the floodgates for the "Fedor's overrated" "Fedor's always been overrated" "So and So could beat Fedor easily" nonsense, because everyone knows in MMA, all it takes is one loss and people instantly forget about anything else from you're career.

Hell, Couture is still Main Eventing UFC shows and he has a nearly .500 record.

Maybe a loss is something Fedor could find useful, we have never seen what kind of motivation he will have in training coming off of a loss. And like he said himself after the fight "A man who has never fallen, can never truly stand" or something like that. LOL.

[KDawg]

Fedor is at about a 50+ pound disadvantage against a guy like Fedor, or even Carwin, but just stop with "Lesnar has better skills than Fedor" nonsense. It just shows your lack of knowledge and time put into this sport.

Who has said Brock has better skills than Fedor?

I think Brock is more animalistic than Fedor. His skills can keep him alive against Fedor if Fedor somehow gets him down... But chances are Lesnar would maul him before Fedor had a chance. He's too big and powerful.

Edited June 28, 2010 by KDawg

[ZoEd]

I've said all along Brock would maul Fedor and honestly i'd give Carwin,Cain V in a few others a good shot at beating him... Lets be real here all of the fighters nowadays are alot more skilled then just 4-5 years ago we can use the excuse that alot of them are getting past thier prime if you want..

I don't think he'd maul Fedor by any stretch of the imagination. Fedor would have never been tapped if he wouldn't have gotten overzealous and went where he had no business being. If Randy Couture can make Brock rubber legged with a punch Fedor would send his ass to the mat. Let's not get all stupid because Fedor finally lost a fight.

[ZoEd]

http://www.sherdog.com/videos/recent/Coker-on-Immediate-Fedor-Werdum-Rematch-Strikeforce-Middleweights-2508

Coker is so much easier to like than Dana White. If Dana wasn't such a tool I'd actually probably quit hating on Anderson Silva.

[ZoEd]

Brock and/or Carwin would beat Fedor. I've said it a few times and I'll say it again. Combination of their skills with his age would do him in. I've said it for awhile now. But then again, I'm a Lesnar fan so I've also been biased the whole time

Well actually KDawg you said it.

No one in their right mind would say that Brock Lesnar's skill set is better than Fedor's, no way in hell. What Brock does have is superior size and strength with good wrestling. I mean a 300lb guy dropping hammer fists is like a 230lb guy throwing hooks. Brock is mauling people on size, not skill.

[KDawg]

Well actually KDawg you said it.

No one in their right mind would say that Brock Lesnar's skill set is better than Fedor's, no way in hell. What Brock does have is superior size and strength with good wrestling. I mean a 300lb guy dropping hammer fists is like a 230lb guy throwing hooks. Brock is mauling people on size, not skill.

No, I didn't. Read it again. Although it's not worded clearly, that's not what it meant.

Lesnar is not more skilled than Fedor. But his skill level, combined with Fedor's age (and weight disadvantage) does him in.

That's what that meant. Not that Lesnar is more skilled.

[#98QBKiller]

The only thing that Lesnar has for sure on Fedor is a significant size advantage. He may be a better wrestler but Fedor is a high-level Judo practitioner which is just as dominant (if not more) in the clinch than wrestling is. Lesnar is clearly inferior in every other facet of the game. IF he gets Fedor down and passes his guard, Fedor is in trouble. But Brock is at a distinct disadvantage standing with Fedor and on the ground with Fedor. All of these observations go for every other gigantic wrestler in the UFC's HW division. Brock, Cain, Carwin. They're big wrestlers with mediocre ground games and questionable standup. Carwin has the one-hitter quitter but he's not a technical striker by any stretch of the imagination. I'd take Fedor over anyone in the UFC's HW division, even Brock. But I admit that Brock has the best chance of beating him out of anyone.

Edited June 28, 2010 by #98QBKiller

[ZoEd]

The only thing that Lesnar has for sure on Fedor is a significant size advantage. He may be a better wrestler but Fedor is a high-level Judo practitioner which is just as dominant (if not more) in the clinch than wrestling is. Lesnar is clearly inferior in every other facet of the game. IF he gets Fedor down and passes his guard, Fedor is in trouble. But Brock is at a distinct disadvantage standing with Fedor and on the ground with Fedor. All of these observations go for every other gigantic wrestler in the UFC's HW division. Brock, Cain, Carwin. They're big wrestlers with mediocre ground games and questionable standup. Carwin has the one-hitter quitter but he's not a technical striker by any stretch of the imagination. I'd take Fedor over anyone in the UFC's HW division, even Brock. But I admit that Brock has the best chance of beating him out of anyone.

Guess now that Fedor is human the only way to find out is for Fedor to come to the UFC and beat some ass. Like I said before, hopefully this will prompt M-1 to come to the UFC.

[#98QBKiller]

Guess now that Fedor is human the only way to find out is for Fedor to come to the UFC and beat some ass. Like I said before, hopefully this will prompt M-1 to come to the UFC.

I think the loss could be a good thing for the fans. M-1 doesn't have the leverage they once had in marketing Fedor as an unbeaten "phenom." I'm hoping this makes them cave and puts him in the UFC.

Another thing I'd like to add is, I don't think this loss takes away from Fedor being the best HW MMAist of all time. I know people have argued on here that Brock would beat him, which is a valid argument (although I don't agree with it) and no one has said it here, but I've seen idiots on other forums say that Fedor isn't the best HW of all-time anymore which is garbage.

[Chachie]

I agree with those who say Lesnar would beat Fedor at this stage in their careers but I don't know why this has to also mean Fedor is not the best MMA HW ever. If Brock beats Fedor some day, he'll need to stay on top for 10 years to go down in history as being "better" than the Last Emperor.

(However, Lesnar will have to win this saturday night to get any kind of "best" mentioned with his name... and even then it will be in the current category, not all-time.)

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I'm trying to figure out who is saying Fedor isn't the greatest HW ever. Hell, who is saying he isn't the best MMA fighter ever? It's clear cut, people. Fighters get caught, they have average to bad training camps, they have unsatisfactory mindsets going in to fights, they have injuries, illnesses, they make mistakes. Fedor has been a victim of all of those at certain points of his career.

Whoever said MMA fighters are evolving is correct. They cross-train better these days, but it doesn't make them awesome in particular disciplines. Fedor is ahead of his time. He has ridiculous standup, a ridiculous clinch game, and a ridiculous ground game. For some reason, before MMA really got big at all, he wanted to kick everyone's ass on the planet. He's the total package. Let's not get lost on who beat him in what essentially became a jiu jitsu match where he started in his opponent's guard. Remember when Mark Hunt caught him in a really bad kimura? Could you imagine what would have happened to Fedor's "mystique" if he tapped? 32-3, losses by illegal cut, triangle by an ADCC Champion, and kimura by an offensive lineman. **** happens.

A Serra will catch a St. Pierre, a Chonan will catch an Anderson Silva. Hell, nobody really likes to think about when Anderson almost got pounded out by Travis Lutter a couple years ago. Now these two fighters "fight smart"...which is doing nothing but driving more people to watch that crap on a stream. Anderson Silva is a piece of ****. Sorry, he can try kicking my ass for saying that if he wants to, but I've saved enough money for a shotty not ordering his fights anymore. Bring it.

Fedor is must-see-TV. He fights all-out with every tool in his toolbox. He will standup with a prime Cro Cop and Gary Goodridge, he will clinch up and submit a Judo silver medalist and the "Godfather of Ground and Pound." He will fall in to the guard of an ADCC World Champion. It's like he goes in there with absolutely no game plan as if some random mother****er was attacking his mom on the street. If anything about Fedor makes him great, it's his mindset. Numbness, extreme focus, almost to the point of being psychotic. It's like he's already accepted death. There's nothing to lose in his mind.

Look at other fighters with that all-out mentality. Kevin Randleman, Phil Baroni, Wanderlei Silva. They all take bad losses. The difference is Fedor's focus and skillset is through the roof, while those guys get anxious, pissed off, hesitant, frustrated and just want to go Tazmanian Devil throughout the arena. It's a mindset and skillset like Fedor's that is the blueprint for years to come.

Edited June 29, 2010 by d0ublestr0ker0ll

[NoCalMike]

I'm trying to figure out who is saying Fedor isn't the greatest HW ever. Hell, who is saying he isn't the best MMA fighter ever? It's clear cut, people. Fighters get caught, they have average to bad training camps, they have unsatisfactory mindsets going in to fights, they have injuries, illnesses, they make mistakes. Fedor has been a victim of all of those at certain points of his career.

Whoever said MMA fighters are evolving is correct. They cross-train better these days, but it doesn't make them awesome in particular disciplines. Fedor is ahead of his time. He has ridiculous standup, a ridiculous clinch game, and a ridiculous ground game. For some reason, before MMA really got big at all, he wanted to kick everyone's ass on the planet. He's the total package. Let's not get lost on who beat him in what essentially became a jiu jitsu match where he started in his opponent's guard. Remember when Mark Hunt caught him in a really bad kimura? Could you imagine what would have happened to Fedor's "mystique" if he tapped? 32-3, losses by illegal cut, triangle by an ADCC Champion, and kimura by an offensive lineman. **** happens.

A Serra will catch a St. Pierre, a Chonan will catch an Anderson Silva. Hell, nobody really likes to think about when Anderson almost got pounded out by Travis Lutter a couple years ago. Now these two fighters "fight smart"...which is doing nothing but driving more people to watch that crap on a stream. Anderson Silva is a piece of ****. Sorry, he can try kicking my ass for saying that if he wants to, but I've saved enough money for a shotty not ordering his fights anymore. Bring it.

Fedor is must-see-TV. He fights all-out with every tool in his toolbox. He will standup with a prime Cro Cop and Gary Goodridge, he will clinch up and submit a Judo silver medalist and the "Godfather of Ground and Pound." He will fall in to the guard of an ADCC World Champion. It's like he goes in there with absolutely no game plan as if some random mother****er was attacking his mom on the street. If anything about Fedor makes him great, it's his mindset. Numbness, extreme focus, almost to the point of being psychotic. It's like he's already accepted death. There's nothing to lose in his mind.

Look at other fighters with that all-out mentality. Kevin Randleman, Phil Baroni, Wanderlei Silva. They all take bad losses. The difference is Fedor's focus and skillset is through the roof, while those guys get anxious, pissed off, hesitant, frustrated and just want to go Tazmanian Devil throughout the arena. It's a mindset and skillset like Fedor's that is the blueprint for years to come.

This.

If Brock gets pounded out by Carwin on Saturday then what will all of his apologists say, that Carwin is the best HW in the world now?

This is the sport of MMA, the BEST fighters lose. It happens. However this sport due to it's sudden and rapid growth has taken on about 100x the amount of fans in the last five or so years who were not around when there was a big time player in the sports besides UFC, who have no frame of reference when it comes to looking at a fighter's body of work instead of merely his last two or three fights, and lastly started watching UFC to see if their WWE hero Brock Lesnar could become a legit fighter and beat up all the UFC guys. That doesn't mean everyone who is a Lesnar fan fits into all the above categories, but just visit a few MMA forums and listen to what people are saying after Fedor takes his first loss. It is amazing.

If you look at the records of the other pound-for-pound fighters in the world, you will find that NONE of them are undefeated. So the fact that Fedor was able to remain undefeated for this long is a tribute in itself.

[#98QBKiller]

This.

If Brock gets pounded out by Carwin on Saturday then what will all of his apologists say, that Carwin is the best HW in the world now?

This is the sport of MMA, the BEST fighters lose. It happens. However this sport due to it's sudden and rapid growth has taken on about 100x the amount of fans in the last five or so years who were not around when there was a big time player in the sports besides UFC, who have no frame of reference when it comes to looking at a fighter's body of work instead of merely his last two or three fights, and lastly started watching UFC to see if their WWE hero Brock Lesnar could become a legit fighter and beat up all the UFC guys. That doesn't mean everyone who is a Lesnar fan fits into all the above categories, but just visit a few MMA forums and listen to what people are saying after Fedor takes his first loss. It is amazing.

If you look at the records of the other pound-for-pound fighters in the world, you will find that NONE of them are undefeated. So the fact that Fedor was able to remain undefeated for this long is a tribute in itself.

You guys both made some great points. There are some serious haters out there spewing some nonsense on Sherdog and other sites. That's where I read people trying to use this loss as a way to argue that Fedor somehow isn't the best HW fighter of all time. Funny thing is, they can't name a HW more deserving of that title. Sometimes I wish these people were around for Pride. The UFC's HW division was absolute garbage back then and these people just don't understand the significance of Fedor vs. Cro Cop and how big of a fight that was. Or even Fedor vs. Nog. A lot of these guys are the same people that don't understand why Chuck Liddell is a HOFer in the sport. Because they've only been watching since his chin went down the drain and all they know is the Chuck that gets KTFO, they never saw him dominate the LHW division for two years. I love that the sport gets newer fans but I wish more of them would understand the significance behind the fights that happened back in the mid-2000s.

[StillUnknown]

You guys both made some great points. There are some serious haters out there spewing some nonsense on Sherdog and other sites. That's where I read people trying to use this loss as a way to argue that Fedor somehow isn't the best HW fighter of all time. Funny thing is, they can't name a HW more deserving of that title. Sometimes I wish these people were around for Pride. The UFC's HW division was absolute garbage back then and these people just don't understand the significance of Fedor vs. Cro Cop and how big of a fight that was. Or even Fedor vs. Nog. A lot of these guys are the same people that don't understand why Chuck Liddell is a HOFer in the sport. Because they've only been watching since his chin went down the drain and all they know is the Chuck that gets KTFO, they never saw him dominate the LHW division for two years. I love that the sport gets newer fans but I wish more of them would understand the significance behind the fights that happened back in the mid-2000s.

alot of truth here

people are doing some serious revisionist history about Fedor right now

on a much sadder note: http://mmajunkie.com/news/19729/tuesday-autopsy-scheduled-for-south-carolina-mma-fighter-who-died-after-pro-debut.mma

Mixed-martial-arts competitor Michael Kirkham died this morning as a result of injuries sustained from a professional mixed-martial-arts bout this past Saturday at the USC Aiken Convocation Center in South Carolina.

WRDW News in Augusta, S.C., first reported the news.

Kirkham, 30, suffered repeated blows to the head during an MMA event dubbed "Confrontation at Convocation Center" and collapsed afterward.

He was taken unconscious to the Aiken Regional Medical Center, where he died from brain hemorrhaging, a representative of the Aiken County Coroner's office today confirmed with MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com).

An autopsy on the fighter is expected for Tuesday morning, the ACC representative said.

According to an amateur fighter database hosted on mixedmartialarts.com, Kirkham held a 1-3 record with two losses by way of TKO. The June 26 fight marked his pro debut.

A representative for the South Carolina Athletic Commission directed MMAjunkie.com to an officer for the state's Department of Labor, Licensing and Regulation, who was unavailable for comment.

Kirkham is the second fighter to die as a result of injuries sustained during a professional MMA bout. Houston-based fighter Sam Vasquez lapsed into a coma and died 42 days after a TKO loss to Vince Libari at a "Renegades Extreme Fighting" event in October 2007.

i read on bloodyelbow the man was a 6'9 lightweight

Edited June 29, 2010 by StillUnknown

[#98QBKiller]

Damn, that's some sad news. I hope they got his division or height wrong though!

[ZoEd]

Looks like a pretty good card with some potential brawls.

UFC 118 “Edgar vs. Penn 2”

Saturday, Aug. 28

TD Garden

Boston

UFC Lightweight Championship

Frankie Edgar vs. B.J. Penn

Randy Couture vs. James Toney

Nate Marquardt vs. Rousimar Palhares

Kenny Florian vs. Gray Maynard

Nate Diaz vs. Marcus Davis

Jorge Rivera vs. Alessio Sakara

Joe Lauzon vs. Terry Etim

Andre Winner vs. Nik Lentz

Phil Baroni vs. John Salter

Nick Osipczak vs. Greg Soto

Mike Pierce vs. Amilcar Alves

Kind of disappointed Kaleb Starnes is on this one though, when is he going to get his shot?

Edited June 29, 2010 by ZoEd

[NoCalMike]

I wonder how 118's buyrate will be. BJ Penn is usually a good sell for casual and hardcore fans, and then you have Couture vs. Toney which should bring a long a lot of first time UFC PPV buyers.

Who do you think has more to lose Couture or Toney? I say Couture because it is an MMA fight and Couture better know better than to get suckered into a standup fight. I am sure there are going to be tons of boxing fans tuning in and praying that Toney catches Couture.

Also, it tends to seem that most MMA fans are also boxing fans, while most boxing fans shun MMA.

[#98QBKiller]

I wonder how 118's buyrate will be. BJ Penn is usually a good sell for casual and hardcore fans, and then you have Couture vs. Toney which should bring a long a lot of first time UFC PPV buyers.

Who do you think has more to lose Couture or Toney? I say Couture because it is an MMA fight and Couture better know better than to get suckered into a standup fight. I am sure there are going to be tons of boxing fans tuning in and praying that Toney catches Couture.

Also, it tends to seem that most MMA fans are also boxing fans, while most boxing fans shun MMA.

I definitely agree that Couture has more to lose. I think he's smart enough to not get suckered into trying to prove something on the feet against Toney. A standup match would most certainly end with Randy getting put to sleep. I expect him to come out with his hands up, throw a leg kick or two to avoid any knees from Toney, and shoot a double soon after.

I think that BJ's name will sell some PPVs, and especially when the UFC starts to run promo clips for it and hypes the fact that Edgar beat BJ. I think BJ's going to come back and outbox Edgar pretty good in the rematch.

Also Kenny Florian/Gray Maynard is on this card and will probably decide who gets that next title shot. It's good they worked both of the LW fights on the same card so the champ and new challenger will be ready around the same time (barring any injuries).

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Wow, that card is AWESOME. Every fight on the main card is very intriguing.

And to answer your question, NCM, it's gotta be Randy. It's his sport, Toney will always have the excuse of deeming wrestling a homosexual activity. He's an ignorant torch bearer for ignorant boxing fans. They have nothing to lose, they are prepared with the laundry list of excuses. If Toney catches him, get ready to hear "boxing is better than MMA" for years to come.

They still don't understand that boxing is a martial art, it's a part of MMA just like jiu jitsu and wrestling is. It's like saying "Quarterbacks are better than football."

[#98QBKiller]

It's like saying "Quarterbacks are better than football."

Sounds like something a Cowboys fan would say.

[ZoEd]

Definitely a good card. Hopefully Nate the Great is back to form. Randy will keep Toney tied up with his greco clinch and smother Toney's dumpy ass. Sure Randy could get caught but I doubt it will be by a one diminsional boxer. Randy has nothing to fear but Toney's hands, nothing.