The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

One way to do a Cena heel turn is to make people think he has. The authority could interfere in the unification title match so that Cena wins. Orton goes balistic and says you sold out. Cena can swear he didn't do a thing. On Monday night Raw Cena is called out to give an explaination. He denies everything but no one believes him. They can keep this up for awhile until someone discovers evidence that Cena was not involved. That could solve the problem of Cena not turning heel yet being treated as if he had.

 

Needs more Hogan, Flair and the Rock.

LKB is one of like 5 posters on this board I will click a thread just to read what he said. No matter what the topic is either. I'm drawn to you LKB. I can't help it.

I wish he would weigh in on the DMX thread.

 

I own one DMX album and don't care for it.

Isn't he? Yes, the NWA production might have been bad, but I'd still rather see Tully Blanchard wrestle in front of 50 people than to see anything today in front of 20,000.

 

 

One thing that annoys me about Vince owning all of wrestling history right now is that he can convince people that Tully Blanchard was wrestling in front of 50 people. He might have been doing so

 

They will have some talent to work with, but you're right, they need stars. They would have to snatch some people from WWE with expiring contracts. And they can't miss with it. They would have to get some people that the smarks like (Ziggler, Cesaro, Sandow?) and somebody that the kids like (Kofi, Shaemus,) AND bring in a veteran that can give a good boost. Somebody like Jericho would be a perfect candidate for that role.

And that is as much as I can type from my cell phone.

 

"Stars" cause you to go broke, especially if they aren't stars.

By the way, I appreciate the love. I don't like any of you, but I appreciate the love.

 

Want to hear my opinions on the various Pro Wrestling Illustrated/Apter Mag "writers?" Dan Shocket? Eddie Ellner? Matt Brock? Liz Hunter?

[Big Weirdo]

I'd like your analysis of Dave Meltzer and his five star system (that was in actuality created by Jim Cornette and some friend of his that he probably hates now)

BTW is there anyone who hates Shawn Michaels more than Jim Cornette? He will go out of his way to take a shot at him. I love it.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I'd like your analysis of Dave Meltzer and his five star system (that was in actuality created by Jim Cornette and some friend of his that he probably hates now)

BTW is there anyone who hates Shawn Michaels more than Jim Cornette? He will go out of his way to take a shot at him. I love it.

Shane Helms. YT it.

 

Corny hates Russo the most

Needs more Hogan, Flair and the Rock.

 

I own one DMX album and don't care for it.

 

One thing that annoys me about Vince owning all of wrestling history right now is that he can convince people that Tully Blanchard was wrestling in front of 50 people. He might have been doing so

 

 

"Stars" cause you to go broke, especially if they aren't stars.

By the way, I appreciate the love. I don't like any of you, but I appreciate the love.

 

Want to hear my opinions on the various Pro Wrestling Illustrated/Apter Mag "writers?" Dan Shocket? Eddie Ellner? Matt Brock? Liz Hunter?

Used to buy those mags every month when I was younger. When I realized the writers were "fake", it was like learning about Santa Claus

Edited December 4, 2013 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[Mr. Sinister]

Isn't he? Yes, the NWA production might have been bad, but I'd still rather see Tully Blanchard wrestle in front of 50 people than to see anything today in front of 20,000.

 

 

The Magnum TA/Tully Blanchard rivalry was on there too. That **** was crazy. One of them was fending the other off, trying to stab them through the eye with some kind of sharp object.

LKB is one of like 5 posters on this board I will click a thread just to read what he said. No matter what the topic is either. I'm drawn to you LKB. I can't help it.

I wish he would weigh in on the DMX thread.

 

Seriously. I could say something like "LKB, why is the sky blue?" and he'd probably give 2 paragraphs of some of the most insightful, life altering analysis that you simply couldn't get from anywhere else. throw in a  few witty one liners and you have a masterpiece. And the funniest part about it is that I don't think I've seen the man use one single smiley... Not ever.

 

He's like the complete opposite of ACW (I miss that guy), who damn near crashed my computer with smilies several times.

 

LKB, I dare you to use a smiley...

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'd like your analysis of Dave Meltzer and his five star system (that was in actuality created by Jim Cornette and some friend of his that he probably hates now)

BTW is there anyone who hates Shawn Michaels more than Jim Cornette? He will go out of his way to take a shot at him. I love it.

 

I have never really read Meltzer. I was a huge wrestling fan from 1980 until 1989 or so, I guess. I was as markish as one could be though I kind of figure it out when I was 12 or so. I actually saw the John Stossel report the night it aired.

 

I fell out of it for the most part in high school. This wasn't a great period for wrestling anyway. Around my junior year of college, I fell back into it in a big big way. 1) I finally got an internet connection in my door room and discovered rspw and 2) We had MSG Channel on our dorm cable package and I drunkenly stumbled upon ECW. I'm completely over ECW at this point, but in 1994/95, that felt like the revolution, you know? At that point, I was back into it and stayed that way to the early 2000s. After WCW died, I sort of lost interest. I barely watch at all now. The CM Punk thing brought me back for a bit, and I'll speed through some stuff online. But I don't sit and watch 3 hour Raws. I wouldn't have done that at age 23 with all the free time in the world.

 

Anyway, I used to get all my "news" from the gazillion wrestling web sites, and they all stole from Meltzer so I never read him directly.

 

My only problem with star ratings is that everyone who uses them uses them the same way - they treat the match as some kind of athletic exhibition. It's like giving a Ramones album a bad review because they aren't good musicians. They are all "workrate" obsessed which is the wrong way to view a wrestling match. I think every match should be measured against what it is trying to be, not some platonic ideal of Prime Ric Flair versus Prime Shawn Michaels. Scott Keith used to take away stars for "rest holds," which always drove me nuts. 

 

I also have no idea why people give star ratings to four minute Diva matches or four minute squashes.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Also,

 

my favorite heel of all time is HHH from 99 to 2001. Written perfectly. He was a dominant heel but was so sadistic that you couldn't cheer him at all. He had no redeemable qualities. Sick and cowardly.

 

Broke JR's arm.

Fought Chyna for the no. 1 contendership.

Kick McMahon's ass and destroyed his fam.

Ran down Austin and lied about it.

Put Rock in a coffin and bashed it in with a sledgehammer.

That beatdown he and Austin put on the Hardys and Lita was legit disturbing. 

 

He was a sick ****. It was amazing. 

Edited December 4, 2013 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Shane Helms. YT it.

 

Corny hates Russo the most

Used to buy those mags every month when I was younger. When I realized the writers were "fake", it was like learning about Santa Claus

 

To be honest, the Apter mags are still a complete mystery to me. I mean, I know Matt Brock was fake. But I don't know about Dan Shocket, who I remember dying, or Eddie Ellner who did a heel turn to write Shocket's column.

 

What really threw me was when I read one of their sister boxing magazines. Same writers, but much more straightforward. That whole world is bizarre to me.

 

Cornette is going to turn into a very sad figure before our eyes. The weird thing about him is that he is only 50 years old. He was falling off scaffolds and hitting people in the head with tennis rackets on TBS when he was, like, 25. And he was doing stuff around the Memphis territory when he was, like 10. He really should be in his prime years as a booker, agent, producer, manager, etc. but he is a relic from another age, because he got started so freaking young and has such a specific vision of wrestling.

 

He hates Paul E. in part, because Paul E. is just an adaptable version of himself. 

 

And it's not like he has any other interests in his life. He's been obsessed with wrestling and wrestling only since he was a kid. There was a shoot interview where he was trying to use a football analogy and the only football play he could think of was "The Hail Mary." And this is a guy who is close friends with Jim Ross and Bill Watts.

 

I honestly don't know what he is going to do for the next 25 years or so. Sit in his house in Louisville and watch old Austin Idol promos, I guess.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Mr. Sinister]

Also,

 

my favorite heel of all time is HHH from 99 to 2001. Written perfectly. He was a dominant heel but was so sadistic that you couldn't cheer him at all. He had no redeemable qualities. Sick and cowardly.

 

Broke JR's arm.

Fought Chyna for the no. 1 contendership.

Kick McMahon's ass and destroyed his fam.

Ran down Austin and lied about it.

Put Rock in a coffin and bashed it in with a sledgehammer.

That beatdown he and Austin put on the Hardys and Lita was legit disturbing. 

 

He was a sick ****. It was amazing. 

 

That was one of the first glimpses of "The Game." Before that, he was the big cool surfer guy that had talent, and could get a little dirty in the ring, but was loved by everybody, and couldn't be taken seriously as a legit heel. Then he spent a minute in purgatory when he turned on DX and became a Corporate Ministry goon, before the Sledgehammer incident, then he got rid of the glitter tights, went rough and rugged with the trunks/boots, changed his music,  and then had one of the most transcendent summers that I can remember. He had that awesome strap match with Rock at Fully Loaded, then followed it up with the SummerSlam/Austin/Foley angle. '99 was all Trips.

 

Then he inserts himself into the McMahon hierarchy, turns Stephanie slutty, kicks Vinces ass, then (with Foley's help) becomes The Heel in the business after the Street Fight/Hell In A Cell matches. I still remember that promo where he was like "Mick, you have no idea what I'm capable of..... When I get that sick... when I get that twisted, there is nothing I will not do to get what is mine" or something like that. **** sent chills down your spine.

 

The late '00 swerve when he went super heel after becoming sort of a face, pretty much capped it (along with the creation of the Power Trip). I loved to hate that dude. I think the fans loved it as well, until WM XIX, where he started to get some white heat after the Booker T angle, and the subsequent long ass title runs on Raw.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Mr. Sinister

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

The late '00 swerve when he went super heel after becoming sort of a face, pretty much capped it. I loved to hate that dude. I think the fans loved it as well, until WM XIX, where he started to get some white heat after the Booker T angle, and the subsequent long ass title runs on Raw.

 

That Booker T angle to me is pretty much the moment that WWE lost the plot. They were always the promotion that gave the fans a payoff - unlike WCW which always gave fans blue balls. That was the first time they said, "We know you want to see X, but we know that Y is better." That's been their booking philosophy ever since to some degree.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

That Booker T angle to me is pretty much the moment that WWE lost the plot. They were always the promotion that gave the fans a payoff - unlike WCW which always gave fans blue balls. That was the first time they said, "We know you want to see X, but we know that Y is better." That's been their booking philosophy ever since to some degree.

Lord that whole thing was brutal.

 

And King's commentary during that match was disgusting. Hated that angle

[CrypticVillain]

Yeah, I think the best two heels, I mean legit heels not tweeners like Punk/Jericho, I liked since I started on watching since 99-00 were HHH and Edge. WD already said what needed to be said about HHH. But Edge, lol dude was killing when he was the Rated R superstar. Probably the last great heel.

No disrespect to my man Mark Henry though. He was a good heel too. Still remember when he ripped the cage off the door and crushed Mysterio. The image off him on top of the cage beating his chest was epic

[Mr. Sinister]

I'm catching up on the WWE era that I missed (after WM XX). If there are 2 guys that I kind of regret not getting to see progress to main event status (it sure as hell wasn't Cena), it is Edge and Batista (and Orton to a lesser extent) along with HBK's resurgence. I' already on the night after SummerSlam, when Evolution turns on Randy Orton. Even then, you can see that things are a little frantic. In a span of like 3 years, Rock semi-retires, then goes on permanent hiatus, Stone Cold is pretty much forced into retirement, HBK takes time off to heel from injury (so does Kurt Angle), Lesnar leaves when he is one of the top guys in the company, an then not long after, Eddie G dies. That is a lot of unforseen circumstance with your top talent. And their tag team division is laughable, especially with the Dudleys running on fumes by then.

 

I'm sure that was part of why they went so hard on Cena. They had to have a new 'It guy."

[Big Weirdo]

I'm glad you recognize Sinister that Foley made HHH. No one puts a guy over like my man Mick. He made the Rock and HHH into total badasses over night. They will both admit to that too.

[Mr. Sinister]

I'm glad you recognize Sinister that Foley made HHH. No one puts a guy over like my man Mick. He made the Rock and HHH into total badasses over night. They will both admit to that too.

 

Revitalized the Undertaker's career as well. Also had one of the best matches I ever saw with Shawn Michaels at Mind Games. Had memorable matches with Terry Funk against the New Age Outlaws, etc etc. I think just about about everybody that wrestled in that era owes a little bit of their career to Mick Foley.

[KDawg]

I was thinkin' the other day, watching RAW (I meant to mention it here and forgot) that Randy Orton is missing something right now...

 

Part of it, in my opinion, is he needs to be a full on psychopath when he's a heel. And perhaps they are building to that... But it honestly feels like there's something else missing.

 

Then it dawned on me... Orton is good on the mic... Not great... but good. Paul Heyman is going to need a new guy to manage...

 

Punk was great on the mic and he and Heyman worked. I don't know.. I'm just kind of spitballing. An Orton/Heyman partnership would be real interesting.

[MattFancy]

I don't even watch much WWE these days, but will always read in here when I see LKB post something lol. Seriously, one of, if not the best posters on ES. I'd say he's probably the best Tailgate poster and KDawg probably the best Stadium poster.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I finally was able to listen to part of the Meltzer episode of the Austin podcast on my way to work this morning. Pretty interesting so far.

 

1. We need to add another Austin obsession: Paul Boesch. It keeps coming up organically but Boesch has been discussed in several recent podcasts. I love the idea of million-year-old, cauliflower-eared Boesch calling up young whippersnapper Dave Meltzer and smarting him up to the business. The story of all the fake excuses for why a main event didn't sell sounded like something out of Vince McMahon's shareholder calls.

 

(For the record, I now want John Stossel on the podcast and all the questions to be about Paul Boesch).

 

2. Austin is so damn smart about wrestling should work. He ****es about the scripted promos constantly and I agree with everything he and Dave said about them. Nothing is dumber than a wrestler standing there listening to ten minutes of a speech before launching into their own ten minute speech. Austin starts yelling, "You have a damn microphone dangling at your side. Use it!" I also like Dave's idea of hearing a wrestler use a word that the character would never use and being taken out of the moment. Their final example is HHH and Stephanie being mad at Dusty Rhodes for "ruining" their segment by coming out and being Dusty Rhodes - cutting them off, going off-script, etc.

 

3. I also liked Austin talking about how he always wanted his character to feel real. He wanted to be a wrestler - not an actor playing a wrestler.

 

I'm behind on these. I'm actually weirdly looking forward to the Brian Knobbs one, even thought I always hated the Nasty Boys.

[Mr. Sinister]

I always wondered about that. A lot of the promos I used to watch never seemed completely scripted. I think each guy knew the gist of what the other was going to say, but I'm pretty sure they all filled int heir own blanks. I can recall countless times when guys would pause after the other said something they weren't expecting.

 

Jericho's first promo witht The Rock, and Undertaker cutting Rock off and talking about him using "Scripted nursery rhymes" immediately comes to mind.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I always wondered about that. A lot of the promos I used to watch never seemed completely scripted. I think each guy knew the gist of what the other was going to say, but I'm pretty sure they all filled int heir own blanks. I can recall countless times when guys would pause after the other said something they weren't expecting.

 

Jericho's first promo witht The Rock, and Undertaker cutting Rock off and talking about him using "Scripted nursery rhymes" immediately comes to mind.

 

Promos only became scripted within the last ten years or so. I think Austin mentioned once coming back for something and seeing Ric Flair sitting in a corner, memorizing a script and how that just blew his mind.

 

Dusty has said that he basically came up with his Hard Times promo on his walk from the production room to the podium. Cornette has said that they way it used to work was "You have 90 seconds. You need to sell the Midnight Express vs The Rock and Roll Express in Greensboro. Remember that you are in a straight jacket for that match. Go sell some tickets."

 

I honestly have no idea when the WWE officially moved to "Writers." Russo was obviously writing some pretty big outlines for dialogue when he was there, but I don't think there were scripts yet. 

 

I think part of the issue is the guys are "performers" now and not wrestlers. Dusty, Flair, Savage, and Hogan were Dusty, Flair, Savage and Hogan 24 hours a day. No one ever had to tell Hulk Hogan what his character would say, because he was his character.

 

The one thing I hate is how every promo is now like Evening at the Improv or a Friar's Roast. These are not supposed to be stand up comedy routines.

 

Something to consider: The Four Horsemen only existed because Arn Anderson said something off-the-cuff in a live promo.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[CrypticVillain]

I don't know if it's because I have a gift or what, but I can cut better promos than most wrestlers nowadays. Just give me the wrestler, when where fighting, and a time limit, and I will get the job done.

 

I remember they did a segment like that on NXT on cutting a 30 second promo about a specific topic, and they all pretty much sucked. I just don't understand how.

[Big Weirdo]

GACOLB and I cut promos on each other all the time. We have both agreed to an I Quit match but no date has been set.

[Gallen5862]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1876725-report-triple-hs-wrestlemania-30-opponent-potentially-revealed

 

While Triple H and Punk have not recently interacted in front of the camera, it is reportedly expected, according to the members-only PWInsiderElite.com (viaWrestleZone.com), that the little hints, barbs and handicap matches will progress into an all-out struggle, possibly culminating in a bout at WrestleMania 30:

Early plans looking ahead to WrestleMania 30 are calling for a CM Punk vs Triple H match. It's not clear whether that match will take place before 'Mania or at the event itself, but sources in 

WWE

 expect it to happen at some point.

Assuming this report were to come to fruition, it is not clear whether Vince McMahon, who recently made an off-camera appearance at Survivor Series, will play a part for or against Triple H when WrestleMania season arrives.

If McMahon were to oppose his son-in-law, an association with Punk would be ironic, but justifiable in the vein of the old adage, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

In the WWE's universe, Punk is one of a small class of individuals who has gotten the better of WWE's head honcho (at Money in the Bank 2011) and may be the one whom Vince will have to reluctantly turn to in order to reclaim his company from "The Authority."

[Big Weirdo]

Not that it means anything but Stephanie McMahon no longer runs creative and they all report to Triple H now.

(but really everyone reports to Vince)

Also that report sounds meh. This Authority angle sucks. Triple H can only be vicious otherwise he is annoying. Plus you get this sense that everything always has to be about him somehow.

[CrypticVillain]

GACOLB and I cut promos on each other all the time. We have both agreed to an I Quit match but no date has been set.

Special Guest Referee???

I'm rally not feeling that Punk/HHH thing either. Especially not for 'Mania.

[Mr. Sinister]

I don't know if it's because I have a gift or what, but I can cut better promos than most wrestlers nowadays. Just give me the wrestler, when where fighting, and a time limit, and I will get the job done.

 

I remember they did a segment like that on NXT on cutting a 30 second promo about a specific topic, and they all pretty much sucked. I just don't understand how.

 

I think the issue with that (at least now) is that great promo wrestlers are naturally good at talking. These days, due to the "Entertainment" nature of pro wrestling, I think more emphasis/expectation is put on it, and required, to be a top guy i the company. In the past, I think mic skills were important, but if you weren't good on the mic, there were ways around it. Generally, if you were a great wrestler, you could afford to be a not so great promo guy. Maybe they give you a few catchphrases and tell you not to go beyond that. Maybe they give you a manager, who does the **** talking for you, and you come in with a few lines later on.

 

Now it just feels like guys are expected to give sermons, or earth shattering promos. It's like either you're great, or you're terrible.