Fergasun Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 The Atlantic: The Myth of Working Your Way Through College Quote Last week, a graduate student named Randy Olson listened to his grandfather extol the virtues of putting oneself through college without family support. But paying for college without family support is a totally different proposition these days, Olson thought. It may have been feasible 30 years ago, or even 15 years ago, but it's much harder now. ... Quote The cost of an MSU credit hour has multiplied since 1979. So has the federal minimum wage. But today, it takes 60 hours of minimum-wage work to pay off a single credit hour, which was priced at $428.75 for the fall semester. ... Quote According to the graph, the price of an MSU education began exceeding what could reasonably be earned with part-time, minimum-wage work around 1993. That's when a single MSU credit hour became worth more than 20 hours of wages. Imagine a 15-week semester with a course load of 12 credit hours. If each credit hour required 20 hours of minimum wage work, a student would have to work 16 hours a week to pay for school. That's doable. But today the same student would have to work 48 hours a week at that minimum wage job to pay for his classes. I know this article is from 2014, but I wanted to post this because of a response to the comment I made below, where another poster was trying to explain away the cost of education. Below is my quote. I posted the above article to demonstrate how this over-financialization/forced-inflation in education is screwing over the average American. Who in our political system is talking about this as a driver to income-inequality rich/poor? I graduated in 2003 -- my parents had a much lower cost of education, my kids are going to have a much higher cost of education (although there *should* be cheaper means to get a degree now with the Internet, etc, right?). Why do we accept this as inevitable? Quote Just like our TVs and computers, education and health care should cost less over time --- housing values should be stable. Because banks and financiers have political power, they have baked and forced inflation into all those areas, threatening the stability of the country. No one in government is talking about this, bur we are sowing disaster with the past 30 years of "debt-sumption"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 The new "work your way through college" is this: -have the foresight when you are 15 years old to load up on dual enrollment courses in HS so you come into college with a semester or two worth of credits already under your belt -hope your parents live close enough to a decent college so you can live with them while you are in school -take out student loans at 8% interest for your tuition and hope that you can finish school fast enough to only be $30-40k in debt by the time you are done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Yeah, I guess my wife's college venture was a myth then. Graduated with zero debt. Worked as a waitress (you know, that job that pays below minimum wage and then depends on other people to tip you to make more) working from 3pm - 9pm (at the earliest), then had to be at the hospital at 6 AM to noon for her 'training', while also attending classes 3 days a week. She got to party, but not much. Had to spend a lot of time studying and had to be ready to handle the 6 AM - 9PM (at the earliest) grind of working, hospital, etc. Then she got a job at a hospital and worked three 12 hours shifts a week while doing coursework for a masters degree. The job she got with her associates degree was willing to give her 2k a year for school, so long as she achieved a 3.5 GPA average, which covered about 1/3 of the yearly expenses. She covered the rest out of pocket. not one loan. no family help. she didn't save anything beforehand, she didn't get credits in high school. got straight A's except for one course where she got a B+ (we actually took that one together and I got a B+ while doing no work and she was super pissed at me, she actually blames me for dragging her down, which is probably true) she also lived on her own so rent, utilities, food, car, insurance, plus the normal stuff. Need to let her know tonight that was all a myth and is obviously not possible. I also need to tell my boss that how he paid his own way through JMU was a myth when we go to lunch. I'm sure all the people I went to school with that took out loans and didn't work because they'd pay them off later with all that money they were going to earn with their communications degree, and thought community college was beneath them, were a myth too. It's really just that the system sucks and people were misled and the previous generations ****ed everything up, amirite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said: The new "work your way through college" is this: -have the foresight when you are 15 years old to load up on dual enrollment courses in HS so you come into college with a semester or two worth of credits already under your belt -hope your parents live close enough to a decent college so you can live with them while you are in school -take out student loans at 8% interest for your tuition and hope that you can finish school fast enough to only be $30-40k in debt by the time you are done There are other options also. Like knock out a bunch of credits at a local community college or online before transferring to a bigger school. And work hard to build up on grants and scholarships (a lot of scholarship money goes unused each year), or attend an in-state public college at a lower cost. Plenty of people are able to come out of college without crippling debt. But they aren't as fun to talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 tshile, Since you are forthcoming and open about your wifes degree, can you provide context like this article? Year graduated, credit hours per semester, was she working 42 hours a week (6 hours x 7 days). Her story, and your bosses really do nothing to take away from the facts in this article as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 My daughter is working her way thru college with a kid, of course serving in the Navy helps pay part of it.(which was work) There is a push to make credits more transferable between institutions and utilizing community Colleges can lower the bill greatly. Expanding online courses and the credit transfers would help a lot of folk. The mention of "decent" college in the OP illustrates another issue. add Dual Physics and Chemistry majors make for some long ass days combined with working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Working your way through college is basically dead now. The cost of education is just way too high for an average student to pay their way through by working 40 hours/week part-time or full-time. Even going to a community college your first two years to save money and then transferring to a 4 year university (which is what I did back in the 90s) doesn't help as much as it used to, granted every little bit helps. A lot depends on your degree, some are easier than others. So it might be possible to work a full-time job (if you are lucky with scheduling) that pays you well and complete classes at the same time. I worked 32-40 hours a week in college part time and the pay was $6-7/hr, not nearly enough to cover the cost of one semester along with rent/gas/food/etc. I didn't read the article, but I'd say that it would be almost impossible for a recent high school grad (or even a few years removed) to completely pay their way through college on their own while having to provide for themselves (rent, food, bills, etc.). Talking no hook-ups from family/friends, just getting a job and going to college and being able to not acquire any debt (or minimal debt) to earn the degree. Basically, paying your way as you go. Also, earning the degree within a reasonable time frame and not taking one or two classes per semester and stretching it out over 10+ years. My biggest rant about college is the bull**** classes they make you take to earn the degree in the first place, all the electives that have nothing to do with your field of study. They claim it's to prepare and produce well rounded individuals. Bull****, it's to drag out the degree another 1.5-2 years so you can make more money off each student. You take English, Lit, History, etc. all through 12th grade, no need to make one take all that **** again unless it's their major. Most 4 year degrees could be earned in 2.5-3 years if for not all of the irrelevant classes one has to take to earn the degree. I've always felt they should do without those classes and require a co-op in your field of study for at minimum 1 year. Go to school a semester, work co-op a semester and flip flop until you have one year of work experience. It's more valuable than what Dr. **** Stick is talking about in Art 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: There are other options also. Like knock out a bunch of credits at a local community college or online before transferring to a bigger school. And work hard to build up on grants and scholarships (a lot of scholarship money goes unused each year), or attend an in-state public college at a lower cost. Plenty of people are able to come out of college without crippling debt. But they aren't as fun to talk about. Yeah there are always ways to reduce your college debt. But some aren't available to everyone (scholarship $), and many require your 17-18 year old kid to make very good life decisions without the benefit of perspective. Can you escape the higher ed machine, or at least mitigate the financial impact? Sure. Do most people? Nope. Also $10k/yr tuition is not atypical for in-state public colleges now. The $30-40k example was 3 years of in-state tuition at UVA, plus the interest accumulated on your loans in that time. That's with a student either living at home or working to cover living expenses. Community college would reduce the burden but if you did a full year worth of dual enrollment courses you'd be looking at one year in community college followed by 2 years at the college you'd want to graduate from. Again using UVA as an example: that would be $4500 for the CC year, and $10k for each year at UVA. Would be $30k after the interest that accumulates for those three years. And that is running pretty damn lean imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 6 minutes ago, Fergasun said: tshile, Since you are forthcoming and open about your wifes degree, can you provide context like this article? Year graduated, credit hours per semester, was she working 42 hours a week (6 hours x 7 days). Her story, and your bosses really do nothing to take away from the facts in this article as well. I pretty much provided that. She graduated a few years ago, was taking 3 classes a semester, was working three 12 hour shifts a week for her masters and was wroking 5 nights a week while getting her associates (which required being at the hospital 6 hours a day, 2 days a week, and 5 classes spread the other 3 days a week) You can think it doesn't take away, but title is about how it's a myth and the write-up is done in a very specific way to avoid the fact that, as others have stated including myself, there's more than 1 way to go through college. But just keep blaming others and the system, that's the american way these days. Everyone's a victim of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, twa said: My daughter is working her way thru college with a kid, of course serving in the Navy helps pay part of it.(which was work) There is a push to make credits more transferable between institutions and utilizing community Colleges can lower the bill greatly. Expanding online courses and the credit transfers would help a lot of folk. The mention of "decent" college in the OP illustrates another issue. in VA the CC coursework transfers to the state universities. They have specific programs for it. At one point I was taking 6 classes and working two jobs (one as a waiter, the other as a part time programmer.) It was awful, but it was only for a short period while I earned an extra degree and transitioned from working in a restaurant to working in the field my degree was in. The route my wife and I took was certainly less fun at the time. But while our friends are ****ing and moaning about their debt, we're debt free with great credit and tons of expendable income and our retirement accounts are on path to retire at 55. Friends can't say any of that. Some of them accumulated student loan debt and dropped out with no degree Most of them destroyed their credit by taking out credit cards as freshmen. The one thing that isn't their fault, is that the economy collapsed right around the time many of them graduated. Which makes it hard to get a job. 4-5 years later things were better, but it's hard to get a job when you're in you're late 20's with a degree you have no real experience in... I do feel bad for that part, bad timing and even people who made good decisions got caught up. But there are plenty that just made bad decisions or gambled and lost. I have one friend who used his 'extra' loan money one semester to buy a surround sound system for his dorm room. idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, tshile said: I pretty much provided that. She graduated a few years ago, was taking 3 classes a semester, was working three 12 hour shifts a week for her masters and was wroking 5 nights a week while getting her associates (which required being at the hospital 6 hours a day, 2 days a week, and 5 classes spread the other 3 days a week) You can think it doesn't take away, but title is about how it's a myth and the write-up is done in a very specific way to avoid the fact that, as others have stated including myself, there's more than 1 way to go through college. But just keep blaming others and the system, that's the american way these days. Everyone's a victim of the system. So your wife did this while you were married? Not right out of high school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I worked my self right into a college dropout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Just now, Dont Taze Me Bro said: So your wife did this while you were married? Not right out of high school. How long do you think it takes to get an AS and then a masters degree while working full-time? Even if you weren't working full time it's a minimum 5 years, and more if you have any struggles or are in an exceptionally hard major (like engineering or something.) She started right out of high school. As did my boss. I started right out of high school but am in a much different situation than both of them, and screwed up a lot along the way, so my story isn't really applicable except for the fact that I worked full time through a lot of it, and at one point was taking 6 classes while working two jobs so people who tell me it isn't possible can shove it. It is possible. I did it. My wife did it. My boss did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 26 minutes ago, Fergasun said: tshile, Since you are forthcoming and open about your wifes degree, can you provide context like this article? Year graduated, credit hours per semester, was she working 42 hours a week (6 hours x 7 days). Her story, and your bosses really do nothing to take away from the facts in this article as well. I would add (and kudos to your wife @tshile ) that just because someone can do it with a ton of hard work, should it be that tough to get higher education? It's wonderful for those who make it through the process that has been described. I'm sure it builds character, etc. But why should it be such a daunting test? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, Springfield said: I worked my self right into a college dropout. I was too busy working for college , the wife did the college thing and doesn't work. I guess higher ed did pay off for her and her unpaid volunteering ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 16 minutes ago, tshile said: You can think it doesn't take away, but title is about how it's a myth and the write-up is done in a very specific way to avoid the fact that, as others have stated including myself, there's more than 1 way to go through college. But just keep blaming others and the system, that's the american way these days. Everyone's a victim of the system. The point was to discuss the way that America has changed over time --- think 1980s to now. Does it mean, "impossible" -- no -- but the bell curve has shifted. 30 years ago there were more of "tshile's wife" out there because college costs relative to the minimum wage hadn't taken off. We are talking about a fundamental change to American education system, and your anecdotal story doesn't change what was presented, neither does your seemingly defensive or hostile attitude that I am peddling some type of "American victimization". I think it is unreasonable to expect the bell-curve 50% to shift. I think you are ignoring how exploitation taking place on Americans by the education and financial systems. Maybe people should be allowed to discuss the new realities of a "new America" where it is harder to afford college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Just now, TD_washingtonredskins said: I would add (and kudos to your wife @tshile ) that just because someone can do it with a ton of hard work, should it be that tough to get higher education? It's wonderful for those who make it through the process that has been described. I'm sure it builds character, etc. But why should it be such a daunting test? "that tough" meant not partying as much, it taking longer than 4 years, and sucking it up and going to community college for 2 years first. It also meant picking a major that qualified you for a job that allowed you to advance and get paid the way you want. Not every job will give you money to go to school. Plenty of jobs don't pay enough to justify the debt incurred. I don't know about the rest of the country but I grew up in northern va. Community college is, across the board, looked down upon by everyone in high school. People went to college and partied their assess off, and if any of them worked it was often some menial minimum wage job in the cafeteria or something to make money to buy alcohol with. Most of them got vague degrees and had no idea what they wanted to do in life, many of them changed majors multiple times. I do not feel bad for them. Their own arrogance, lack of planning, lack of foresight, and thinking of college as this thing you just do after high school because everyone said so is what got them where they are. Destroying their credit by taking out credit cards the first week of freshman year at the student center was also their decision. I realize some people are in bad spots and have to do what they have to do, and that it sucks they wound up in those bad spots. I also realize some people just have bad luck (maybe a family tragedy screwed everything up, maybe the economy collapsing screwed it all up, etc.) But when I hear about how it's a "myth" that you can do this, and people I'm around every day (or almost every day) just did it, and did it with incredibly hard work, and that their work is summarily dismissed as a myth, and then I think of all the people just made dumb decisions between the ages of 18-22, it makes me mad. It's disrespectful, it pretends there's only one way to go through college (you must take a full load at a 4 year university, community college is for dummies), it just ignores the idea that there's value in hard work, etc etc. What people want is for it to be easy. I don't know if you can look at what college is supposed to be, in the grand scheme of life, and think that it's a good idea that it be easy. Especially when you factor in what most people consider 'easy' to be. 2 minutes ago, Fergasun said: Maybe people should be allowed to discuss the new realities of a "new America" where it is harder to afford college. I graduated with my last degree 4 years ago. She did 5 years ago. Tell me more about this "new America". I'm obviously unaware of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 But was it easier for our parent's generation to work summers to pay for college and escape with little debt vs gen x's and the millenial generations? The answer is obviously yes. And the assertion that college is no longer affordable through summer/part time work is largely true. That is the discussion. Not whether its feasible for some people to still do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btfoom Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 31 minutes ago, Fergasun said: tshile, Since you are forthcoming and open about your wifes degree, can you provide context like this article? Year graduated, credit hours per semester, was she working 42 hours a week (6 hours x 7 days). Her story, and your bosses really do nothing to take away from the facts in this article as well. I know you asked tshile, but my wife and I both worked our way through college. Having 2 kids in college now, I do agree that the costs of a degree are much higher now and make it very difficult to impossible to do today. Me: Graduated HS in 1985, Graduated BS (University of MD) December 1989, Mechanical Engineering (132 total credits). No summer sessions. Took an average of 15 credits per semester. Worked waiting tables 2-3 nights a week during school, 5 days during breaks and over summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weganator Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Graduated from UMD in 2010 after 4 + a summer in order to get my degree. Chose Maryland over Johns Hopkins after realizing how outrageous the price difference was. Graduated with about 60k+ in debt, paid it off in less than 5 years. Pick a degree where you can get your money back through your education. You don't feel bad for a landlord that that goes bankrupt due to bad home selections or a businesses due to their poor investments. These arguments are about trying to paint people into a corner over free, public college. If we talked about modifying tuition to more accurately price out your earning power with a given degree, those departments would see less funding and there would be decrying over the death of non-STEM education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Enlist. We should have a draft anyways i could get on board with Bernie Sanders if the deal was a 5 year enlistment in exchange for a paid degree. I bet 80 percent of the kids realize between the age of 18-23 that college might not be for them anyway. And if that's the case guess what? You can learn a trade in the military too! Mechanic, air traffic, construction, whatever also, student loans are way too easy to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 49 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said: My biggest rant about college is the bull**** classes they make you take to earn the degree in the first place, Respectfully disagree. For example, you end up with writers who don't have the exposure to write about technical matters. You produce engineers who don't have an appreciation for the value of aesthetics (before the counter rant—note how many buy "sweet looking" cars or how sleek their gadgets are). An awareness of history matters so you don't put wannabe dictators at the head of the world's greatest Democracy. This feeling that (higher) education is only a utilitarian device (to make money) is a very new thing. We are more than how much we make and our quality of life (outside of work) matters much more than the contemporary American gives it credit. Sure, you can take those classes outside of college, but many don't. Just the reading itself, is invaluable practice and training and critical thinking for say a lawyer. So that's my argument for the necessity of the "bull****" courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 32 minutes ago, twa said: I was too busy working for college , the wife did the college thing and doesn't work. I guess higher ed did pay off for her and her unpaid volunteering ass. ...liberals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weganator Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, zoony said: Enlist. We should have a draft anyways i could get on board with Bernie Sanders if the deal was a 5 year enlistment in exchange for a paid degree. I bet 80 percent of the kids realize between the age of 18-23 that college might not be for them anyway. And if that's the case guess what? You can learn a trade in the military too! Mechanic, air traffic, construction, whatever also, student loans are way too easy to get. 60% of the the Nordefco countries still have conscription, with Sweden only getting rid of it in 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, zoony said: Enlist. We should have a draft anyways i could get on board with Bernie Sanders if the deal was a 5 year enlistment in exchange for a paid degree. I bet 80 percent of the kids realize between the age of 18-23 that college might not be for them anyway. And if that's the case guess what? You can learn a trade in the military too! Mechanic, air traffic, construction, whatever also, student loans are way too easy to get. I'd say enlist or set up some sort of non-military national service program for post-HS kids that helps pay for college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.