The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Spearfeather]

Personally, I wouldn't take Wentz or Winston over Cousins, and Cams only a maybe.

[petedaddy]

Just now, clskinsfan said:

 

Lets see your list of QB's you would take over Kirk right now. This should be interesting.

 

Just curious did you even watch the video? Or are you just defending to defend?

 

Oh. And I believe you are the one trolling me. You replied to me as a guy that "just doesnt get it"

 

Agreed. Viable is good term for him. Not paid like a top 3 guy.

 

we've been through this many times before, i would suggest you check out advanced metrics and how they rate kirk

 

most of the guys you listed that you would take over kirk fall well below him

 

for example, someone like derek carr who most people would take over kirk because of name recognition or, "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome just had his first year with a QBR over 50 last season, and his first season Top 10 DVOA.  Kirk was both of those in each of the last two seasons (and also finished higher than Derek Carr last season in both too)

 

so if you ask me would I trade Kirk straight up for Derek Carr, my answer is no, and I am high on Derek Carr

 

bottom line, kirk gets extremely undervalued and is a legit top 10 QB in this league, and is pushing top 5 when you factor in production and age

 

I've also said it time and time again, but how in the hell can Kirk just be considered viable??

 

Us as Redskins fans should know this better than anyone...this was a train wreck of a team in 2013 and 2014, and then all of a sudden we get a real quarterback and we go from train wreck to respectable, and this is with no semblance of defense and a running game that is barely on life support

 

If we traded for Aaron Rodgers after the 2014 season and we went 9-7 in 2015 and won the division, there would be a statue outside of FedEx field of Aaron Rodgers right now

 

INSTEAD, we have to hear countless times some BUT after everything Kirk accomplishes, or we see the goal posts keep moving on him

 

The other thing I see is people who will somewhat acknowledge Kirk's accomplishments, but then discount it based on others around him, "well Kirk has all that time to throw with our awesome offensive line", and i say to that, that offensive line didn't look too sharp before Kirk, and they sure as hell know how to get blown up on 3rd and short when we need a yard on the ground

 

Or, "look at those receivers, they are the best receivers in the NFL!!!!!" and yes, they are fine receivers, but Kirk has never had a true # 1 receiver either.  We had this debate earlier, but give me an AJ Green, OBJ, or Julio Jones over Pierre + DeSean.

 

The fact that any of us who have watched this team for years and can't see what Kirk is accomplishing and can't recognize his talent blows my mind.  My only theory is that some people are so predisposed to either Kirk being the other guy, the 4th round pick, or they are predisposed to the interception machine Kirk and can't shake that thought from their mind.  Either way, it's time for us to move on from this and recognize what he has done and how he has brought respectability to our franchise

 

There are very few QBs who have done what he has done the last two seasons, and yes, I do realize there are areas he can improve upon, but I do also realize that he still has room to grow

 

I for one hope that he continues his growth as a Washington Redskin, I certainly feel that we can win with him.  I see him easily as a top 10 QB now, and an argument can be made for him to be a top 5 QB

 

[desertbeagle85]

33 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

Personally, I wouldn't take Wentz or Winston over Cousins, and Cams only a maybe.

 

I'd take Wentz 

 

Younger and he looked pretty good for a rookie. 

 

Not to mention the Redskins last year and this year have more talent on offense compared to the Eagles.

 

So Wentz would have a easier time with Reed, Crowder, Pryor, Quick and maybe Doctson.

 

 

Kirk is our guy though and I back him.

 

I heard he's going to just throw TDS To  himself this year. 

 

Organization might sign him to a long-term deal after that.

[Spearfeather]

3 hours ago, desertbeagle85 said:

 

So Wentz would have a easier time with Reed, Crowder, Pryor, Quick and maybe Doctson.

 

 

Yeah, he could put up big numbers with those guys. 4500 yards, 25 - 30 TDs, throw for 69% ... numbers like that.

 

Quote

 

I heard he's going to just throw TDS To  himself this year. 

Organization might sign him to a long-term deal after that.

 

 

That won't be necessary.

[petedaddy]

Just now, desertbeagle85 said:

 

I'd take Wentz 

 

Younger and he looked pretty good for a rookie. 

 

Not to mention the Redskins last year and this year have more talent on offense compared to the Eagles.

 

So Wentz would have a easier time with Reed, Crowder, Pryor, Quick and maybe Doctson.

 

 

Kirk is our guy though and I back him.

 

I heard he's going to just throw TDS To  himself this year. 

 

Organization might sign him to a long-term deal after that.

 

I wasn't overly impressed with Wentz.  He came out of the gates hot, but hit a pretty big wall.  He did end the season decently well though.  This year will tell a lot for Wentz and Dak

 

Also, will be interested to see if McVay can do anything with Jared Goff

 

I wasn't high on either Goff or Wentz coming out of college, but time will tell

[Morneblade]

3 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

 

Dudes, its cool we dont agree. I already have been here with yall on this and I know we dont agree lol. We dont have to its cool. Just my opinion on it. Llevron thinks that you win with defense, not offense, and that building to that is the way to go. Not giving all your moneys to 1 guy and hoping he loves you afterwards. Thats how Llevron would avoid the problem we are in and win some games. 

 

Couple of things. First, we don't have to agree. But it's better to have an informed opinion. It makes it easier to make your case, and all that jazz.

Second, you never mentioned your views in defense, just that you don't like Cousins. I happen to SHARE you views in defense, and anyone that has been here for a while will tell you I'm adamant about defense. It wins championships, just like this year. But that was not the issue.

 

And you have seen out defense, right? It's horrible. It's years away from being dominant, if we're lucky. A really good offense can get us wins in the meantime.

 

Quote

 

I totally think we can find a Joe Flacco @petedaddy 

 

Flacco needed a top D to get him anywhere. You see what Flacco does with a "meh" defense? Nothing.

 

Quote

@Morneblade Uh...yea. Hes not a rookie? And he wont get a prove it deal. That time is passed. Somehow you agree with my point, miss it, and then call me dumb lol. Thats stupid. 

 

Somehow I point out that he already had his rookie deal, already got his prove it deal (TWICE) and you're ****ing about it. And then you call me stupid. Really?

You really can't figure out for yourself, that he's already had them, and to create real stablity in the franchise you sign the guy. You don't just NOT sign Rodgers of Brady, because you can't get them for cheap anymore. 

 

That's stupid.

 

Quote

@ Both of yall - When did we start characterizing RG3 as a passer? And when did we start expecting someone like Colt McCoy to preform in the top 10 of his position in the first year of a new system? As a back up? Yall gotta do better. 

 

You're the one who said "any QB". Now it's on you, bro. Or are you finding that "any QB" isn't going to be enough anymore?

 

Quote

 

I dont like your fav. player. Get over it. Dont know why YOU think we have to agree. Just stating my opinion should be enough. And whats funny is that I was agreeing with you both in that he is a top 10. Yall are just looking for a knife fight in this joint lol

 

No, it shouldn't. You're opinion is worth nothing, unless you can back it up with something. Right now you don't have anything. And you never said you thought he was top 10. If you think he is, and yet you think that any QB can come in and do the same things?

 

You either don't know what top 10 means, or you need to pass me what you're smoking, because whatever it is, it's off the chain.

[Llevron]

Nvm. Y'all got it. 

 

I hope it burns y'all up I don't agree lol 

[WelshSkinsFan]

For what it's worth 99.999999% of people reading Passer would interpret that as QB, the .0000001% who thought you maybe meant the long snapper are Dallas fans.

[Llevron]

Nvm. Y'all go it lol 

[Morneblade]

16 minutes ago, Llevron said:

@Morneblade lol dawg go back and read what you quoted and then read what you wrote. 

 

I very clearly said Jay can do enough with any PASSER. You changed that to any QB for the sake of your argument. When. Have we called RG3 a passer in the last 4 years? 

 

And your right. I never said I thought he was top 10. Accept in the VERY FIRST QUOTE YOU MADE OF ME TODAY. 

 

Go away dude I don't know what your problem is but I'm really not trying to deal with it. You got it. 

 

Sorry dude, that was yesterday, forgot you said you thought he was top 10, I supposed because you want to get rid of him. Because "reasons"

 

As far as "passer", no you just want to move the goal posts. RGIII is a QB, they pass. Won Rookie of the Year.

 

As for the rest, you still don't really have a defendable position on why we should get rid of a good QB, outside of the fact you don't like him, because "reasons".

 

Don't worry, I'm done with you too. #20 on the /ignore list.

[Llevron]

3 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Sorry dude, that was yesterday, forgot you said you thought he was top 10

 

Yesterday. What time zone are you in? That was 5 hours ago and the only reason you started talking to me in the first place. See what I'm saying here people? 

 

And you having 20 people on your block list says more about you than it does me. 

 

Until next time playa

[Tsailand]

I think we should stop discussing RG3 in Kirk Cousins threads.  It's honestly insulting to compare them.

 

I like Kirk too, but "he's better than RG3" is not a good argument, because there are 40 NFL QBs better than RG3, or 90 if you take injury history into account.

[HTTRDynasty]

It's pretty hard for me to argue with the 2016 QB rankings from this article: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000769426/article/qb-index-tom-brady-owns-no-1-in-yearend-rankings

 

Best of the best

 

1) Tom Brady, New England Patriots (Final 2015 ranking: 3)

2) Matt Ryan, Atlanta Falcons (2015: 15)

3) Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers (2015: 9)

 

Top shelf

4) Andrew Luck, Indianapolis Colts (2015: N/A)

5) Derek Carr, Oakland Raiders (2015: 10)

6) Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints (2015: 7)

7) Dak Prescott, Dallas Cowboys (2015: N/A)

8) Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions (2015: 19)

9) Russell Wilson, Seattle Seahawks (2015: 4)

10) Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers (2015: 5)

 

Part of the solution

11) Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers (2015: 8)

12) Carson Palmer, Arizona Cardinals (2015: 2)

13) Kirk Cousins, Washington Redskins (2015: 11)

Cousins showed improved pocket toughness and deep-play ability all season. There is a risk that he's maxed out his potential, but a mid-level starting quarterback has plenty of value.

 

 

[Morneblade]

26 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

It's pretty hard for me to argue with the 2016 QB rankings from this article: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000769426/article/qb-index-tom-brady-owns-no-1-in-yearend-rankings

 

Best of the best

 

1) Tom Brady, New England Patriots (Final 2015 ranking: 3)

2) Matt Ryan, Atlanta Falcons (2015: 15)

3) Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers (2015: 9)

 

Top shelf

4) Andrew Luck, Indianapolis Colts (2015: N/A)

5) Derek Carr, Oakland Raiders (2015: 10)

6) Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints (2015: 7)

7) Dak Prescott, Dallas Cowboys (2015: N/A)

8) Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions (2015: 19)

9) Russell Wilson, Seattle Seahawks (2015: 4)

10) Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers (2015: 5)

 

Part of the solution

11) Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers (2015: 8)

12) Carson Palmer, Arizona Cardinals (2015: 2)

13) Kirk Cousins, Washington Redskins (2015: 11)

Cousins showed improved pocket toughness and deep-play ability all season. There is a risk that he's maxed out his potential, but a mid-level starting quarterback has plenty of value.

 

 

 

Some of these are actually hysterical!

[HTTRDynasty]

4 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Some of these are actually hysterical!

 

Which ones do you not agree with?  I'd put Cousins ahead of Palmer and Rivers, but that's pretty much it (based on 2016 performance).

[Morneblade]

3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Which ones do you not agree with?  I'd put Cousins ahead of Palmer and Rivers, but that's pretty much it (based on 2016 performance).

Wilson, Stafford, Luck, Prescott,

He and Carr are close, Carr has more help though.

Edit: And the 2 you mentioned

[Spearfeather]

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Which ones do you not agree with?  I'd put Cousins ahead of Palmer and Rivers, but that's pretty much it (based on 2016 performance).

 

Carr at 5, and Cousins at 13 ?

[Morneblade]

12 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

Top shelf

4) Andrew Luck, Indianapolis Colts (2015: N/A)

5) Derek Carr, Oakland Raiders (2015: 10)

6) Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints (2015: 7)

7) Dak Prescott, Dallas Cowboys (2015: N/A)

8) Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions (2015: 19)

9) Russell Wilson, Seattle Seahawks (2015: 4)

10) Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers (2015: 5)

 

This is all a jumbled mess. My top shelf would look like this:

4. Brees

5. Roethlisberger

6. Cousins

7. Carr

 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

Just now, Morneblade said:

Wilson, Stafford, Luck, Prescott,

He and Carr are close, Carr has more help though.

 

You don't think Luck was able to do more with less?  He put up more TDs with less weapons around him.

 

Stafford was in the MVP conversation until his injury at the end of the season.  So was Carr. 

 

Prescott is arguable.  It depends how much you value efficiency over bulk stats.

 

I will say that Cousins definitely had a better overall season than Wilson last year from a stats perspective, but I would be interested to see what Cousins would do behind that Seattle O-Line.

[HTTRDynasty]

12 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

Carr at 5, and Cousins at 13 ?

 

You realize Carr was the leading candidate for MVP for a lot of last season, right?  He played at an extremely high level.

[Tsailand]

34 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

It's pretty hard for me to argue with the 2016 QB rankings from this article: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000769426/article/qb-index-tom-brady-owns-no-1-in-yearend-rankings

 

It's really convenient to look only at 2016, lets you ignore all those QBs who sucked or were injured in 2015 while Kirk was kicking ass.

 

Kirk is 4th in ANY/A over the last two years. http://pfref.com/tiny/ShjZ4

[HTTRDynasty]

16 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

 

It's really convenient to look only at 2016, lets you ignore all those QBs who sucked or were injured in 2015 while Kirk was kicking ass.

 

Kirk is 4th in ANY/A over the last two years. http://pfref.com/tiny/ShjZ4

 

I wasn't trying to prove any particular point with that article.  I just posted it because I mostly agree with the author's 2016 rankings.  I agree that he had a better 2015 than some of those guys in front of him.  That link you posted isn't working for me by the way.

 

Coincidentally, Cousins is also ranked 13th by PFF for the 2016 season.  This list is actually pretty similar, in terms of the players listed in front of Kirk, to the NFL.com one I posted earlier:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-this-season/

 

1. Tom Brady, New England Patriots

2016 overall grade: 96.4

2. Matt Ryan, Atlanta Falcons

2016 overall grade: 90.8

3. Andrew Luck, Indianapolis Colts

2016 overall grade: 91.8

4. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers

2016 overall grade: 89.7

5. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints

2016 overall grade: 87.4

6. Russell Wilson, Seattle Seahawks

2016 overall grade: 85.9

7. Derek Carr, Oakland Raiders

2016 overall grade: 86.1

8. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers

2016 overall grade: 78.5

9. Cam Newton, Carolina Panthers

2016 overall grade: 83.7

10. Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions

2016 overall grade: 87.9

11. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers

2016 overall grade: 79.4

12. Dak Prescott, Dallas Cowboys

2016 overall grade: 82.5

13. Kirk Cousins, Washington Redskins

2016 overall grade: 83.9

After a slow start, Cousins has found his groove once again, ranking as the No. 5 quarterback in the league since Week 5. He’s added more of a big-play element to his game, leading the league with 1,137 yards on deep passes while ranking second with 11 touchdowns. Cousins has also been among the league’s best at avoiding turnover-worthy plays, ranking ninth in that area. One of the more underrated parts of Cousins’ game is his ability to avoid sacks and he’s been taken down on only 10.6 percent of his pressured dropbacks, the lowest percentage in the league. If there’s an area to improve, it’s in the red zone where Cousins has not been efficient, but he overall he continues to show himself to be a viable NFL quarterback.

 

[mistertim]

27 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

You don't think Luck was able to do more with less?  He put up more TDs with less weapons around him.

 

Stafford was in the MVP conversation until his injury at the end of the season.  So was Carr. 

 

Prescott is arguable.  It depends how much you value efficiency over bulk stats.

 

I will say that Cousins definitely had a better overall season than Wilson last year from a stats perspective, but I would be interested to see what Cousins would do behind that Seattle O-Line.

 

Luck also has an absolutely terrible OL and it's been that way for a while. He was sacked 41 times in 15 games last season and still managed to put up 31 TDs to 13 INTs while throwing for about 700 less yards than Kirk. I think Kirk is a good QB but I think precisely 0/32 GMs would take Kirk over Luck if they could have either for the same price.

[HTTRDynasty]

21 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Luck also has an absolutely terrible OL and it's been that way for a while. He was sacked 41 times in 15 games last season and still managed to put up 31 TDs to 13 INTs while throwing for about 700 less yards than Kirk. I think Kirk is a good QB but I think precisely 0/32 GMs would take Kirk over Luck if they could have either for the same price.

 

I agree.  Context is definitely needed when comparing Kirk's stats to other QB's.  Kirk has had a top 5 pass blocking OL and a top 3 receiving corps.  Obviously Kirk has helped those units as well, but it's pretty clear when you compare the talent of our OL and receiving corps, without considering the QB, to the talent of the OL/receiving corps for teams like Indy or Seattle, that the pieces on offense Kirk has around him are much better than what those other two have, and those pieces have helped his stats a ton.

[XxSpearheadxX]

9 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

I hope it burns y'all up I don't agree lol 

No it's just difficult to understand people saying its cold out when its obviously 75 degrees. Sure its not 105, but nobody wantr to hear about how you are bummed you didnt bring your parka when chances are tomorrow its going to be 85 maybe even 90 degrees out.

 

I hope kirk signs a "reasonable

" deal tho, i don't want his conrract to hurt our defensive $ allocation. I absolutely don't want him to get away though either, as long as he doesn't pull the I just don't like it here stuff.