Penalties - Players/Coach Responsabilities - Week 4 Update

[Wildbunny]

With the season approaching, one debate will surface again after each game. Coaching sucks because of player X doing this or that penalty. It happened last year, it will happen this year as well as the season goes on. In my understanding of things, players are first and foremost responsible of penalties, and it’s up to the positional coach to correct those penalties. Still, sometimes penalties are a result of a coaching wanting his players to be more aggressive and not care that much of penalties.

 

So, I decided to go back and take the full list of each and one penalties that may occur during a game and see if it’s a player’s or a coach that is to blame for the penalty. Since the list is long, the post will be huge, even worse than those from GHH.

 

I had to do some research regarding a few of them, because, I wasn't aware of their existence, and I'm pretty sure you're gonna find one or two that you weren't aware of. Have a good read, and get prepared for debating all of these.

 

Those are sorted by distance awarded

 

Automatic First Down

1. Awarded to offensive team on all defensive fouls with these exceptions:

1. Offside.
2. Encroachment.
3. Delay of game.
4. Illegal substitution.
5. Excessive time out(s).
6. Neutral zone infraction.
7. Running into the kicker.
8. More than 11 players on the field at the snap.

 

Five Yards

1. Defensive holding or illegal use of hands (automatic first down).

Penalty for using hands to pull and hold an offensive player out of the 5 yards mark of the line of scrimmage. Easy to call the player here, but that’s the kind of penalties that are not always called by the refs as trenches are often a huge chaos of big bodies all over and refs can easily miss them. I’m pretty sure some coach are teaching their guys to do it in a sneaky way that’s not too blatant. Player: 50% - Coach 50%

1. Delay of game on offense or defense.

I love that penalty. A first, you would say it’s a QB responsibility for not paying attention to the time left before snapping. And that’s right. Most of the time, it should be on the QB. Still, in a game there’s many occasion where you’ll need a delay of game as a coach, and may then order your player to do some. Example: Distance is too long for your kicker to try a FG, but too short for your punter as you don’t want him to make a touchback. That 5 yards penalty will help your punter. As well, on the defensive side you may ask your guys to disrupt an offense going no huddle to make a few substitutions. You give up five yards but can stop momentum on the offense. Players: 10% - Coach: 90%

1. Delay of kickoff.

A penalty that does not happen quite often and that works like a delay of game. Still, just like delay of game, you can decide to take the penalty just to run the clock. Coach: 100%

1. Encroachment.

Defensive player that cross the LOS before the snap and makes contact with an OL. That one is entirely on the player. No defensive coach will tell you to go for an encroachment. That may be driven by the offensive coach and the QB, if the defense is super aggressive, you may take your time on a 4 and 3 to try to get that penalty (or an offside) and be awarded a First Down. Player: 100%

1. Excessive time out(s).

Happens when a team tries to call more time out than they owns. It’s entirely on the head coach here. Coach: 100%

Side Note: That happened during a Cowboys vs Redskins game, and the refs missed it, but since we called a TO on this play, it negated it, and the Cowboys made the FG to win the game in 2011…

1. False start.

A player in the front seven moves before the ball is snapped. As they are strictly not allowed to move, that’s entirely on them. Player: 100%

1. Illegal formation.

That’s a player that is not where he should be. Once again, it’s up to the player to know where he have to be placed, that’s football 101 here. Player: 100%

1. Illegal shift.

Players have to be set for one second before the snap. So it’s on them. Still, a coach may be responsible on this when conducting no huddle offense as offense tries to go faster and then, someone miss the assignment. (Which is where that penalty occurs more). Player: 70% - Coach: 30%

1. Illegal motion.

Two things can cause this. First you cannot motion toward the LOS, and second, you have to stop motion before the snap. Just like the illegal formation it’s on the player. Be it, the one in motion or the QB or Center for not paying attention. Player: 100%

1. Illegal substitution.

That penalty occurs when there’s too many players on the field. Sure it can be because of a player not listening to the coach or not knowing the play, but I would suggest it’s mostly bad communications from the coaching staff or the coach mismanaging its own players. Coach: 100%

1. First onside kickoff out of bounds between goal lines and untouched or last touched by kicker.

That’s a stupid penalty. Blame the kicker! Player: 100%

1. Invalid fair catch signal.

Another stupid penalty you don’t want to have as a coach. It’s basic here. Player: 100%

1. More than 11 players on the field at snap for either team.

As the illegal substitution, it’s entirely on the Head Coach here. Tom Coughlin even did it on purpose to chew some time once in 2012. Coach: 100%

1. Less than seven men on offensive line at snap.

Another penalty where someone doesn’t know where to stand… Coach does have to bust that guys ass for that kind of penalty. Player: 100%

1. Offside.

A player that is on the wrong side of the LOS when the ball is snapped. It’s up to the player to know where he is on the field. But the ball have to be snapped for this penalty to occur. Player: 100%

1. Failure to pause one second after shift or huddle.

QB have to pause after someone made a shift on the offensive side. If you don’t that’s a penalty. And if that happens it’s on the QB or Center heavily, you just have to know the rules. Player: 100%

1. Running into kicker.

This is not to be mistaken with the Roughing the Kicker penalty. That’s a penalty you get if a player trying to block a kick hit the kicker doing so. Still, it is to be noted that if the kick is blocked, the penalty is usually not called as contact is often incidental. I can see an aggressive ST coach encouraging the blockers to go full throttle and not care much about this penalty, as it’s only 5 yards and not an automatic first down. So I would say it’s Player: 60% - Coach: 40%

1. More than one man in motion at snap.

The name of the penalty speaks for itself. One man at a time. If you don’t, someone’s messing heavily as I don’t see a coach creating that kind of play and asking his players to do it on purpose. Player: 100%

1. Player out of bounds at snap.

Seriously? Player: 100%

1. Ineligible member(s) of kicking team going beyond line of scrimmage before ball is kicked.

Once again, someone doesn’t know basic football. Player: 100%

1. Failure to report change of eligibility.

It’s the player’s responsibility to notify the Ref that he is eligible on the play. If he fails on it, then it’s up to him to take the blame for it. Player: 100%

1. Neutral zone infraction.

Penalty where a defensive player enter the neutral zone in order to make a false start from any OL. I don’t see how a coach would teach a player into this. So, to me, that’s on the player. Player: 100%

1. Ineligible player downfield during passing down.

OL are not allowed to cross the LOS during passing plays, with the exception of screen plays, as even though it’s a forward pass, it’s catched behind the LOS. This usually happens because of running QB that may lure OL into thinking it’s a run finally while it’s not. Player: 100%

1. Second forward pass behind the line.

That is something interesting to discuss, as there can be only one forward pass thrown during a play. Still, sometimes, when doing a lateral, it’s in fact a forward pass because the receiver is slightly in advance. Which result in a second forward pass. I’d blame the players for it (thrower, receiver with both responsibility), but I would also blame the coach as play design is sometimes really tight and will easily create the mistake. Player: 60% - Coach: 40%

1. Forward pass is first touched by eligible receiver who has gone out of bounds and returned.

I would say it’s basic football, but sometimes you just don’t pay enough attention where your feet are and you don’t know you just committed the penalty. Still, it’s up to you to pay attention when DB will gladly love to put you in such a position. I would say it’s better sometimes to take that kind of penalty instead of giving an INT.  Player: 90% - Coach: 10%

1. Forward pass touches or is caught by an ineligible receiver on or behind line.

Just like above, you have to know if you can or cannot receive a pass. As well, it’s sometimes better to take the penalty instead of throwing an INT. Player: 100% - Coach: 10%

1. Forward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage after ball once crossed the line.

Pay attention guys! Well, I mean QB. You have to know where you stand on the field and what you are doing. Player: 100%

1. Kicking team player voluntarily out of bounds during a punt.

Another position penalty that falls on the player. Player: 100%

1. Twelve (12) men in the huddle.

Just like the Illegal Substitution, it’s up to the coach to check that kind of things. Coach: 100%

 

Ten Yards

1. Offensive pass interference.

You’re not supposed to shove a defensive player, to prevent him to make a play on the ball, or to pick a guy so a teammate makes a play. That’s the theory. Still, since it’s rarely called and the penalty is just 10 yards and no loss of down, I’m pretty sure WR Coach are teaching their guys into doing it to prevent an interception. If it’s done nicely you might get away with just an incomplete pass. Player: 10% - Coach: 90%

1. Holding, illegal use of hands, arms, or body by offense.

Just like the defensive holding, an offensive player is not supposed to drag a player into the ground or grabs his jersey. And just like the defensive one, that’s a penalty that is not often seen or called by the refs (Ask Orakpo). Pretty sure players are here again using hoping it won’t get noticed from time to times or that coaches are telling them to do it on a few occasion if it may help. Player: 50% - Coach: 50%

1. Tripping by a member of either team.

You should not trip another player, and I don’t really any reason to teach that kind of trick, really. Player: 100%

1. Helping the runner.

You cannot help a runner from behind, you cannot push him forward or whatever. And that’s on the player to know it. Player: 100%

1. Deliberately batting or punching a loose ball.

Problem I do have here, is the “deliberately”. If you look clumsy enough, you can punch the ball without anyone noticing. Try to look like you’re trying to scoop it up, but throws him forward and you’ll get free of it. Pretty sure coaches are teaching how to do it unnoticed. Player 50% - Coach: 50%

1. Deliberately kicking a loose ball.

Same thing as above, except you have to look like you just walked on the ball or stumbled on it… Player: 50% - Coach: 50%

1. Illegal block above the waist.

AKA, illegal block in the back, I can’t come up with a way for a coach asking guys to do it. Player: 100%

 

Fifteen Yards

1. Chop block.

A chop block is one player blocking another while a second one comes and makes a block around the knees. Strictly forbidden nowadays, I don’t see a coach teaching it, and if they do, they should get banned from the NFL ASAP to me. And players doing this should get suspended as well. Player: 100%

1. Clipping below the waist.

You cannot block in the back, and furthermore below the waist. We’re once again talking player security that lands on the player. Player: 100%

1. Fair catch interference.

I know that the interference can go from tackling the guy that just passing nearby, still, you just don’t do it. Player: 100%

1. Illegal crackback block by offense.

If the crackback block is allowed, you have to be wary on it as you cannot do it below the waist. So, it’s up to the player’s technique to do it nicely, and on the coach to teach how to do it. We’re talking 15 yards penalties here. Player: 60% - Coach: 40%

1. Piling on.

Sadly, that’s a penalty as I always found it fun to see guys pile on just for the sake of it. Can as well be known as a late hit. And since it’s completely useless to do it, it’s on the player to take the blame! Player: 100%

1. Roughing the kicker.

Unlike running into the kicker, it have to be significant to be called Roughing. And since we’re talking 15 yards and first down, you don’t want this to happen as kicks are done on 4^th down usually, and you don’t want to give the ball back to the offense. Player: 100%

1. Roughing the passer.

One of my favorites penalties! You just don’t want to rough the passer. Except if you’re playing the Redskins (check the Conspiracy Thread for this). I’m pretty sure some defensive coaches are telling their guys to go put some freaking pressure on the QB early in the game, or after a change at the QB position to get quickly into his head and tell him that it’s gonna be a long day or bruises for him. Player: 50% - Coach: 50%

1. Twisting, turning, or pulling an opponent by the facemask.

No, no, no and no! Seriously, your coach told you to make a facemask to stop a guy? If that’s the only way you know how to do it, you don’t belong in the NFL. Player: 100%

1. Unnecessary roughness.

You have to stay within limits and play fair. Tough, but fair. It’s on you to know how to do it. Still, coaches may be so willing to push their players to the limits that they have a hard time seeing the line and cross it here and there. Player: 80% - Coach: 20%

1. Unsportsmanlike conduct.

Those guys are lacking discipline here… They cannot remain cool. I’ll call it on the player, even if coaches can draw some unsportsmanlike conduct as well (except John Harbaugh). Player: 100%

1. Illegal low block.

Just like every blocking strategy, you have to show proper technique when blocking, and you just cannot block below the knees. I would think it’s mostly a player in despair that tries to make a play that ends up being an illegal low block. Player: 100%

1. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.

Tackling technique! Something we are good at! I always find it fun to see guys that doesn’t know how to make tackles at the NFL level. Coaches are supposed to teach it, but well, we’re talking professional that doesn’t know how to tackle and are brainless enough to use their helmet to do it? Bleh… I’ll concede a few for teaching how to tackle, but still… Player: 80% - Coach: 20%

1. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

Another really stupid penalty. Player: 100%

1. A punter, placekicker, or holder who simulates being roughed by a defensive player.

Love that one! Really! Player: 100%

1. Leaping.

Trouble with this penalty? You have to be more than 1 yard away of the LOS for it to be called. I can see coaches telling their guys to do it even if they are slightly more than 1 yard away, just don’t make it too blatant before leaping over the LOS for the tackle or block the kick. Player: 50% - Coach: 50%

1. Leverage.

You just can’t use a teammate or an opposing player to go higher to block a kick. (see Eric Foster – Colts vs Cowboys). That’s the kind of penalty that’s hard to miss for the Ref, except maybe Ray Charles… Player: 100%

1. Any player who removes his helmet after a play while on the field.

Dez Bryant learned it the hard way. Because he didn’t know that was a penalty… Player: 100%

1. Taunting.

The taunting penalty. The one that prevents excessive celebrations from players… Wish Victor Cruz could end up in this category… Well, since it’s really subjective to the ref, and it’s a ****ing 15 yards penalty, just STFU and act like a pro. Forget about stupid and long celebrations… Just do it like it’s casual business for you to score a TD! Player: 100%

 

Spot of the Foul

1. Defensive Pass Interference

Since that penalty is not specifically written on this page: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/penaltysummaries (the one I used for this), I had to create a specific category for the infamous DPI. It’s just the same thing as OPI, except that for the defense, rules of non contact starts when the ball is in the air, while for offense it starts at the snap. Considering the fact that it’s at the spot of the foul, you don’t want your guys to commit it. I could envision coaches wanting it to happen in the endzone, because it will put the ball on the 1 yard line, but you really, really, don’t want this to happen. Player: 90% - Coach: 10%

 

Five Yards and Loss of Down (Combination Penalty)

1. Forward pass thrown from beyond line of scrimmage.

Like every other throwing penalties, that one is purely on the passer. If you commit it, it’s because you didn’t pay too much attention. Player: 100%

 

Ten Yards and Loss of Down (Combination Penalty)

1. Intentional grounding of forward pass (safety if passer is in own end zone). If foul occurs more than 10 yards behind line, play results in loss of down at spot of foul.

Here is a really subjective call we have to see here and there. If you’re Tom Brady, it’s not an intentional grounding, it’s the receiver that don’t know his routes. If you’re RG3, that’s blatant IG obviously, even if the receiver dropped the ball. I will say coaches will told ya to do it if you’re about to take a 10+ yards sack. Penalty will be lower. Player: 80% - Coach: 20%

 

Fifteen Yards and Loss of Coin Toss Option

1. Team’s late arrival on the field prior to scheduled kickoff.

That one really made me laugh. I never thought that was in the rules. Seriously. Who’s to blame? The bus driver? Just so you know, it’s up to the team to take care of any traffic jams and not get stucked in it… I’ll put the blame on the GM or the President, Owner… Whoever you want.

1. Captains not appearing for coin toss.

What could really prevent Captains from not appearing for coin toss? Once again, it’s such a stupid penalty that it’s really hard to know who’s to blame. Captains have to know it, Coaches have to tell them… Well, eventually I’ll put it on the Coaches solely, they are the ones that have to sent the captains. Coach: 100%

 

Fifteen Yards (and disqualification if flagrant)

1. Striking opponent with fist.

This is football, not Street Fighter… Player: 100%

1. Kicking or kneeing opponent.

I told ya, it’s Football, not Mortal Kombat! Player: 100%

1. Striking opponent on head or neck with forearm, elbow, or hands whether or not the initial contact is made below the neck area.

That is not Tekken as well… Player: 100%

1. Roughing kicker.

Never, never, never… Player: 100%

1. Roughing passer.

Except if you’re doing it on Kirk Cousins, you just can’t go to that kind of punishment. Unlive above, here we’re standing solely on the player. Player: 100%

1. Malicious unnecessary roughness.

Unnecessary roughness is already on the player to me, but if it’s malicious, it’s even worse against him. Player: 100%

1. Unsportsmanlike conduct.

Already debated, that shows lack of discipline and is obviously on the player or any coach but John Harbaugh obviously again. Player: 100%

1. Palpably unfair act. (Distance penalty determined by the Referee after consultation with other officials.)

The best example I would have on this is Mike Tomlin walking in bound to obstruct an opposing guy doing a return. It wasn’t called, but that’s the best example I do have. So it’s solely on the one doing it, be it Player or Coach. Player: 100% or Coach: 100%

 

15 Yards and Automatic Disqualification

1. Using a helmet (not worn) as a weapon.

This is not Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat or Tekken. I’ve already said it. This is not Soul Calibur either. Player: 100%

1. Striking or purposely shoving a game official.

Sick of all this combat games… Let’s go play Hello Kitty Online… Player: 100%

 

Suspension From Game For One Down

1. Illegal equipment. (Player may return after one down when legally equipped.)

There’s strict regulation of the equipment that may be worn, players should be aware of it, but has Dez Bryant taught us, players most often doesn’t even know the rules they are playing under. I’d say the equipment guy is to blame, as well as the coach, if you have any doubt, ask the ref before wearing it. Player: 20% - Coach: 80%

 

Touchdown Awarded (Palpably Unfair Act)

1. When Referee determines a palpably unfair act deprived a team of a touchdown.

Last and definitely not least. An example of this would be a player coming out of the bench to tackle a player about to score a TD on the field. I would say that this is on the player, or the coach, or anyone that does it. And, if it’s a player or coach, he do have to get cut or fired ASAP. Player: 100% or Coach: 100%

 

Finally went through them all. I hope you made it so far, if you did, kudos to you.

 

Obviously, that’s just my personal take on each of them, and I’m always willing to debate any of them. I’ll be even happier to debate those penalties that will occur during the year and see if they belong to the player or the coach, if they were corrected or not by coaching, which is an important part of it. Sadly, I hardly have access to vids, and can only watch games online. I wish I could post videos of each penalties to make it easier to discuss them all. At the least the play-by-play would help to some extent. It’ll be even interesting if some opponents penalties are driven by Redskins players.

[Burgold]

Lot of work. 

 

I think the caveat on the player vs. coach role comes down to the power of the bench. A player is responsible for most penalties, a coach can try to groom it out of him, but if the player keeps fouling and the coach doesn't sit him then eventually the blame shifts to the coach. At some point, the coach has to reach the player or remove him esp. if it is a chronic problem.

 

If you have a Brandon Merriweather who just can't stop spearing and he's killing your team with penalties every day... then you need to get through to him. Even if he's the best safety on your team, you sit him. If you don't he figures that ultimately he can keep getting away with it and what he's doing is right or the team approves of him doing it that way.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

HOLA! Who knew there were SO many ways to get penalised with such subtle distinctions between them. 

 

Excellent, excellent work from one of our French friends. Thank you man. Appealing to my analytical side that is a greatly appreciated OP. 

 

I think the short answer is everyone from the top on down in an organisation has a responsibility to set the discipline and standards to be met and to daily lead by example.

 

But as regards the on field discipline, that is mainly on the Coaches for me. They have the job of instilling that in their players and team. Yeah, you need self discipline as players. But jocks often aren't the smartest of guys. They've just been blessed with natural God given talent. And they need that leadership and discipline from the coaches. Which starts and ends with the guy they all look upto to lead them into battle come Sunday's. Their Head Coach. 

 

Pure talent alone can mask a lot. But talent only takes you so far. And an ill-disciplined team will invariably not be a successful team. 

 

There can't be ANY excuse from a Coaches POV IMHO to run such a team.

 

Love it or hate it that's why he get's paid the big bucks to be in that position. He's the leader of this group of young men.

 

It starts and ends with HIM!

 

Hail. 

[TSO]

Great work Wildbunny, glad to see you finished it.

He's been working on this for some time now and wants this to become the de facto thread on penalties throughout the season, so help him out guys and gals.

[Wildbunny]

Lot of work. 

 

I think the caveat on the player vs. coach role comes down to the power of the bench. A player is responsible for most penalties, a coach can try to groom it out of him, but if the player keeps fouling and the coach doesn't sit him then eventually the blame shifts to the coach. At some point, the coach has to reach the player or remove him esp. if it is a chronic problem.

 

If you have a Brandon Merriweather who just can't stop spearing and he's killing your team with penalties every day... then you need to get through to him. Even if he's the best safety on your team, you sit him. If you don't he figures that ultimately he can keep getting away with it and what he's doing is right or the team approves of him doing it that way.

 

That's exactly my point. And what I want to develop through the year to see which players improves on this part and those who don't. If none improves, then the coaching will be in trouble to me.If some do, but others don't, then problem will reside in the player.

 

But jocks often aren't the smartest of guys.

 

I agree with almost everything you said GHH, but the only part I highlighted is the most important. As you said it, those guys aren't always the smartest ones, and some just doesn't take coaching really well. They think they know better and stick to it.

 

To go further with what I was talking, let's say for example that in Week 1 against the Dolphins our OL is responsible for 6 Holding calls.

1 against Trent, 2 against Scherff, 2 against Lauvao and 1 against Licht. That would drive Bill Callahan mad and he'll make them work on it, teaching proper technique to make succesful blocks without being flagged.

 

Now, during week 2,3 and 4 you notice that the line gets flagged 4,2 and 1 time only. And that Scherff, Licht and Williams are not flagged anymore but Lauvao still is. I would then say, that holdings to come from Lauvao are more on him not taking good coaching than on Callahan being unable to teach it.

 

Great work Wildbunny, glad to see you finished it.

He's been working on this for some time now and wants this to become the de facto thread on penalties throughout the season, so help him out guys and gals.

 

Thanks for the support, it's appreciated, but that was just the easiest part of it.

[nemocystem]

I believe that generally, the odd penalty comes down to a player mistake, or boneheaded play. Sometimes it's just getting beat & "taking one for the team." This is excluding the rare :: smirk :: bad call from the officials.

That said...if the penalties are frequent, & far reaching...then the coaches are DEFINITELY to blame. If penalties are a culture, or an epidemic...the coaches aren't doing enough to "coach" the players out of the behavior.

[Bang]

Penalties are an indication of discipline.

That's on coaches.
If an individual player can't be disciplined, that's still on coaches.

 

Penalties occur to even the most disciplined of teams, but teams that get penalized a lot, this is on coaching, and i'd say by a wide margin. Like 90%.

 

~Bang

[Peregrine]

Individuals commit penalties, but the continued commitment of penalties is all on the coach.  Either they continue to let someone play who wont listen, or they dont teach them not to.

[Wildbunny]

Individuals commit penalties, but the continued commitment of penalties is all on the coach.  Either they continue to let someone play who wont listen, or they dont teach them not to.

 

If you were the coach, would you bench Trent Williams if he was not giving up any sack each game but commit 5 holdings penalties each game as well? And no matter what you do, guy remains a stud, but cannot cut off his penalties?

 

Blaming the coach is the easy way for me, as it cuts off any player with any kind of individual responsability although they are the one playing.

[Burgold]

rare  bad call from the officials.

 

 Rare? :paranoid:

 

Not if you're a Redskins' fan :kickcan:

[TSO]

Penalties are an indication of discipline.

That's on coaches.

If an individual player can't be disciplined, that's still on coaches.

 

Penalties occur to even the most disciplined of teams, but teams that get penalized a lot, this is on coaching, and i'd say by a wide margin. Like 90%.

 

~Bang

 

You'd think it'd be that simple. That we can tie up a nice bow on it and call it a law... but it's pretty perplexing that some of the best teams in recent years (Seahawks, Patriots, Colts, Denver, San Fran, Baltimore, etc...) are some of the most penalized as well.

 

And before you say San Fran and Baltimore weren't good last year, San Fran was 5th overall in penalties in 2013 when they were in the NFC championship game. Baltimore was top 10 the last two years. And guess what? Baltimore was number one in 2012, the year they won the Super Bowl.  

 

The two most penalized teams last year were the Seahawks and Pats, both ended up playing for the championship. Amazingly, in 2013, the two most penalized teams were the Seahawks and Broncos, who also ended up playing for the championship. 

 

I'm not sure you'd find anyone willing to say these teams aren't coached well or disciplined. It's pretty damn mind-boggling.

 

I think this really is an interesting case study here. Like, what if this gives us an indication as to just how much personnel matters over coaching, and vice versa? 

 

If what you're saying is true, Bang, and on the surface it'd seem so... then why are those teams able to overcome the issue, as significant as it is, so well? Is it possible that their personnel is so well kept that discipline isn't as important, and the talent simply overcomes it? Or are they simply brilliant at scheming and just utterly incompetent at disciplining? 

 

Hard to believe the latter, wouldn't you say? 

 

The other "case study" here would be conspiratorial. Better for the conspiracy thread, actually. I think it's pretty wild that since 2012, every team that's been in the Super Bowl has finished in the top three for penalties. Actually, in 2013 and 2014, the top two teams were the Super Bowl opponents as mentioned above. In 2012, Baltimore was number one and their opponent, San Fran, was number three.

 

So here's the conspiracy theory... are those teams playing in games whose outcomes are being heavily controlled by the refs? On the surface, you'd think it'd hurt them since they're being more penalized. But what if that's a way to hide their being favored? We'd have to look at every game they played in and if both teams were penalized more than the average in those games, it'd lend this theory credence.

 

Basically, that the reason they're so heavily penalized is because their opponents are ALSO being heavily penalized (and probably during more significant moments, like scoring plays) to help them out, and the penalties on them are not as damaging (they occur early during games when it's inconsequential, later during games when it's out of reach, etc...). So it serves as a great front and fans can point to all the penalties to downplay any claim by others that the refs were favoring one side.

 

*X Files theme music* 

[CBass1724]

I'd say a majority of the time, penalties should be blamed on players.  Most penalties are because a player is caught out of position or just gets beat.  They need to play better and get better.  You can't blame that on a coach because these guys are not coaching their players to be in the wrong spot.  The players know where they need to be and when you execute your plays properly, you have no reason to commit any penalties.

 

In instances like having a head-hunting DB, coaching can definitely help curb that, but it still all comes down to the player having discipline and the smarts to not go for the head.

 

The one penalty that can be attributed to the coach more than 75% of the time are delay of game penalties.  More often than not, that's on the coaching staff not getting plays in quickly enough or having too complicated of a process to get said play to the QB in time.  Also too many men on the field 

 

Other odd/uncommon rules that are broken can be blamed on coaching because the players should be taught and know the rules.  A good example of this is like when there is a kickoff and the returner fields it on purpose while having one foot out of bounds.  I think a lot of NFL players don't realize it's a penalty on the kicking team and you get the ball at the 40.  Usually players know that rule because of a coach telling them that along the way.

 

Anyway, count me in the camp of blaming players for their own mistakes and not blaming the coaches.

[Zguy28]

Lot of work. 

 

I think the caveat on the player vs. coach role comes down to the power of the bench. A player is responsible for most penalties, a coach can try to groom it out of him, but if the player keeps fouling and the coach doesn't sit him then eventually the blame shifts to the coach. At some point, the coach has to reach the player or remove him esp. if it is a chronic problem.

 

If you have a Brandon Merriweather who just can't stop spearing and he's killing your team with penalties every day... then you need to get through to him. Even if he's the best safety on your team, you sit him. If you don't he figures that ultimately he can keep getting away with it and what he's doing is right or the team approves of him doing it that way.

We used to make youth players run extra or do "up and downs" to the whistle if they got penalties. Negative reinforcement.

 

So I see a shared responsibility. Discipline is instilled by the coaching, execution is done by the players.

[skins island connection]

 For the most part, the rules from high school through college through the NFL are the same, except the penalty differs.

 

 There's a lot going on at the line that fans don't hear; yelling, cursing, swearing, and other things I'd rather not mention, and depending on how intense the player is focused on the play, can be the difference maker in him committing a foul. We hear of players yelling and simulating the snap count, and it can have a negative effect on a teammate.

 

 A coach has the duty of getting the players mentally and physically ready for the game; informing players the opposing QB likes to head bob or hard count, or formation patterns to recognize, but its up to the player to discipline himself, to not be thrown off, but even the best do.

 

 Its one reason why division rival games are so important, because a lot is known about each other's team, and it boils down to the physical aspect of it.

Of course, bonuses play a part as well; a player getting a bonus for getting certain number of sacks, or not allowing a QB sack, etc, and then money shows its ugly face in fouls.

 

Frankly, I get corn-fused at certain offsetting penalties and how they go one way then the following week they go a different way, so I just pop a top and say **** it...

[Burgold]

Interesting note about the most penalized//successful teams. Makes me wonder if the winning teams teach players to commit certain penalties or turn a blind eye to them. It also makes me wonder if that's just one more symptom of an over flagged nfl.

[Jumbo]

Great OP and IMO shouldn't be much of a brain teaser. Most of the time (almost all the time) it's going to be a player gaffe. Coaches---unit coach to coordinator to HC in sequence, and the positional coach should be getting the first blast of accountability after the player---have the old bottom-line thing of being accountable for everything "in the end", and sure better know the basics and then some, but it's mostly going to be the player.

 

Then it can become a matter of whether or not a regularly offending player has a redeeming enough positive offset. This would include sub's observations, which absorbs those guys who are high-productivity and play aggressive or "fiery" (maybe vocal, too ) a lot of the time and thus get more flags via their type of play, even as you continuously try to "coach him out of it."

 

I.E.--for years we have had weak and heavily penalized special teams mainly (in my analysis) because of the quality level of the players, but it was popular to "hang it all" on Dammy Smith because the "evidence was overviewing, year after year."

 

Smith was accountable to that real degree that does exists, and far from perfect, but much of our issues (that "evidence") there were reflecting the long term lower grade quality of our personnel acquisitions under the various brain trusts deciding such things, who often sucked hugely.

 

It's been a long time since we as an org have shown even an average propensity for selecting and properly developing young talent overall and establishing quality depth, which is what's usually reflected on the better ST units in the league. What we put on the field under ST has generally sucked personnel-wise for a decade (not wanting to go OT on ST, just using situation to example).

 

 

But as with most things, who puts what accountability where and to what degree in their posts will often and largely depend on already established biases (mostly emotionally based) and axes to grind.

 

 

I'd bet many here will know how those things are going to go (and which regular posters will be doing what) as the games get played, and who here is going to be raging most against whom. The biggest targets for accountability will be Kirk & Jay of course, and those often demanding such the hardest will likely be guys who fell all over themselves for three years deflecting accountability from their guy. 

[Wildbunny]

The Sub brings the debate to a pont a just touched and didn't go as far as him.

 

It brings up once again the fact that penalties sometimes are a good thing to have regarding the circumstances. And Iw ould think that the better teams knows when to make a penalty to stop momentum for the opposing team or get an upside. I would completly expect someone like Sean Payton or Gregg Williams to accept a Roughing the Passer on a QB that is known for mental self destruct early in the game to shut him down for the remaining of the game.

 

Regarding Jumbo's position, I would say I would blame bad coaching if the whole unit is committing dumbass penatlies. If it's just a guy on a whole unit, then it's mostly the player that can't get coaching or lacks talent than a real coaching problem.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Interesting to read the differing views and perspectives on a no right or wrong question. 

 

Hail. 

[velocet]

The Raiders were the most penalized team all the time (this is going back some) and proud of it as it was something of a team culture thing.  Meant to enhance their 'hide the wimmin' & children'  image.   When they were good it didn't hurt 'em too much and blame for that went to the owner. 

 

I'd like to thank Wildbunny for getting me to realize something about penalties.   And that is, when your team is 7 wins in two years bad, penalties are as background noise among so many other things.   Like from last year I don't remember a single penalty but the the visual of Colts receivers proceeding unimpeded through our secondary, who seemed to be mere usher escorts in that game,  is seared into memory.   

 

Great thread Wildbunny.  Penalties are extremely important.  For now though, they don't really affect the bottom line of our competitive strength until things show signs of improvement, as I see it.  

 

 

 

 

velocet

[Jumbo]

<edit>

Regarding Jumbo's position, I would say I would blame bad coaching if the whole unit is committing dumbass penatlies.<edit>

 

 

I certainly can see where that could be and has been the case in various teams over the years, inc. ours--but I think it's more the exception. I think that is like a "common sense" assumption that often doesn't necessarily bear close scrutiny. A coach would have to just be "bad" at the job to be responsible for such widespread issues, and I think some are, but very few. I think most coaches fit into an "average nfl-level quality" distribution and then you have small groups (awful/excellent) at the extremes. I think it's more likely that if you have various penalties occurring all over the unit (let alone on the size of ST per my example), it really is more likely to be a problem of talent and maybe overall state (even beyond but inc. talent acquisition/coaching) of the organizational culture. But it's nothing I'd argue too hard over as a generality. The specific team context/situation is what matters most.

[Wildbunny]

Looks like we're gonna have a lots to talk after what? 12 penalties.

 

I've noticed one or two penalties that were tough calls:

- Chris Baker for Roughing the passer. He was being pushed down by some OL and landed on Tannenhill. There was nothing he could do on that and that drive led to MIA's only TD on O.

- Jordan Reed for Offensive Pass Interference as the D was nowhere close to make a play on Garcon. He wouldn't have prevented the catch. Also, there was one huge facemask by Suh on that play that wasn't flagged and penalties should have offset themselves.

 

Other than that:

- One Defensive Pass Interference on Robinson. You're not allowed to touch a receiver ever. But mostly, there wasn't much on it. (led to the FG)

- Four Offensive Holdings. Moses (declined), Carrier, Reed and NSheke. Callahan will have some huge work.

- One Personal Foul against Moses. I'm being told than the Miami guy is now hitchhiking in Buffalo to came back. I'll put it on Moses, but I believe he had an affair with the guy wand wanted to teach him a lesson. I can live with that.

- One Illegal Formation (declined).

- Two False Start on Trent Williams and Moses.

- One Offensive Pass Interference on Garcon. Didn't saw it, so I'm not comment it right now.

- One Illegal Use of Hands on Culliver. Deserved and on our CB, definately. 

- One Delay of Game. Clearly, the trick here, on 3 and 4 to go was to try to commit a Miami's D penalty to get 5 yards. But they didn't move and we got charged for Delay of Game. Miami was being hot at this point, and I suspect that Gruden wanted to test them more. He send Kirk with no play to fake it and lure the D into another costly penalty. Still that backfired on us as we made 2 other penalties following it. That was the turning point of the game to me as we seemed to lose the mental battle here and never made it back.

 

Obviously, Moses has been flagged three times and will need to cut on this heavily. Only 3 flags on D, one was really tough. Others are correctable. Pretty nice from them as a whole. Other point of interest is that Scherff wasn't flag at all facing Suh. Nice from the rookie as well.

[Warhead36]

The only penalty that is 100% on the coach is delay of game. Get that play in quicker!

 

After that, I think its more of a player issue. Bad players will obviously get penalized more, because they're not as good and are going to be in positions where they have to commit penalties to keep up. Some players are just more aggressive(if not reckless)which means the are more penalty prone(this only applies to some positions obviously).

 

I mean, what's Gruden supposed to do when both Reed and Garcon pick up O PIs? How often does that happen to ANY team?

 

Yeah you can "preach discipline" and all that, but I think that's a bit overblown. You can only yell and scream so much. This is professional football.

[Wildbunny]

The only penalty that is 100% on the coach is delay of game. Get that play in quicker!

 

 

My guess is he was trying to draw a penalty. I'm not even sure Cousins at a play ready for it. He was told: "Just fake it, they'll make a penalty". And it didn't work.

But yeah, 100% Jay Gruden here.

[NoCalMike]

I will say that it is frustrating that as good as Trent is, he is usually good for 1-2 holds and/or false starts every game.

[Vanguard]

Trent Murphy is one of the worst picks we've ever made.  The guy is below mediocre.  Get him out!