The RG3 trade really really hurt...

[DJD2]

The fallacy with the OP is thinking that whoever the FO drafted (had they not made the trade and kept the picks) would have been impact players. I have my doubts.

 

It's pointless to argue about the sunk costs. They is what they is.

[Hail4Life]

Uhh yeah, because with those 4 picks the Rams have built a championship team for years to come.

[Hail Gibbs]

Agree with all the points made in the OP, but especially agree with this.   

 

Oh please.  Not having a GM who builds a team is what hurts.

 

Considering all we gave up for RG3 I wish we could've traded up 1 more spot to land Luck. Although not sure how much success he would have with the gaping holes in our roster and continual mismanagement. 

[nemocystem]

Dunno...I would feel much worse about the trade (& I really ain't sweating it) were the Rams not a much more horrific abomination at this point. By all rights we would be just as bad, if not worse with all the Brian Orakpo, Rod Gardner, & Laron Landry clones we undoubtedly would have drafted.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Uhh yeah, because with those 4 picks the Rams have built a championship team for years to come.

You guys seriously don't see the logical fallacies when you post stuff like this?

[Heathen]

- RGIII is the most talented QB prospect I've ever seen.

 

 Regardless, we DID get a franchise QB prospect worth building around in RGIII. One that was so good he immediately established himself as a star-level talent as a rookie. There couldn't have been a clearer sign for a franchise saying "BUILD AROUND ME!" than the one blinking around RGIII.

RGIII is good enough that you still salvage a plan to build around him by hiring the right guy to be the next head coach. Someone who you plan on being the HC here for 10+ years.

Very, VERY good post. Absolutely spot on.

[Hail4Life]

I know it isn't logical...but it makes me feel better about the RG3/draft picks trade.

[theTruthTeller]

People keep trying to make this an RG3 thread.  I love RG3, and I'm grateful he's on the team.  But I don't think any player in NFL history is worth parting with 3 #1s (and high #1s in this case) and a high #2.  It's not about drafting RG3; it's about building a TEAM.

 

Every team gets the same amount of money to use on player salaries (averaged over time), and the same amount of draft picks.  Teams that overspend on acquisition (trades, draft choices) or on salaries (free agents, re-signings) are bound to be in the same position as the Skins - no depth, holes in starting lineup.

 

The new CBA greatly increased the value of draft choices.  Every rookie is slotted by draft position with almost no variation allowed for a four year contract.  For #1s, there is an extension available, although at a pretty high cost.  So with a draft choice, you get four years of cut rate salary.  If you use four high draft choices to acquire one player, then you get the benefit of the rookie contract for one player.  If you are savvy and can trade down, you may get additional players on their rookie contracts.

 

Yes, I know that drafting well plays a part in this.  It does not help to have players on the rookie contract if they suck.  Every team misses and hits on draft choices.  That doesn't excuse you from using both the draft, free agency, re-signing and franchise tags wisely to build a team.  But at least two of the #1s would have allowed Gruden/Allen/Shanahan (GAS) to draft the top ranked player at a position of need (RT, OG, C, DB, LB) in 2012 and 2014 (and likely in 2013, without RG3).  Even if you just followed consensus advice on the best player at a position, you'd probably do pretty well.

 

The trade with St. L wasn't wise, regardless of what St. L did with the picks afterward.  RG3 was picked to replace Grossman with his arm and four scrub OL with his legs.  And he was able to for a year.  He may be able to in the future, but I don't think it will be with this team.  I know if I were him, and knowing that the Skins had done nothing to shore up the OL in three years other than hoping I could outrun the other teams DL, I'd find a new home.

 

The $30M cap room was also not used wisely.  Signing DJ was a mistake after already acquiring Roberts.  It's not that his salary is out of whack - it's pretty good really.  But that money should have been used other places - it was buying a new set of China when you can't afford food.  Worse, DJ's abilities are used poorly - he's a deep ball threat and great punt returner.  There is no point in using him in 1 and 2 yard pass patterns.  Its just a matter of time, like two more games against defenses that are really good, before he blows up about being misused.

 

Despite the injury, the Hall re-signing was a good one.  The team really missed him last night, not that it would have made a difference.  The next two weeks will be ugly.  There is not a single person in the backfield capable of covering a decent wide receiver.  Amerson is probably the best - he's usually in the same zip code - but Breeland and Merrifield are jokes in coverage.  And Clark's days of covering a wide receiver are behind him.

 

Hatcher is looking good relative to the rest of the DL, but the truth is that his only good year in Dallas was after they changed from a 3-4 to a 4-3.  And he's pretty old.  I'd expect him to have nagging injuries for the rest of the year.  Especially if the D overall looks pathetic.  At this point, it really doesn't mean a whole lot about how good the DL and OLBs are, the secondary is going to get sliced and diced no matter whether they play soft or play  man coverage.  And a single injury would make a bad secondary catastrophic.

 

I was for re-signing Orakpo, and for franchising him if they couldn't reach an agreement.  But if the Skins had a #1 draft choice in 2003, there were a lot of options for a 3-4 OLB.  But they didn't, so the Skins had no bargaining position and 10 or their $30M largess went out the door on one player.

 

What's done is done and can't be undone, so hopefully someone in power has learned a lesson.  They may be in position to trade down to multiple high picks in 2015, so with a #1 and two #2s, they can shore up some of the problems starting with OL.  The more critical decision will be what to do with RG3s extension option.  A decision needs to be made before May 3 of next year.  Its not an easy decision by any means.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Everything spot on

[NickyJ]

The day that SOMEONE on the team realizes that 3rd round-and-beyond offensive linemen aren't going to magically be awesome will be the day that our team actually makes some sort of progress. LeRibeus, Gettis, Hurt, Willie Smith, Compton, Moses, Long, Erik Cook, Selvish Capers, Chad ****ing Rinehart. Those are the names of the players that we've rolled through since 2008.

 

Moses and Long haven't had time to develop, so I'll give those two a pass. Say what you want, but Compton being a starter is a pipe-dream. He's been talked up since he first got here, and regardless of circumstances, he's done nothing. You can pin it on coaches, but he's got put himself on the map. The fact that he hasn't gotten any meaningful time makes me doubt that he has.

 

Granted, every 5 years or so, a team strikes gold and finds a star that fell from heaven down the draft board to the late rounds, but to bank on it like we do is stupid. It's left us with **** like Lich, Chester, Luavo, and Polombus.

[Pedro]

This is not a bash Griffin thread.

 

It absolutely is a bash Griffin thread.  We've spent CAP and picks enough to produce a good OL.  Not hitting on the selections we made are why we have a poor OL, regardless of QB.  Our DC is why our DBs look so bad.  Disregarding STs for years until this year is why they are needing to continue the upward curve too.

 

We've been drafting/trading QBs for a long time with nothing to show for it win wise, except 2012.  Thankfully we still have over 10 years of Griffin here to do what he was brought in for: turn this cluster**** of an organisation around.

[GARY_CLARK84]

So winning ONE division title is worth it? I completely disagree with that. At one time that was the norm around here. Also during that playoff run while Griffin was hobbling around on a bad leg, Haslett had his BEST stuff. He was blitzing, mixing things up. He looked like a real NFL DC.

I'm not a fan of Haz, but what strengths are you talking about? It's obvious no one can consistently rush the passer on this team and that hurts the pass coverage. Breeland is a rookie and struggled, the safeties are awful in coverage, Riley can't cover a turtle, to me it's a lack of talent and some questionable coaching. You being Greg Williams in here, it's still a bad defense.

No i'm not saying winning one division title only is worth it, but come one let's be honest....that buzz around the team and his play was just out of this world. I was at RG3's first game in New Orleans and he was looking like the next coming of football jesus...lol.    But in all seriousness that was the norm for the Skins in the 80's and early 90s to win divisions and play deep in playoffs!!  That was 30 years ago my friend, the fact remains is the fan base was calling for us to get a franchise QB, the McNabb trade was the killer and one that blew up in the front office face. The strengths are Rak and Kerrigan, they are book end OLB in today's league, how about line them up on the same side for crying out loud, how about stunts?, there is a thing called delayed blitzing,  how about drop 8 in coverage for once in your life Haz, every blitz Haz calls is a jail break blitz, 

 

You shouldn't be a fan of Haz, do you remember the classic drive RG3 lead the Skins on to take the lead on eventual superbowl champs NY giants in New York?  Just to let the giants score with around 1:30 on clock with a busted play to Cruz. How about Mike Vick and Deshawn Jackson putting on a show few years back on MNF.....Vick had a career game and night!  I could go on and on about how horrible Haz has been. So why do you place blame on RG3 or the trade?  RG3 brought this franchise back from the dead and we should be supporting him to come back strong and not bashing him. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It's been obvious from the beginning that the RGIII would be a cataclysm if he didn't turn out to be an All Pro QB. When we thought he was going to be one of the three best QBs in the league for a decade, the trade was worth it.

 

Now, it has the chance to kill this franchise for five years.

 

But that risk was always built into the decision.

[Alexa]

Gary Clark...who cares about "buzz?" When the winning streak was happening in 2012 Griffin wasn't breaking 200 yards. That was two years ago also. it's time to look at the now. And that means he's not on the field so he's not doing the organization any good. He needs to get healthy and then we can talk about him. Until then, it's Kirk's time. One terrible game, he wasn't the only one that stunk last night. It was the entire team. Time to move on.

 

I'm not blaming Griffin for the trade. Again, I'm a fan, although I think the first year went to his head lol. I'm blaming the stupid front office for OVERPAYING for him. That's not his fault, that's on Bruce, Synder and Red Lobster. Again, 4 high draft picks for a guy who was in a spread offense is dumb. Just my opinion. Hopefully Griffin one day can prove me wrong!

[Going Commando]

The day that SOMEONE on the team realizes that 3rd round-and-beyond offensive linemen aren't going to magically be awesome will be the day that our team actually makes some sort of progress. LeRibeus, Gettis, Hurt, Willie Smith, Compton, Moses, Long, Erik Cook, Selvish Capers, Chad ****ing Rinehart. Those are the names of the players that we've rolled through since 2008.

 

Moses and Long haven't had time to develop, so I'll give those two a pass. Say what you want, but Compton being a starter is a pipe-dream. He's been talked up since he first got here, and regardless of circumstances, he's done nothing. You can pin it on coaches, but he's got put himself on the map. The fact that he hasn't gotten any meaningful time makes me doubt that he has.

 

Granted, every 5 years or so, a team strikes gold and finds a star that fell from heaven down the draft board to the late rounds, but to bank on it like we do is stupid. It's left us with **** like Lich, Chester, Luavo, and Polombus.

It ain't easy, but you can find day one starters on the offensive line outside the first two rounds. Especially interior guys. The problem for us is we haven't been drafting the position well. The guys we get... a lot of times they just weren't anything special in college. There is a reason why the draftniks thought so many of our OL picks were reaches. Most have ended up representing poor value.

One thing about the constant cycle that is roster management and construction: the replacement level player you draft to fill in a hole with a body is the player you're looking to upgrade starting next offseason. Ho hum guys like almost everyone we drafted in that 2011 class end up just cycling through. The only time you stop searching for that upgrade is when you end up with someone who is so good that they're a difference maker and you say, "we're not going to get someone better, nor do we need to." Talent like Trent Williams, RGIII, Ryan Kerrigan, and Brian Orakpo for instance. These are your studs who define the identity of your whole roster and, as such, should serve as your leaders.

But you can put off the imperative for finding upgrades by getting people who are at least good, above-replacement-level starters. Perry Riley, Barry Cofield, Keenan Robinson, Pierre Garcon, Alfred Morris, Darrel Young, even Jason Hatcher. You need a lot of these kinds of guys to get a stable roster. Nobody is in a rush to upgrade any of them. They're all good enough to be productive starters on a good team.

One of our big problems is that we aren't getting enough of guys like that outside FA. Not enough of our draft picks have been emerging from that constant cycling of talent to become mainstays. Free agent acquisitions are older and more expensive. You're really only expecting four years or so of high quality play from a FA. Nail a draft pick and you're on the boat early and you might get 7+ years of high quality play, a lot of that for cheap, and then you're in business.

Another interesting phenomena is how the effects of a draft, good or bad, are usually delayed for about three to four seasons. Crush a draft or two in a row and you might have a 12+ win team on your hands in about three years. Bomb a draft and you'll fall behind and have your talent degraded in about the same time frame. I think right now we are paying for bad drafts in 2010 and 2011 where we missed a lot of opportunities. And the cap penalty didn't help. I think our 2012 and 2013 classes were good, and that plus good success in FA are one of the only reasons the wheels haven't totally fallen off. We found several early quality starters and guys who look like mainstays. But if those guys don't end up working out, we're going to be awful for years because the full effect of those classes won't show up until next year and the year after.

You can gauge the long term health of a franchise largely by looking at how impressive their draft classes are. Bruce Allen is going to have to start drafting better, and being much more consistent about finding value with his picks and not reaching.

[Alexa]

Personally, I think we should have kept Jason Campbell, let him keep growing in Al Saunders offense and kept all the draft picks. We'd be MUCH better off!!!!

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It ain't easy, but you can find day one starters on the offensive line outside the first two rounds. Especially interior guys. The problem for us is we haven't been drafting the position well. The guys we get... a lot of times they just weren't anything special in college. There is a reason why the draftniks thought so many of our OL picks were reaches. Most have ended up representing poor value.

One thing about the constant cycle that is roster management and construction: the replacement level player you draft to fill in a hole with a body is the player you're looking to upgrade starting next offseason. Ho hum guys like almost everyone we drafted in that 2011 class end up just cycling through. The only time you stop searching for that upgrade is when you end up with someone who is so good that they're a difference maker and you say, "we're not going to get someone better, nor do we need to." Talent like Trent Williams, RGIII, Ryan Kerrigan, and Brian Orakpo for instance. These are your studs who define the identity of your whole roster and, as such, should serve as your leaders.

But you can put off the imperative for finding upgrades by getting people who are at least good, above-replacement-level starters. Perry Riley, Barry Cofield, Keenan Robinson, Pierre Garcon, Alfred Morris, Darrel Young, even Jason Hatcher. You need a lot of these kinds of guys to get a stable roster. Nobody is in a rush to upgrade any of them. They're all good enough to be productive starters on a good team.

 

 

 

The Steelers were a Super Bowl competitor for 17 years or so because they worked the draft perfectly. They seemingly always had young replacements to their mid-level stars readily available. And sometimes those replacments where better. Harrison was better than Porter who was better than Gildon.

 

They've run into trouble, because - in a way - that got too good and kept their mid-level stars too long because:

 

1. They were trying to make another run and

2. The drafts weren't good enough

 

They may have righted the ship, but you are correct that you pay for a bad draft three or four years later. Have two or three bad drafts in a row, and that payment multiplies.

 

Our issue has been that we get our good middle class players in free agency, which automatically means we pay too much which throws everything off. And then we don't draft well in the lower rounds.

 

Everyone remembers Chris Horton. Teams that win Super Bowl get the kind of play we got from Chris Horton for six or seven years. We got it for six and seven games and still remember it, because that NEVER happens here.

 

We get our stars in the first round and free agency, and everyone else is just a guy filling a roster spot.

[theTruthTeller]

It absolutely is a bash Griffin thread.

Only because people are ignoring the intent of the OP.

 

Griffin didn't ask for someone to trade three high picks to move up four places in the draft.  He takes the place of four high draft choices, but he's on the rookie pay scale for one draft choice.  I'm sure he wishes that the Skins had the picks to shore up the line.

 

Every team needs to manage its resources.  Using four high picks to get one player hurts.  But so does paying big bonuses to a player, then acquiring another to take away his starting position.

 

Here's what Dallas pays it's entire receiving corp (using approximated average salaries paid over the contract):

Dez Bryant $2.2M

Terrance Williams $700K

Cole Beasly $600K (2014 salary)

Dwayne Harris $650K

Devin Street $600K

 

Total 2014 expenses for complete WR roster: $4.8M

 

Skins WR

Pierre Garcon $8M

DeSean Jackson $8M

Andre Roberts $4M

Santana Moss $1M

Ryan Grant $600K

Aldrick Robinson $600

(I won't bother to count Hankerson, although he is still getting paid)

 

Total 2014 for complete WR roster not including Hankerson:$22.2M

 

I'm sorry, while I picked this out to be an extreme disparity (all of the WRs on Dallas are in their rookie contracts), this is still a problem.  Tying up $22M in WRs while not spending donuts on the OL is just plain stupid.  What good is a franchise QB and a deep threat WR when your OL is a sieve?

[Prototype]

I don't know if im going to get banned for this post, but I'm reading through this thread and that Alexa person is a ****ing moron

[Airyx]

First thing firsts, spare the KC talk. Clearly he has not outgrown the Rex gene. This isn't an RG3/Kirk thread. It's a team thread.

 

Secondary depth = nightmare

 

O-Line depth = nightmare

 

Linebackers = hot and cold.

 

There is no team anywhere in the league that has depth at secondary. The RG3 trade has nothing to do with it.

 

There is no team anywhere in the league that has depth at the O-Line...and actually, the 'skins have good depth. With Moses, Leribus, and Long all developing at a good pace.

 

The LBs are fine.

 

Again there is no team that can absorb these kinds of injury losses and still compete, especially when your QB turns the ball over four times.

 

Anyway, the RG3 trade hasn't hurt a single thing. I so no impact whatsoever...other than a division title.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

No team has depth??

Ok bud.

[Pedro]

I thought Compton and Leribus on the left side looked better than Chester and Polumbus on the right....

[Airyx]

 

Cowboys: Total 2014 expenses for complete WR roster: $4.8M

 

Skins WR Total 2014 for complete WR roster not including Hankerson:$22.2M

 

I'm sorry, while I picked this out to be an extreme disparity (all of the WRs on Dallas are in their rookie contracts), this is still a problem.  Tying up $22M in WRs while not spending donuts on the OL is just plain stupid.  What good is a franchise QB and a deep threat WR when your OL is a sieve?

 

Your comparison is nice, but...

 

Throw in the QB and RB contracts and its no wonder the Cowboys fans scream and yell about how bad the o-line is...wait what? I spend time in every city in the NFL, and I have yet to find a fan base that thinks their team has a good o-line.

 

Seriously though, the Cowboys are the most poorly managed team in the NFL. Their salary consumption as compared to their talent level is way out of balance. The Redskins, however, have a good set of young talent that will continue to develop.

[theTruthTeller]

There is no team anywhere in the league that has depth at secondary. The RG3 trade has nothing to do with it.

 

There is no team anywhere in the league that has depth at the O-Line...and actually, the 'skins have good depth. With Moses, Leribus, and Long all developing at a good pace.

 

The LBs are fine.

 

Again there is no team that can absorb these kinds of injury losses and still compete, especially when your QB turns the ball over four times.

 

Anyway, the RG3 trade hasn't hurt a single thing. I so no impact whatsoever...other than a division title.

I'm hoping this is a joke.

 

Perhaps you didn't notice that by the end of the game Philly had lost all of its OL starters last week and held up pretty well against one of the Skins better units.

 

LeRibeus, Long and Moses are developing at a good pace?  I'm interested about when LeRib will be fully developed.  He played some last night and, to be honest, they would have been better off putting his jersey and helmet on a water cooler and placing that on the line.

[theTruthTeller]

Your comparison is nice, but...

 

Throw in the QB and RB contracts and its no wonder the Cowboys fans scream and yell about how bad the o-line is...wait what? I spend time in every city in the NFL, and I have yet to find a fan base that thinks their team has a good o-line.

 

Seriously though, the Cowboys are the most poorly managed team in the NFL. Their salary consumption as compared to their talent level is way out of balance. The Redskins, however, have a good set of young talent that will continue to develop.

I definitely chose an example where an all rookie contract was compared to a mostly veteran unit.  I said so in the post.  The point is that sometimes you need to pass on a good deal.  Spending $8M on DJ, even if its a steal, was a bad idea if he can't be used effectively.

 

The Cowboys are far from the most poorly managed team (maybe you didn't see the Jacksonville game), nor is their salary consumption way out of whack with their talent level.  They have a really bad DL, below average safeties and an overpaid CB.  But they have a good, young OL, good receivers, good ST, and improving LBs.  Their talent level is at least average, which accounts for all of the 8-8 seasons.  This year they have moved from being one of the oldest teams to one of the youngest teams.