Is it time to start evaluating the Scouting Dept? (what should we do going forward?)

Yes we're at a cross roads with Shanny at the midway point of his 5 year contract. As i've said multiple times in various threads "I'm no longer an unconditional supporter of Mike". We've also agreed that Haslett is over his head as a DC, which makes his release all but a formality at this point. Its not a matter of "if", but "when" regarding his status. Kyle's status is also in the air, in that we are closing on the end of his 3 year contract. And the insiders have speculated that his desire to return is uncertain.

-But lets forget all of that for a second. What about the Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown? Is it time to look at this department a bit more closely? Can we say with certainty that we've done a great job in aquiring talent? Sure the roster, today, is better than it was in 2009. However, IMO we still lack top end talent (i.e. playmakers). I'm not saying that they should definitely be let go and that we should clean house. But I do see this as a possiblity among those who propose a HC change. At this point we could confidently say that possibly Garcon, RG3, Morris, Trent, Orakpo, and Kerrigan are 1st and/or 2nd teir players.. But then what can we say about the remainder of the roster? The way i see it, we're stuck with a bunch of average, depth players... At what point do we hold them accountable, if at all?

I made a reference to questioning the scouting team awhile back, mostly out of curiousity as to why the receivers we end up with are average size at best. Tall shifty receivers are not easy to come by, but I can't remember the last time we had one.

Look around the league, and there are plenty of them on other teams, just not on the Redskins squad. Why? It would be nice to have at least 1 over 6'2 who can and is willing to go up after the ball at its highest point, rather than waitingh for the ball to drop into their hands; as if they could catch it to begin with might be a bigger question...

However, IMO we still lack top end talent (i.e. playmakers). I'm not saying that they should definitely be let go and that we should clean house. But I don't see this as a possiblity among those who propose a HC change. At this point we could confidently say that possibly Garcon, RG3, Morris, Trent, Orakpo, and Kerrigan are 1st and/or 2nd teir players.. But then what can we say about the remainder of the roster? The way i see it, we're stuck with a bunch of average, depth players

I would say that out of those guys you mentioned, the only ones who seem to be on track to become 1st tier players at their positions are Trent and RG3.

The others, however, seem to be destined to remain in the 2nd tier. When especially looking at our two best pass rushers, I don't see guys who have the potential to take over a game. While Campbell and Brown have been solid, I don't see us unearthing gems the way other teams have done so. Even the UDFA 'gems' we have found (like Logan, Lorenzo, Banks and Armstrong) are depth players at best. When's the last time we managed to find a guy like a Victor Cruz, Miles Austin, Tramon Williams as an UDFA? When's the last time we took one team's garbage player off the trash heap, and turned him into an absolute gem for our team?

While we have some promising players, I want to see better results. We need starters to come out of rounds besides 1-4. So to answer your question, yes I think it's absolutely time to take a look at the scouting department. By all accounts, Shanahan has been really listening to them and taking their advice heavily into his consideration.

Are any of those guys holdovers from Vinny's era? I think it's beyond insane that 3/16 players selected by us in the 08/09 draft are still on a NFL roster...not just w/ the Skins, but on an NFL roster. Think about it. That's mind-blowing and a HUGE problem as far as scouting is concerned.

I think we've done okay in getting some young talent, but it takes a while to build a pipeline. You gotta commit to the draft year after year after year after year, etc.

I question this scouting department's ability to close in on true 3-4 personnel. Everyone on the front seven has played in the 4-3 in the NFL or in college. You look at team's like NE, Pitt, and Balt. who run the 3-4 and they are drafting players who played in the 3-4 in college. The Redskins aren't doing that.

I think we've done okay in getting some young talent, but it takes a while to build a pipeline. You gotta commit to the draft year after year after year after year, etc.

see, thats my problem we seem to have nothing but "okay" players. Now, we must also keep in mind (especially regarding the defense) that they aren't always being put in the best position to succeed. But at the sametime, when you consider that year in and year out, we're often out matched and out muscled, can't tackle can't run.... it seems to me that the constant lack of playmaking talent is a reflection of whats going on upstairs.

---------- Post added November-13th-2012 at 03:33 PM ----------

I question this scouting department's ability to close in on true 3-4 personnel..

Yes, starting with Cofield.

see, thats my problem we seem to have nothing but "okay" players. Now, we must also keep in mind (especially regarding the defense) that they aren't always being put in the best position to succeed. But at the sametime, when you consider that year in and year out, we're often out matched and out muscled, can't tackle can't run.... it seems to me that the constant lack of playmaking talent is a reflection of whats going on upstairs.

---------- Post added November-13th-2012 at 03:33 PM ----------

Yes, starting with Cofield.

Not so. Barry Cofield played NT at Northwestern but was drafted by the NY Midgets as a DT in a 4-3 scheme. Brian Orakpo and Ryan Kerrigan are natural defensive ends playing OLBs. They are able to play OLB in the 3-4 because of their athletic ability and their level of awareness. Perry Riley and Keenan Robinson also 4-3 middle LBs. Jarvis Jenkins played in a 4-3 defense as a DT at Clemson and Adam Carriker was a DT with the Rams. With the exception of Cofield, the Redskins have no natural 3-4 personnel.

Not so. Barry Cofield played NT at Northwestern but was drafted by the NY Midgets as a DT in a 4-3 scheme. Brian Orakpo and Ryan Kerrigan are natural defensive ends playing OLBs. They are able to play OLB in the 3-4 because of their athletic ability and their level of awareness. Perry Riley and Keenan Robinson also 4-3 middle LBs. Jarvis Jenkins played in a 4-3 defense as a DT at Clemson and Adam Carriker was a DT with the Rams. With the exception of Cofield, the Redskins have no natural 3-4 personnel.

Well most rookie OLBs in the NFL were natural DEs in college. Regarding Cofield, we would have to agree to disagree, but Cofield has been MUCH more effective in the 4-3. He doesn't have the frame, nor the strength to hold the fort as a NT in the 3-4. He's often beat one-on-one, which isn't supposed to occur in a successful 3-4. I would prefer we start Baker and move Cofield to DE, temporarily, until we can address that position for real.

I question this scouting department's ability to close in on true 3-4 personnel. Everyone on the front seven has played in the 4-3 in the NFL or in college. You look at team's like NE, Pitt, and Balt. who run the 3-4 and they are drafting players who played in the 3-4 in college. The Redskins aren't doing that.

That's not true at all. Woodley and Suggs were 4-3 ends in college and Ngata, McPhee, Hood, Hampton, and Keisel were 4-3 tackles.

The Patriots are hardly a base 3-4 team these days but in their prime as a 3-4 unit they had a bunch of players who played the 4-3 in college. Seymour was a 4-3 DT, Wilfork was a 4-3 DT, Warren was a 4-3 DT/DE, McGinest was a 4-3 DE, Colvin was a 4-3 LB/DE, and both Bruschi and Vrabel were 4-3 DEs despite being moved to ILB in Belichick's 3-4.

Are any of those guys holdovers from Vinny's era? I think it's beyond insane that 3/16 players selected by us in the 08/09 draft are still on a NFL roster...not just w/ the Skins, but on an NFL roster. Think about it. That's mind-blowing and a HUGE problem as far as scouting is concerned.

Slightly higher than 3/16, but not by much. Davis, Orakpo, Jackson are still with us, Rinehart and Tryon are on other teams, but only Rinehart looks like he'll last anytime past the next year or two...maybe. Eddie Williams is on IR with the Browns. So 6/16, which is still terrible, and only 2 of them are starter quality.

Pretty sure 08/09 was all Vinny too.

I think we've done okay in getting some young talent, but it takes a while to build a pipeline. You gotta commit to the draft year after year after year after year, etc.

This is the big thing. Like was mentioned by RonArtest15, only a few of the players we drafted in '08/'09 are even still in the NFL, let alone here. Orakpo, Davis, and Jackson are still here, and that's it. Vinny robbed this team of talent with his terrible picking.

I think when we finally started listening to the scouts our picking improved, but that only happened in 2010. We need a few more years of decent picking, and we'll start to see the pace of good players pick up.

As for picking, secondary is the new Oline, in that we should probably throw 2-3 picks at it every draft. I remember how we always needed Oline picks, but never took anyone. We finally have some guys (with the notable exception of RT), but our secondary is pretty bare. That and a true NT, though I think safeties rank a little higher on the needs pyramid.

Well most rookie OLBs in the NFL were natural DEs in college. Regarding Cofield, we would have to agree to disagree, but Cofield has been MUCH more effective in the 4-3. He doesn't have the frame, nor the strength to hold the fort as a NT in the 3-4. He's often beat one-on-one, which isn't supposed to occur in a successful 3-4. I would prefer we start Baker and move Cofield to DE, temporarily, until we can address that position for real.

definitely...I think that is the most underrated part of our issues on the 3-4. I'd love for Baker to get more shots at nose. Cofield is out of position at an NFL Level NT position

From what I've read Shanahan doesn't listen to his scouting department. He will base an opinion on a player from watching his best highlights and believes "I can coach them up to that level all the time." To paraphrase Mikey.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--mike-shanahan-underestimated-depth-of-rebuilding-redskins-05511709.html

Keep in mind I'm posting this article to discuss his scouting techniques. Not on the rebuilding process, that the article touched on. That's a seperate discussion altogher.

see, thats my problem we seem to have nothing but "okay" players. Now, we must also keep in mind (especially regarding the defense) that they aren't always being put in the best position to succeed. But at the sametime, when you consider that year in and year out, we're often out matched and out muscled, can't tackle can't run.... it seems to me that the constant lack of playmaking talent is a reflection of whats going on upstairs.

I think part of it is that some talent needs to time develop. And not in the way that lost cases like Taylor Jacob and Malcom Kelly and Devin Thomas needed to develop (as in they would never develop ever and every other team except ours---read: Vinny---realied they wouldn't).

I mean, Jordy Nelson had three full years in the NFL before he finally exploded in 2011. Eric Decker is about to explode in his third year. Darrius Heyward-Bey was supposed to be the bust of all bust and he had a really solid season in 2011, Victor Cruz was on the bench all season before he came on in 2011. Pierre Garcon had a career year in 2011 with his mess of quarterbacks in year 4.

Look at the receivers taken in the first round of this year's draft. Justin Blackmon and Michael Floyd are both struggling to adapt; both of them are third on their teams depth chart, basically. A.J Jenkins hasn't even seen the field if I can recall. Who would've thought Kendall Wright would be the best looking rookie of the class?

I know I'm going on about receivers but I feel like that applies to other people. It's hard to know whether Richard Crawford is the guy we saw in preseason or not when he's not being put in a position to succeed, when he's even active, it's hard to judge Jarvis Jenkins coming off a knee injury. Perry and Ryan both are trending backwards, but their coach could barely coach defensive backs and now he's trying to coach them.

I feel like we've acquired good talent. Your early round draft picks are always going to be your blue-chippers; that's why they're first round picks. Saying we "only" found high end talent in our first round picks or in the early rounds...well, yeah. That's how most teams do it.

The undrafted free agent gems are harder to come by. If every team could find a Victor Cruz or Miles Austin...well, then they'd draft them in the first round. The idea of undrafted free agent gems is bigger than the actual occurance of them; they are rare.

And the late round picks usually take more time to develop; that's why they're late round picks.

It's hard when you have a team like this that's sucked at acquiring talent for so long it's hard to be patient. But the caliber of talent we've acquired is way better than it used to be.

Since Mike Shanahan's first draft in 2010, the Skins now have five starters out of their drafts. Belichik has added eight in the same period. Bear in mind that he presumably started with a weaker roster and, by rule, seven higher value picks, so it should have been easy for Mike to add more starters than Belichik. (Source: Pro Football Reference, November 2012)

Since Mike Shanahan's first draft in 2010, the Skins now have five starters out of their drafts. Belichik has added eight in the same period. Bear in mind that he presumably started with a weaker roster and higher value picks, so it should have been easy for Mike to add more starters than Belichik. (Source: Pro Football Reference)

If you'd look at the Patriots' drafting strategy the last few years, you'd quickly realize that your presumption is fallacious. They've had 10 picks in the first and second rounds alone since 2010 out of 29 total draft picks. The Redskins have had only 4 picks in the first two rounds over that same span out of 27 total draft picks.

The trades for McNabb and RGIII robbed us of two such picks but ultimately we could never have hoped to match the Patriots in that three year span because they were able to acquire additional high picks by trading back in the 2009 draft and attained a solid mid-first rounder in trading away Richard Seymour. Their average draft position has, as such, been substantially better than ours.

If you'd look at the Patriots' drafting strategy the last few years, you'd quickly realize that your presumption is fallacious. They've had 10 picks in the first and second rounds alone since 2010 out of 29 total draft picks. The Redskins have had only 4 picks in the first two rounds over that same span out of 27 total draft picks.

The trades for McNabb and RGIII robbed us of two such picks but ultimately we could never have hoped to match the Patriots in that three year span because they were able to acquire additional high picks by trading back in the 2009 draft and attained a solid mid-first rounder in trading away Richard Seymour. Their average draft position has, as such, been substantially better than ours.

Each team was, by rule, allowed seven draft picks and the Patriots' picks were lower. That's the presumption.

The draft results of each team are what we are comparing, so it wouldn't make sense to toss out the draft moves.

Both coaches had assets to trade for picks. Belichik got good value for Seymour while Mike got next to nothing for his -- Carter, Haynesworth, one of the two TEs (Cooley, most likely).

I think our scouting and talent acquisition groups need more scrutiny -- they've been fixtures for a long time, and a constant factor in the personnel that make it to the top of the Skins drafting list, under several coaches.

They might be gettting better, but frankly, their long-term track record isn't that great. Perhaps Snyder/Allen need to lure some talent in from Kevin Colbert's group (who heads up the Steeler's player aquisition efforts).

Also, we might want to look at how well Skins coaches are developing the rookies the Skins are bringing in.

You misunderstood my presumption.

Each team was, by rule, allowed seven draft picks and the Patriots' picks were lower. That's the presumption.

The draft strategies of each team are what we are comparing, so it wouldn't make sense to toss out the draft moves.

Both coaches had assets to trade for picks. Belichik got good value for Seymour while Mike got next to nothing for his -- Carter, Haynesworth, one of the two TEs (Cooley, most likely).

I wouldn't call Haynesworth an asset. After his behaviour here, getting anything for him was a bonus, especially considering his total non-production after he left us. Cooley isn't / wasn't an "asset" either; no-one offered him the start he wanted after we released him; there was no queue of teams offering draft picks for his services beforehand. At this stage in his career he's a backup TE - until he proves otherwise.

I think EA's point is entirely valid: the Patriots had ten picks in the first two rounds, you'd expect them to find more starters.

I wouldn't call Haynesworth an asset. After his behaviour here, getting anything for him was a bonus, especially considering his total non-production after he left us. Cooley isn't / wasn't an "asset" either; no-one offered him the start he wanted after we released him; there was no queue of teams offering draft picks for his services beforehand. At this stage in his career he's a backup TE - until he proves otherwise.

I think EA's point is entirely valid: the Patriots had ten picks in the first two rounds, you'd expect them to find more starters.

Belichik had ten picks? What you are arguing is that Mike should be given a pass because Belichik handled the draft better than he did.

Surprisingly, I agree with Oldfan. Mike Shanahan has badly mismanaged the draft (though he's better at picking players, at least at certain positions, and his mismanagement was no worse than that of Gibbs 2.0).

We should have gone into the 2010 draft up 3 picks, not down 2 picks. And this snowballed into other failures (being forced to trade down for Kerrigan instead of taking Quinn/Watt/, not getting value in which turned out to be a VERY strong 2nd and 3rd 2010 3rd round, etc)

Trading for McNabb was an understandable error. It was an error nonetheless. But it stings more because we should have compensated by getting value from our veteran players who no longer fit.l

...Trading for McNabb was an understandable error...

I question this scouting department's ability to close in on true 3-4 personnel. Everyone on the front seven has played in the 4-3 in the NFL or in college. You look at team's like NE, Pitt, and Balt. who run the 3-4 and they are drafting players who played in the 3-4 in college. The Redskins aren't doing that.

See, this is where you are wrong. How many college teams play the 3-4 defense? All the teams you mentioned, drafted players that played the 4-3 in college. Carricker and Cofield played the 3-4 in college. Demarcus Ware? Played in the 4-3 defense at Troy.

Trading for McNabb was not an understandable error, even to this day. The extension McNabb got after getting awkwardly benched for a 2 minute drill, and subsequently demolished by Philly on Monday night mere hours after announcing the extension, was almost unprecedented.

I always thought McNabb helped keep Skins Eagles games close over the years, with his predictable horrid throws into the dirt.

To the OP's point, I think the scouts are merely extensions of Mike. Mike tells them to go find run blocking guards, pass pro be damned, that's what they do. And we get reaches on LeRibs, and a revolving door of depth that is never good enough to push an OL to the sideline. Is it the scouts fault?

I too didn't like his trading down. Perhaps having a stud scout team working for the GM, not the coach, may help. But having a ****ty record leads to good picks, but then parlaying those good picks because you needed to add picks (lost to Nubb and Brown for instance), leads to mediocrity all things equal. He wanted quantity over quality.

He needed to draft a RT, and he didn't. I call bunk if there was no RT available in the 3rd round that can run and pass block. I still don't like the Cousins pick, and then waste a spot on Rex, to compound issue. Maybe he wouldn't need a 3rd string QB if he got an RT/OG that can pass block.

I wonder how much of our scouts time and efforts are focused on projecting mobile OL, and 4-3 guys converted to 3-4 guys.

I think part of it is that some talent needs to time develop. And not in the way that lost cases like Taylor Jacob and Malcom Kelly and Devin Thomas needed to develop (as in they would never develop ever and every other team except ours---read: Vinny---realied they wouldn't).

I mean, Jordy Nelson had three full years in the NFL before he finally exploded in 2011. Eric Decker is about to explode in his third year. Darrius Heyward-Bey was supposed to be the bust of all bust and he had a really solid season in 2011, Victor Cruz was on the bench all season before he came on in 2011. Pierre Garcon had a career year in 2011 with his mess of quarterbacks in year 4.

Look at the receivers taken in the first round of this year's draft. Justin Blackmon and Michael Floyd are both struggling to adapt; both of them are third on their teams depth chart, basically. A.J Jenkins hasn't even seen the field if I can recall. Who would've thought Kendall Wright would be the best looking rookie of the class?

I know I'm going on about receivers but I feel like that applies to other people. It's hard to know whether Richard Crawford is the guy we saw in preseason or not when he's not being put in a position to succeed, when he's even active, it's hard to judge Jarvis Jenkins coming off a knee injury. Perry and Ryan both are trending backwards, but their coach could barely coach defensive backs and now he's trying to coach them.....

Point taken on the lack of patience. But isn't it justified? With the teams that you mentioned, (Indy pre-2011, GB, NYG) they were afforded the luxury of "patience" because they were winning. They had the talent and depth that allowed those players to learn and develop. But then again, look at Indy this year, look at the Bucs this year, look at Seattle. Teams full of 1st and 2nd year players, yet are competing. So i'm not sure i'm buying the "these guys are young and they need time to develop", nah man. Not when there are players and teams around the league that come in and are able to make an immediate impact. But even then, i would be willing to be patient if i felt we were improving, but we're not. Some of it has to do with coaching, others have simply to do with not having the right players. This doesn't only go for drafted players (which have been OK), but FA aquisitions. Sure we're better than we were prior to Shanny (this was mentioned in the OP). However, i think we need to get better..

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 09:08 AM ----------

To the OP's point, I think the scouts are merely extensions of Mike. Mike tells them to go find run blocking guards, pass pro be damned, that's what they do. And we get reaches on LeRibs, and a revolving door of depth that is never good enough to push an OL to the sideline. Is it the scouts fault?

I too didn't like his trading down. Perhaps having a stud scout team working for the GM, not the coach, may help. But having a ****ty record leads to good picks, but then parlaying those good picks because you needed to add picks (lost to Nubb and Brown for instance), leads to mediocrity all things equal. He wanted quantity over quality.

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bruh, right now i'm questioning the entire organizational structure. The way its currently constructed just isn't working IMO, and rarely ever works.