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Is it time to start evaluating the Scouting Dept? (what should we do going forward?)


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I made a reference to questioning the scouting team awhile back, mostly out of curiousity as to why the receivers we end up with are average size at best. Tall shifty receivers are not easy to come by, but I can't remember the last time we had one.

Look around the league, and there are plenty of them on other teams, just not on the Redskins squad. Why? It would be nice to have at least 1 over 6'2 who can and is willing to go up after the ball at its highest point, rather than waitingh for the ball to drop into their hands; as if they could catch it to begin with might be a bigger question...

Very good question. As we traded most of our top draft picks for RG3 ( as I would have), free agency may be our best bet on a big tall WR. It will also be the only way to fix the DB problem at this time. As I said in the past I would sign TO to a one year vet min contract. Then see who is up for grabs in the off season. We could use TO now. I think most of our draft picks in the off season will go toward the O and D lines. We have a lot of good thing going for the team but we are still about two seasons away from our shot at the playoffs. After that we may be there every year for the next five or six years.

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Mike knew, or should have known, that Carter and Haynesworth did not fit the 34. Had they been traded in the offseason (2009), they had value. The same is true for Cooley. A fifth for Carter, a third for Cooley and a third for Haynesworth would have been reasonable at that time.

Belichik had ten picks? What you are arguing is that Mike should be given a pass because Belichik handled the draft better than he did.

OK, in turn:

1) Carter, yes, as he'd already shown he wasn't a fit in the 3-4. However as I recall when we released him it wasn't because we couldn't get picks for him, it was because he was a class guy and to give him a chance at finding a better spot for his talents. But yes, we could have got something for him a year earlier.

2) Haynesworth could have played 3-4 successfully, he was just too selfish to do it. Should Shanahan have realised that immediately? It would have been a tough decision to trade the supposed star player on defense before a snap had been played. It would be even toguher considering the monster contract Haynesworth had landed. What team would trade a high pick for that?

3) Trading Cooley in 2010 would have caused uproar. Hell, look at the meltdown here after he was released after two years of little production. Back then it wasn't as if we were blessed with so much receiving talent that Cooley was surplus to needs.

Belichik had those 10 picks in the first two rounds because of YEARS of smart drafting. How exactly would Shanahan match that, given he had one year to catch up? You think he would get six first and second round picks for Carter, Haynesworth and Cooley? Do you think after either the 2008 or 2009 season there was a single player on the squad that another team would have given us a first round pick for?

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definitely...I think that is the most underrated part of our issues on the 3-4. I'd love for Baker to get more shots at nose. Cofield is out of position at an NFL Level NT position

No, he is not out of position. The problem lies with Orapko not playing. Teams key on Kerrigan. So, its easy to point fingers, when the team is 3-6. This defense had 40 plus sacks last year.

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Very good question. As we traded most of our top draft picks for RG3 ( as I would have), free agency may be our best bet on a big tall WR. It will also be the only way to fix the DB problem at this time. As I said in the past I would sign TO to a one year vet min contract. Then see who is up for grabs in the off season. We could use TO now. I think most of our draft picks in the off season will go toward the O and D lines. We have a lot of good thing going for the team but we are still about two seasons away from our shot at the playoffs. After that we may be there every year for the next five or six years.

The problem with this is that FA aquisitions also fall in the lap of the scouting dept. Morgan and Garcon (minus the injury) were good pick ups in FA.. Hank is teetering on thin ice, and year 3 will likely be make it or break it for him, Robinson hasn't yet reached his potential - that most saw in TC. Moss is about done.. So we certainly need to see whats out there.

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see, thats my problem we seem to have nothing but "okay" players. Now, we must also keep in mind (especially regarding the defense) that they aren't always being put in the best position to succeed. But at the sametime, when you consider that year in and year out, we're often out matched and out muscled, can't tackle can't run.... it seems to me that the constant lack of playmaking talent is a reflection of whats going on upstairs.

I agree. We never seem to have any "league leaders" or game changing players. While Orakpo is our best pass rusher, he's no Jared Allen or Demarcus Ware. Guys that can "blow up" an offense. While Garcon is our best WR, he's no Megatron, Fitz or Roddy White. A guy that can impact the game, week in and week out.

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Very good question. As we traded most of our top draft picks for RG3 ( as I would have), free agency may be our best bet on a big tall WR. It will also be the only way to fix the DB problem at this time. As I said in the past I would sign TO to a one year vet min contract. Then see who is up for grabs in the off season. We could use TO now. I think most of our draft picks in the off season will go toward the O and D lines. We have a lot of good thing going for the team but we are still about two seasons away from our shot at the playoffs. After that we may be there every year for the next five or six years.

The Skins had a shot this year. They give up too many big plays on defense. Secondary is the issue.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 09:21 AM ----------

I agree. We never seem to have any "league leaders" or game changing players. While Orakpo is our best pass rusher, he's no Jared Allen or Demarcus Ware. Guys that can "blow up" an offense. While Garcon is our best WR, he's no Megatron, Fitz or Roddy White. A guy that can impact the game, week in and week out.

Garcon? Well, we don't know that. But we saw what he could do when he was healthy. Ask New Orleans.

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...It would be even toguher considering the monster contract Haynesworth had landed. What team would trade a high pick for that?
Part of the contract could have been eaten. If he was worth a fifth after all the fuss, he was worth a third before it.
3) Trading Cooley in 2010 would have caused uproar...
Who cares? Do you think Belichik lets the fans decide who stays and who goes?
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I authored two threads opposed to the McNabb trade predicting that (1) McNabb wouldn't be much of an upgrade over Campbell; and 2) McNabb was misfit for our scheme or any anyone else's scheme other than the one Reid created for him in Philadelphia. My opinions were unpopular. No matter how often the team is burned by them, Skins fans still love the big name acquisitions.

It's an understandable error because Mike thought he could turn McNabb into Elway. I remember hating it at first, but talking myself into it because I wanted Campbell gone and I thought Mike could indeed, fix McNabb.

To the OP's point, I think the scouts are merely extensions of Mike. Mike tells them to go find run blocking guards, pass pro be damned, that's what they do.

I don't get this criticism; both Chester and Kory are solid pass blocking guards (Kory's problem is run blocking), Trent is a stud at pass blocking, and Monty is above-average. Meanwhile, Polumbus has given up more sacks than the rest of the line COMBINED, nearly as many QB hits, and nearly as many QB hurries as the rest of the line combined.

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I don't get this criticism; both Chester and Kory are solid pass blocking guards (Kory's problem is run blocking), Trent is a stud at pass blocking, and Monty is above-average. Meanwhile, Polumbus has given up more sacks than the rest of the line COMBINED, nearly as many QB hits, and nearly as many QB hurries as the rest of the line combined.

out side of Trent, our Oline still has issues pass blocking. it would be nice to have a line like Houston's, who also run the same scheme.

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It's an understandable error because Mike thought he could turn McNabb into Elway. I remember hating it at first, but talking myself into it because I wanted Campbell gone and I thought Mike could indeed, fix McNabb.
And you thought if he could fix the 34 year-old McNabb we could win super bowls with the solid supporting cast we had?

BTW the second quote in your post isn't mine.

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out side of Trent, our Oline still has issues pass blocking. it would be nice to have a line like Houston's, who also run the same scheme.

Well, out of 32 teams, the Skins are 23rd in giving up sacks(21). Houston has given up 11 sacks. Thats pretty good. No, its more than pretty good. And when it comes to rushing offense, the Skins are 3rd in the league. Houston is 8th.

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.

Who cares? Do you think Belichik lets the fans decide who stays and who goes?

It is amazing how he runs things. Stockpiles picks, takes chances on players. Heck, they pick somone up about once a week. Fans may like players, but they seem to like wins better and the hoodie is all about doing what is needed to put his team in the best position to win.

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Part of the contract could have been eaten. If he was worth a fifth after all the fuss, he was worth a third before it.

Who cares? Do you think Belichik lets the fans decide who stays and who goes?

What Shanahan could and perhaps should have done is blow up the squad on arrival. He's claimed he didn't realise how bad the squad was when he took over, so if you take him at face value he wasn't about to trade away team players like Cooley, who at the time still looked like they could contribute. It wouldn't have been just the fans who were upset, you have players, staff and a notoriously interfering owner to deal with (who's since kept his nose out of team affairs, but back then would you have trusted Snyder to take a quiet backseat?)

Even if he had traded. we get a third for Haynesworth, and maybe a third for Cooley and a third for Carter, and that would be pushing the bounds of credibility. It's still not six picks in the first two rounds, and we've just made a hole at the TE position to fill with that trade. The plain fact is we were in a bad, bad way for developing a squad when Shanahan took over, because the best players were past their prime, there was no stockpile of picks, and FAs only came to call looking for a payday rather than to be a winner.

Looking at the players we've picked from the 2009 draft onwards, every player we've selected in the first two rounds is starting with the team. In rounds 3 to 5 we've picked 12 players, 9 of them are still with the team with 6 or 7 of them starting. From rounds 6 onwards we've picked 17 players, I think 9 of them are still with us. That doesn't sound too bad a strike rate to me - or you could conclude how poor the squad was given how many low draft selections are playing.

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Well, out of 32 teams, the Skins are 23rd in giving up sacks(21). Houston has given up 11 sacks. Thats pretty good. No, its more than pretty good. And when it comes to rushing offense, the Skins are 3rd in the league. Houston is 8th.

The Skins are doing pretty well in rush blocking, but the number is inflated because Griffin is such an effective runner when the pass blocking breaks down. So the line is getting credit for rushing because their pass protection sucks. Without Griffin's "rushing", the Skins are still doing well, but not at the top. As far as pass blocking goes, 21 sacks when you have the most mobile QB in the league, and one that is looking for chances to run, is not very good.

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out side of Trent, our Oline still has issues pass blocking. it would be nice to have a line like Houston's, who also run the same scheme.

No, Tyler Polumbus has issues pass blocking. So do our RBs. Of those 21 sacks, 5 of them are on Polumbus. 2 of those sacks came when Jordan Black was in the game for Trent Williams.

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The Skins are doing pretty well in rush blocking, but the number is inflated because Griffin is such an effective runner when the pass blocking breaks down. So the line is getting credit for rushing because their pass protection sucks. Without Griffin's "rushing", the Skins are still doing well, but not at the top. As far as pass blocking goes, 21 sacks when you have the most mobile QB in the league, and one that is looking for chances to run, is not very good.

Before the season started, the OL was suppose to be the major issue. Its not. They have played very well. There isn't a dominant OL in the league.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 10:23 AM ----------

No, Tyler Polumbus has issues pass blocking. So do our RBs. Of those 21 sacks, 5 of them are on Polumbus. 2 of those sacks came when Jordan Black was in the game for Trent Williams.

Some of those sacks fall on the head of RG3. Against the Panthers, he held on to the ball for too long. He will learn.

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...Looking at the players we've picked from the 2009 draft onwards, every player we've selected in the first two rounds is starting with the team. In rounds 3 to 5 we've picked 12 players, 9 of them are still with the team with 6 or 7 of them starting. From rounds 6 onwards we've picked 17 players, I think 9 of them are still with us. That doesn't sound too bad a strike rate to me - or you could conclude how poor the squad was given how many low draft selections are playing.
When did Mike claim he didn't know how bad it was? He has said that he advised Kyle not to come here because he saw a five year project.

Fred Davis was the only good pick from the 2008 draft. Davis gave us two options to increase roster value: Run a two-TE base offense or trade Cooley. Mike did neither.

Carter wasn't worth a third. A fifth would have been reasonable. Despite his age, he was healthy and coming off 11.5 sacks in the preious season. We waived him eventually.

Like others who look for excuses for Mike, you are exaggerating how bad the inherited roster was. Either that, or we need to get Jim Zorn back since he won 12 games in two seasons with that talent.

Teams always keep their draft picks as reserves, so counting them really tells us nothing. If Vinny was still here, we would have more of his picks on the current roster.

Mike has five starters out of three drafts since 2010. Belichik has eight.

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Its really hard to tell if the problem is with the scouting department or the team philosophy. Most teams overvalue their draft choices. The Skins undervalue their draft choices. Most teams stay away from the high priced FA market, unless they are going after one player that the need to move to an elite level. When you get a high priced FA, by definition you've paid more than the other 31 teams were willing to pay. How many times is your scouting department better than the other 31 teams' scouting departments? Its a tough way to build a team when you're at the bottom.

I love RG3, but I question whether he is better than having four quality starters. Its going to be tough to fill in the holes without #1s for the next two years, especially with the reduced cap. Too many holes, too few plugs.

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Its really hard to tell if the problem is with the scouting department or the team philosophy. Most teams overvalue their draft choices. The Skins undervalue their draft choices. Most teams stay away from the high priced FA market, unless they are going after one player that the need to move to an elite level. When you get a high priced FA, by definition you've paid more than the other 31 teams were willing to pay. How many times is your scouting department better than the other 31 teams' scouting departments? Its a tough way to build a team when you're at the bottom.

I love RG3, but I question whether he is better than having four quality starters. Its going to be tough to fill in the holes without #1s for the next two years, especially with the reduced cap. Too many holes, too few plugs.

The Giants made a similar trade for Eli, I doubt anyone questions that move. The Skins paid dearly for a franchise qb, but atm Nobody can question that move.

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Could Shanny drafts have been better? sure. But I also look at it this way. Shanny has drafted the best QB maybe ever by the skins. He has drafted a Lt that is playing the best in the nfc east and has a shot at the probowl. His other 1st rd pick Kerrigan is a lock starter (who is healthy) and will make a couple probowls. Has he missed? Yep. But the fact i see young talent at multiple positions gives me hope. Not to mention it looks like the Skins have solved the RB issue. Thru drafts and FA, the Oline is as good as it have been in years. Shanny now has his starters and young depth we will get a better look at next year. I like what i am seeing.

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No, Tyler Polumbus has issues pass blocking. So do our RBs. Of those 21 sacks, 5 of them are on Polumbus. 2 of those sacks came when Jordan Black was in the game for Trent Williams.

You also have account for QB pressures. I don't have time to qualify my statement, but based on the eye test, i'm certain we're among lead leaders in QB hits against our Oline. Even Kyle admitted that he has to curtail the scheme to compensate for pass blocking issue of the OL.

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The Giants made a similar trade for Eli, I doubt anyone questions that move. The Skins paid dearly for a franchise qb, but atm Nobody can question that move.
Disagree on both counts. I think RG3 is the best QB in the NFL but the price was too high, IMO. And the Chargers clearly got the better of the Eli deal at the time. Injuries to the players they picked don't count against them except in hindsight. I think Rivers is better than Eli even on a bad knee.
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The Giants made a similar trade for Eli, I doubt anyone questions that move. The Skins paid dearly for a franchise qb, but atm Nobody can question that move.

You certainly can't argue with the Giants success after the trade, but you could question whether they would have had that success if they had taken, for example, Rothlesberger. The trades and the situations, however, were quite different. First, the Giants traded two #1s, a #3 and a #5. The Skins traded three #1s and a #2. So the difference in trades is between a #1 and a #2 for the Skins and a #3 and #5 for the Giants. That's a big difference. Second, the Giants were coming off a 10-6 record in 2002 to have a 4-12 season in 2003. The core of their team was pretty solid. They didn't need two safeties, a CB, two linebackers, a #1 WR, a fullback and an OL. By 2005 they were at the top of the division again.

This, by the way, is no knock on RG3 or on the decision to get him. If nothing else, he's made it fun to watch the Skins again. But I don't think any QB in the history of the NFL was worth that much and I question the ability to ever fill the holes with quality players. Its not just the number of draft choices, its also the team philosophy, as I mentioned in my post. And I hate to think about the future of the team if RG3 were to be hurt. If Shanahan can fill the holes and keep RG3 healthy until they have a shot, I'll be the first to say he's the greatest coach of all time.

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If Dan Snyder has been willing to throw mountains of money at coaches and free agents, why wouldn't he invest a bunch of money into the scouting department? We should have the best and most expansive group of scouts in the league.
That makes sense but it probably wouldn't have made any difference. The money Dan Snyder has thrown at players and coaches has been wasted. He would probably screw up throwing money at scouts also.
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