Is it time to start evaluating the Scouting Dept? (what should we do going forward?)

[authentic]

That makes sense but it probably wouldn't have made any difference. The money Dan Snyder has thrown at players and coaches has been wasted. He would probably screw up throwing money at scouts also.

but Isn't that what Bruce is there for - to construct the FO? Or is his job only to have company BBQ's and alumni celebrations?

[KCClybun]

Since Mike Shanahan's first draft in 2010, the Skins now have five starters out of their drafts. Belichik has added eight in the same period.

Which eight?

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 11:23 AM ----------

out side of Trent, our Oline still has issues pass blocking. it would be nice to have a line like Houston's, who also run the same scheme.

Not according to Pro Football Focus...

Center – Will Montgomery

Overall #2 (+14.8)

Pass Pro +5.3, Run Block +9.1

QB Sack-1, QB Hit-1, QB Hurries-2

Guard-Chris Chester

Overall #15 (+7.7)

Pass Pro +3.4, Run Block +3.6

QB Sack-0, QB Hit-3, QB Hurries-9

Guard-Kory Lichtensteiger

Overall #47 (-1.8)

Pass Pro +5.4, Run Block -7.4

QB Sack-1, QB Hit-1, QB Hurries-7

Tackle-Trent Williams

Overall #5 (+15.8)

Pass Pro +10.8, Run Block +6.3

QB Sack-2, QB Hit-0, QB Hurries-8

Tackle-Tyler Polumbus

Overall #67 (-16.0)

Pass Pro -8.5, Run Block -11.6

QB Sack-5, QB Hit-4, QB Hurries-23

There's a big glaring hole on the line at right tackle. But the offensive line has done doing a pretty damn good job protecting Robert all things considered; the idea that the o-line can't pass protect isn't true.

[maskedsuperstar]

This, by the way, is no knock on RG3 or on the decision to get him. If nothing else, he's made it fun to watch the Skins again. But I don't think any QB in the history of the NFL was worth that much and I question the ability to ever fill the holes with quality players. Its not just the number of draft choices, its also the team philosophy, as I mentioned in my post. And I hate to think about the future of the team if RG3 were to be hurt. If Shanahan can fill the holes and keep RG3 healthy until they have a shot, I'll be the first to say he's the greatest coach of all time.

RG3 is worth the trade. If you think a franchise QB is worth that, then you make the trade. And why does everyone continue to say "3 first rounders"?

[Oldfan]

but Isn't that what Bruce is there for - to construct the FO? Or is his job only to have company BBQ's and alumni celebrations?

My comment was snide. I think Dan has probably learned to avoid the pricey free agents. Maybe Bruce and Mike have had a positive influence on him. Mike had his own failure with pricey free agents in his Denver experience.

I think the biggest difference between the Patriots and the Redskins is brainpower at the top. Bellichik and Ernie Adams are just much smarter than our decision makers.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 11:36 AM ----------

RG3 is worth the trade. If you think a franchise QB is worth that, then you make the trade. And why does everyone continue to say "3 first rounders"?

We gave up three ones and a two. The Colts gave a one for Luck.

As for what a franchise QB is worth. Could you define "franchise QB" for me? As near as I can tell, most people use it to describe a QB on a winning team, but since he can't win without help, the term is meaningless.

[KCClybun]

Point taken on the lack of patience. But isn't it justified? With the teams that you mentioned, (Indy pre-2011, GB, NYG) they were afforded the luxury of "patience" because they were winning. They had the talent and depth that allowed those players to learn and develop. But then again, look at Indy this year, look at the Bucs this year, look at Seattle. Teams full of 1st and 2nd year players, yet are competing. So i'm not sure i'm buying the "these guys are young and they need time to develop", nah man. Not when there are players and teams around the league that come in and are able to make an immediate impact. But even then, i would be willing to be patient if i felt we were improving, but we're not. Some of it has to do with coaching, others have simply to do with not having the right players. This doesn't only go for drafted players (which have been OK), but FA aquisitions. Sure we're better than we were prior to Shanny (this was mentioned in the OP). However, i think we need to get better.

That's my thing though; the idea that every single year that's like dozens of players who come into the league and just explode into insanely good players. That's not really the case. I think if you looked back and saw the number of guys who had been in the league for a 1-3 years before they had their best seasons, it would far exceed the number of guys who came out the gate firing on all cylinders.

Nearly everyone in the Bucs offense is in their third year. Freeman is in his fourth. The whole o-line consists of veterans, even more so before they lost Davin Joseph and Carl Nicks for the season. The only rookie that sees any regular playing time is Doug Martin, and we've got our own rookie running back sensation on outside of the ball. They're playing no rookie wide receivers. Mike Williams is in year 3, Vincent Jackson is way beyond that.

Defensively, the Bucs rank 30th in the league. But even so, the majority of their defense is made up of guys in their third year or beyond. The only rookie starting on their defense right now is Mark Barron.

The only rookie starting on Seattle's offense is Russell Wilson. Everybody else on their o-line and in their receiving core is a veteran. Outside of Bruce Irvin (who's a situational pass rusher), their entire defense is made up of guys in their third year and over.

So no, those two teams aren't full of guys who are in their 1st and 2nd year. They're full of veteran talent just coming into their prime, and that's on the drafting side and the free agency side.

[GO HAMSKINS]

My comment was snide. I think Dan has probably learned to avoid the pricey free agents. Maybe Bruce and Mike have had a positive influence on him. Mike had his own failure with pricey free agents in his Denver experience.

I think the biggest difference between the Patriots and the Redskins is brainpower at the top. Bellichik and Ernie Adams are just much smarter than our decision makers.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 11:36 AM ----------

We gave up three ones and a two. The Colts gave a one for Luck.

As for what a franchise QB is worth. Could you define "franchise QB" for me? As near as I can tell, most people use it to describe a QB on a winning team, but since he can't win without help, the term is meaningless.

No Franchise Qb means that this is the QB for the future..He's the Qb for the franchise. I means that this is the QB that you'll never have to replace till the QB retires

[Oldfan]

No Franchise Qb means that this is the QB for the future..He's the Qb for the franchise. I means that this is the QB that you'll never have to replace till the QB retires

If we use your definition, then Jason Campbell was our franchise QB until he showed that he wasn't really. Is that right?

[RandyHolt]

If we tried to pass from the pocket much more than we did, I think the great pass blocking stats of our OL would take a hit. Griffin's mobility and our play calling have a hand in their stats IMO.

Watch us trying to pass the ball when the D is laughing at our playactionless passing game. Or even when Morris is taking a breather. D's T off on RG3 and our WR's. They don't need to blitz.

We have not been able to pass like that all year. Our OL simply does not pass the eye test in obvious passing downs. And no, its not just Polumbus either, but any upgrade to the line should start with him. I think Mike rolled the dice on Brown's yoga treatment and simply got burned.

[GO HAMSKINS]

If we use your definition, then Jason Campbell was our franchise QB until he showed that he wasn't really. Is that right?

When did we ever in this town believe JC was the franchise QB? (using my definition) Did JC get traded or retire here in DC?

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 12:07 PM ----------

People were never sold on JC in DC buhahahahah!!

Let's use your definition.... Tim Tebow was a franchise QB in Denver because he played on a winning team? Trent Dilfer was the Ravens franchise QB? lol

[Mad Mike]

oh dear god... :doh:

People... please.... STOP THE MADNESS.

This team has one major problem and no coaching change or scouting department overhaul is going to fix it. IT'S THE SALERY CAP DUMMIES!

Bottom line is that Shanahan and the personnel department have done a good job with the few picks and pick-ups they have been able to make and the garbage they were stuck with when Shanahan was hired. Bottom line is that we are screwed for one more year and until we have the cap space to field an NFL team, blaming Shanahan or anyone else is just stupid.

[Oldfan]

When did we ever in this town believe JC was the franchise QB? (using my definition) Did JC get traded or retire here in DC? People werer never sold on JC in DC! buhahahahah!! You're funny

The iconic Joe Gibbs gave up three picks (1,3,4) to trade up for Campbell. Yet, rather than admit that your definition fails, you will deny that Skins fans hoped and trusted that the Gibbs selected Campbell was their "franchise QB" as you have defined it?

[GO HAMSKINS]

The iconic Joe Gibbs gave up three picks (1,3,4) to trade up for Campbell. Yet, rather than admit that your definition fails, you will deny that Skins fans did not hope and trust that Campbell was their "franchise QB" as you have defined it?

Joe Gibbs could've gave up 5 1st rounders for JC,??? It doesn't change anything...Show me when in this town we thought JC was the franchise Qb? JC did he even start with Gibbs? So are you telling me that Fans believe that the BACKUP QB was the FRANCHISE qb? LOL Your definitions fails because it's too contradicting! According to your definition QB's like Tim Tebow,Trent Dilfer, Rex Grossman, at one point in their careers,were all franchise Qb's based of the fact they were QB's on a "winning team" Buhahahah!!! Epic fail:D

[Mad Mike]

I think the biggest difference between the Patriots and the Redskins is brainpower at the top. Bellichik and Ernie Adams are just much smarter than our decision makers.

Yeah, I'm sure that years of continuity and a long history of great cap management and draft pick stocking has nothing to do with it. :doh:

Bellichik and Ernie Adams CANT CREATE CAP SPACE FROM THIN AIR. And if Bellichik were here instead of Shanahan, he wouldn't do much better. To take it a step further, Shanahan is as close to Bellichik in ability as any coach in the NFL. To fire him with the hope that some young coach could work some sort of miracle would be the ultimate in stupidity.

They say that football is a game of life lessons. Here's one to remember...

Sometimes there are no shortcuts or easy way outs. Sometimes you just have to tough it out and stay the course to get where you want to be.

[authentic]

Defensively, the Bucs rank 30th in the league. But even so, the majority of their defense is made up of guys in their third year or beyond. The only rookie starting on their defense right now is Mark Barron.

The only rookie starting on Seattle's offense is Russell Wilson. Everybody else on their o-line and in their receiving core is a veteran. Outside of Bruce Irvin (who's a situational pass rusher), their entire defense is made up of guys in their third year and over.

So no, those two teams aren't full of guys who are in their 1st and 2nd year. They're full of veteran talent just coming into their prime, and that's on the drafting side and the free agency side.

Fine, now what about The Skins? RG and Morris (rookies)... Trent (year 3) - all of the other starters on Offense are veterans with 4 years or more experience... On defense, Kerrigan (year 2), Riley (year 3), Jenkins (year 2) - all of the other starters on defense are veterans with 4 years or more experience. That makes 6 out of 22 starters with 3 years or less experience. Seems to me that we're almost in the same boat as Seattle, TB, and Indy, based on your standards.

[Oldfan]

Yeah, I'm sure that years of continuity and a long history of great cap management and draft pick stocking has nothing to do with it. :doh:

Those factors are proof of superior brainpower.

Bellichik and Ernie Adams CANT CREATE CAP SPACE FROM THIN AIR.

Smart handling of the cap is an economic problem. Belichik and Adams majored in Economics.

They say that football is a game of life lessons. Here's one to remember...

Sometimes there are no shortcuts or easy way outs. Sometimes you just have to tough it out and stay the course to get where you want to be.

Here's a life lesson that cancels yours out:

It's smart to stick with sound plans and it's dumb to stick with unsound plans.

So, we are well within the bounds of common sense to question the soundness of Shanahan's plan since, in 13 years with full control of a football team, he has won only one playoff game and hasn't made much progress after 2.5 years on this gig.

[maskedsuperstar]

My comment was snide. I think Dan has probably learned to avoid the pricey free agents. Maybe Bruce and Mike have had a positive influence on him. Mike had his own failure with pricey free agents in his Denver experience.

I think the biggest difference between the Patriots and the Redskins is brainpower at the top. Bellichik and Ernie Adams are just much smarter than our decision makers.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 11:36 AM ----------

We gave up three ones and a two. The Colts gave a one for Luck.

As for what a franchise QB is worth. Could you define "franchise QB" for me? As near as I can tell, most people use it to describe a QB on a winning team, but since he can't win without help, the term is meaningless.

The Skins didn't give up 3 first rounders. They moved up.

[Gurgeh]

When did Mike claim he didn't know how bad it was? He has said that he advised Kyle not to come here because he saw a five year project.

Fred Davis was the only good pick from the 2008 draft. Davis gave us two options to increase roster value: Run a two-TE base offense or trade Cooley. Mike did neither.

Carter wasn't worth a third. A fifth would have been reasonable. Despite his age, he was healthy and coming off 11.5 sacks in the preious season. We waived him eventually.

Like others who look for excuses for Mike, you are exaggerating how bad the inherited roster was. Either that, or we need to get Jim Zorn back since he won 12 games in two seasons with that talent.

Teams always keep their draft picks as reserves, so counting them really tells us nothing. If Vinny was still here, we would have more of his picks on the current roster.

Mike has five starters out of three drafts since 2010. Belichik has eight.

The 2008 draft was nothing to do with Shanahan.

You brought up Carter as someone we could get value for in a trade, which was true, but you're right, he was unlikely to get more than a fifth - so why mention him in the first place? Trading him would have made little difference.

How bad the roster was is not an excuse for Shanahan. I think he's made many mistakes with this team, such as trading picks for McNabb and IMO his greatest mistake of switching to a 3-4 defense when we had a decent 4-3, our offense needed overhauling and we had few picks to work with. So he can be criticised for many things, but I don't think his handling of the draft picks that he's had have been bad at all.

Currently drafted starters: RGIII, Morris, Jenkins, Kerrigan, Williams, Riley, Orakpo (inj). That's seven, not five. You could argue Jenkins wouldn't start if Carriker were healthy, but the DL gets rotated. You've also got players like Hankerson, Royster and Paul who see snaps every game. They may not be the first choices at their positions but they have been active every week, and that pushes the number up into double figures. You've also failed to explain where exactly Shanahan could have got the same number of 1st or 2nd round draft picks that Belichik had, or even just one extra first round pick, so please stop using him as a comparison.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Yeah but Terrance Cody played NT at Alabama and he plays for the Ravens who run a 3-4 defense. Then there's Donta Hightower who was a 3-4 ILB at Alabama who played with Cody. Hightower currently plays for the New England Patriots who go back between the 3-4 and the 4-3. Another player is Courtney Upshaw who also played at Alabama. He plays for the Ravens who run a 3-4 defense.

So every 3-4 team should only draft Alabama players?

Getting a guy who played in the 3-4 in college to play in an NFL 3-4 is a luxury, not a requirement.

[Redskins4ever]

See, this is where you are wrong. How many college teams play the 3-4 defense? All the teams you mentioned, drafted players that played the 4-3 in college. Carricker and Cofield played the 3-4 in college. Demarcus Ware? Played in the 4-3 defense at Troy.

Yeah but Terrance Cody played NT at Alabama and he plays for the Ravens who run a 3-4 defense. Then there's Donta Hightower who was a 3-4 ILB at Alabama who played with Cody. Hightower currently plays for the New England Patriots who go back between the 3-4 and the 4-3. Another player is Courtney Upshaw who also played at Alabama. He plays for the Ravens who run a 3-4 defense.

[theTruthTeller]

RG3 is worth the trade. If you think a franchise QB is worth that, then you make the trade. And why does everyone continue to say "3 first rounders"?

What criteria do you have for "worth the trade"? Something less than a SB win? No matter how good Griffin ends up, he won't win a super bowl without a defense. Its still a team game, and the trade makes it harder to put a winning team together. Not impossible, harder.

It remains to be seen if RG3 will be as good as Manning1, Manning2, Favre, or Brady. But the Skins paid significantly more than any of those teams, including NY. It's hard to imagine how you can put a team together if you keep overpaying. Its hardly just RG3 - the salary situation is just as bad as always. Garcon's salary jumps up a lot next year - his cap hit is $8.2M in 2013 and 9.7M in 2014. The cap for next year is expected to be 121M, so with the Mara discount, Garcon is taking up about 1/12 of the cap space. Seriously? He's never had a 1000 yard season and the Skins are betting 1/12 of their cap on him? Jamaal Brown at 4.8M, Cofield at 6.4M and Bowen 4.5M at 8.3M next year? $23M tied up in those four players (cap release fees for 2013: Cofield 7.6M, Brown 3.9M, Garcon 8.8M, Bowen 4.8M)? Over 20% of the cap room? Sorry - it looks like the same story to me - no high draft choice, salary cap problems.

[Redskins4ever]

So every 3-4 team should only draft Alabama players?

Getting a guy who played in the 3-4 in college to play in an NFL 3-4 is a luxury, not a requirement.

Better to have players that fit in perfectly with what you're doing as opposed to acquiring players that have to make a transition from something that they haven't done before.

[Oldfan]

The 2008 draft was nothing to do with Shanahan.

But Davis acquired in the 2008 draft had something to do with Shanahan -- and that is what the sentence said.

You brought up Carter as someone we could get value for in a trade, which was true, but you're right, he was unlikely to get more than a fifth - so why mention him in the first place? Trading him would have made little difference.

You are nit-picking. I mentioned Carter in a group of three. Why not?

Currently drafted starters: RGIII, Morris, Jenkins, Kerrigan, Williams, Riley, Orakpo (inj). That's seven, not five.

Orakpo was Vinny's pick and Jenkins isn't a starter. He's a reserve moved up because of injury.

You could argue Jenkins wouldn't start if Carriker were healthy, but the DL gets rotated. You've also got players like Hankerson, Royster and Paul who see snaps every game. They may not be the first choices at their positions but they have been active every week, and that pushes the number up into double figures.

We can't compare the draft quality of two teams except by counting starters added over a given period. Adding reserves would be pointless. If we counted starters + reserves, every team would be equal, or close to it.

You've also failed to explain where exactly Shanahan could have got the same number of 1st or 2nd round draft picks that Belichik had, or even just one extra first round pick, so please stop using him as a comparison.

I didn't make the claim that they had equal draft picks. I claimed that the NFL allotment of seven was equal with the Pats drafting lower because of a better record.

If Shanahan ended up with less to work with, whose fault is that?

[maskedsuperstar]

What criteria do you have for "worth the trade"? Something less than a SB win? No matter how good Griffin ends up, he won't win a super bowl without a defense. Its still a team game, and the trade makes it harder to put a winning team together. Not impossible, harder.

It remains to be seen if RG3 will be as good as Manning1, Manning2, Favre, or Brady. But the Skins paid significantly more than any of those teams, including NY. It's hard to imagine how you can put a team together if you keep overpaying. Its hardly just RG3 - the salary situation is just as bad as always. Garcon's salary jumps up a lot next year - his cap hit is $8.2M in 2013 and 9.7M in 2014. The cap for next year is expected to be 121M, so with the Mara discount, Garcon is taking up about 1/12 of the cap space. Seriously? He's never had a 1000 yard season and the Skins are betting 1/12 of their cap on him? Jamaal Brown at 4.8M, Cofield at 6.4M and Bowen 4.5M at 8.3M next year? $23M tied up in those four players (cap hits for 2013: Cofield 7.6M, Brown 3.9M, Garcon 8.8M, Bowen 4.8M)? Over 20% of the cap room? Sorry - it looks like the same story to me - no high draft choice, salary cap problems.

Can't win a Super Bowl without a QB. This team has had a top 10 since 2000, how many times? During that same time, how points did the offense average? I don't disagree with you about the defense. But lets be real here. RG3 will be here for a long time. The issue around these parts has been on the offensive side of the ball. Yeah, lets see Rex under center again.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 01:15 PM ----------

Yeah but Terrance Cody played NT at Alabama and he plays for the Ravens who run a 3-4 defense. Then there's Donta Hightower who was a 3-4 ILB at Alabama who played with Cody. Hightower currently plays for the New England Patriots who go back between the 3-4 and the 4-3. Another player is Courtney Upshaw who also played at Alabama. He plays for the Ravens who run a 3-4 defense.

Orakpo played 3-4 at Texas when they ran the scheme. Carricker played 3-4 at Nebraska. Cofield played the 3-4 at Northwestern. Kerrigan stood up some at Purdue.

[RandyHolt]

Better to have players that fit in perfectly with what you're doing as opposed to acquiring players that have to make a transition from something that they haven't done before.

+1

While we all love Kerrigan, an NFL / ESPN analyst made a comment right when we drafted him, saying there is a little risk in taking a guy at 16 yet forcing a position change on him. And he is right. And I think its true of every OL we take as well, having to be "coached up" to dominate moving around.

Mike wanted to go 3-4 and it has not worked thus far. We can argue injuries, cap hits, bad fits, haslits, but in the end, it is probably more a combination of them all. But he wanted to change directions and go after guys he had to project.

We had speed pass rushers. But Rob Jackson seems a shell of his former self coming off the edge. He used to get a fair amount of reps and pressure in our 4-3. Chris Wilson too. I dunno, but they just don't seem as effective to me now. Zo used to do well in our 4-3, now I see him as a teamer only.

I just think finding talent and building depth is more difficult when projections are having to be made on the OL DL and LB every single draft. Our 4-3 while aging, was far from broken.

[Redskins4ever]

Can't win a Super Bowl without a QB. This team has had a top 10 since 2000, how many times? During that same time, how points did the offense average? I don't disagree with you about the defense. But lets be real here. RG3 will be here for a long time. The issue around these parts has been on the offensive side of the ball. Yeah, lets see Rex under center again.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 01:15 PM ----------

Orakpo played 3-4 at Texas when they ran the scheme. Carricker played 3-4 at Nebraska. Cofield played the 3-4 at Northwestern. Kerrigan stood up some at Purdue.

Mack Brown never ran a 3-4 at Texas. Brian Orakpo was a DE in a 4-3. Adam Carriker was a DT in a 4-3 for the Cornhuskers.It is factual that Barry Cofield played NT at Northwestern. As far as Kerrigan standing up at Purdue, Richard Dent did the same thing for the Chicago Bears back in the days in the 46. No of these players with the exception of Cofield is a natural fit in a 3-4 scheme and Cofield is not a convential NT. That's why the NY Midgets drafted him as a DT.