Is it time to start evaluating the Scouting Dept? (what should we do going forward?)

[Redskins4ever]

+1

While we all love Kerrigan, an NFL / ESPN analyst made a comment right when we drafted him, saying there is a little risk in taking a guy at 16 yet forcing a position change on him. And he is right. And I think its true of every OL we take as well.

Mike wanted to go 3-4 and it has not worked thus far. We can argue injuries, cap hits, bad fits, haslits, but in the end, it is probably more a combination of them all. But he wanted to change directions and go after guys he had to project.

We had speed pass rushers. But Rob Jackson seems a shell of his former self coming off the edge. He used to get a fair amount of reps and pressure in our 4-3. Chris Wilson too. I dunno, but they just don't seem as effective to me now. Zo used to do well in our 4-3, now I see him as a teamer only.

I just think finding talent and building depth is more difficult when projections are having to be made on the OL DL and LB every single draft. Our 4-3 while aging, was far from broken.

I'm really displeased with Shanahan and the decisions that he's made. If Bruce Allen was picking the players I wouldn't be so mad with Shanahan. But it almost never works when a head coach also is in charge of personnel. To make a long story short, the majority of our front seven is natural 4-3 DEs and DTs, and MLBs and the 4-3 is what we should be running. Shanahan wanted to switch to the 3-4 because that scheme supposedly causes more turnovers. Maybe so. But if you compare to causing turnovers in one scheme as opposed to smothering opposing offenses with another scheme(4-3) and getting the ball back to your offense, which scheme would you choose? If anything the Redskins should be running the 3-4 in some situations and the 4-3 in other situations.

[maskedsuperstar]

2006 Skins defense, under Gregg Williams 4-3

Total defense 31

Pass 23rd

Run 27th

2012 Skins defense, under Haslett 3-4

Total defense 27th

Pass 30th

Run 8th

[theTruthTeller]

Can't win a Super Bowl without a QB. This team has had a top 10 since 2000, how many times? During that same time, how points did the offense average? I don't disagree with you about the defense. But lets be real here. RG3 will be here for a long time. The issue around these parts has been on the offensive side of the ball. Yeah, lets see Rex under center again.

Possibly there will be a few quarterbacks that are much better than Rex, but not quite as good as RG3, available in the first round in 2013 or 2014. The best qb doesn't always win the SB. The best team generally does.

[Oldfan]

Joe Gibbs could've gave up 5 1st rounders for JC,??? It doesn't change anything...Show me when in this town we thought JC was the franchise Qb? JC did he even start with Gibbs? So are you telling me that Fans believe that the BACKUP QB was the FRANCHISE qb? LOL

Are you a Redskins fan? You don't remember that Campbell was once our QB hope and you don't remember him starting 52 games? Jason was never a backup QB. He went from third on the depth chart to number one in 2006 and never lost that job until he was traded. By your definition Jason was once our franchise QB.

[theTruthTeller]

Are you a Redskins fan? You don't remember that Campbell was once our QB hope and you don't remember him starting 52 games? Jason was never a backup QB. He went from third on the depth chart to number one in 2006 and never lost that job until he was traded. By your definition Jason was once our franchise QB.

Agreed. Jason was supposed to be the man, but JG wanted to ease him into the position. No one trades up in the first round to get their backup qb.

[maskedsuperstar]

Possibly there will be a few quarterbacks that are much better than Rex, but not quite as good as RG3, available in the first round in 2013 or 2014. The best qb doesn't always win the SB. The best team generally does.

The best team, with a good QB. You are not going to win in this league without one.

[authentic]

+1

While we all love Kerrigan, an NFL / ESPN analyst made a comment right when we drafted him, saying there is a little risk in taking a guy at 16 yet forcing a position change on him. And he is right. And I think its true of every OL we take as well, having to be "coached up" to dominate moving around.

Mike wanted to go 3-4 and it has not worked thus far. We can argue injuries, cap hits, bad fits, haslits, but in the end, it is probably more a combination of them all. But he wanted to change directions and go after guys he had to project.

We had speed pass rushers. But Rob Jackson seems a shell of his former self coming off the edge. He used to get a fair amount of reps and pressure in our 4-3. Chris Wilson too. I dunno, but they just don't seem as effective to me now. Zo used to do well in our 4-3, now I see him as a teamer only.

I just think finding talent and building depth is more difficult when projections are having to be made on the OL DL and LB every single draft. Our 4-3 while aging, was far from broken.

My only issue regarding the scheme is that Mike hired Haz, knowing FULL well that Haz was more confortable with the 4-3. Haz even prefered the 4-3. Why did Shanny bring in Spanos (who was probably the most well versed in the 3-4 on the staff) but not make him the DC from the jump. All the talk about Kerrigan and/or Orakpo being natural DE's in college is mute, because all 3-4 OLBs in the NFL were 4-3 DEs in college. I don't know of one college team who runs the 3-4.

[BobGriffin]

I question this scouting department's ability to close in on true 3-4 personnel. Everyone on the front seven has played in the 4-3 in the NFL or in college. You look at team's like NE, Pitt, and Balt. who run the 3-4 and they are drafting players who played in the 3-4 in college. The Redskins aren't doing that.

This is just incorrect you can most likely count on one hand how many teams play the 3-4 consistently in college and of those teams maybe 3 produce NFL talent.

Demarcus Ware DE in college

Ziggy Hood DT in college

Brooks Reed DE in college

Aldon Smith DE in college

Anthony Spencer DE in college

Terrell Suggs DE in college

Haloti Ngata DT in college

Richard Semour (DT in college DE when for Pats 3-4)

Glen Dorsey DT in college

I can go on and on but the overwhelming vast majority of the outside front 7 players played a different position in college. Most 3-4 defensive ends where taller defensive tackles. Most 3-4 OLBs where smaller defensive ends in college

[maskedsuperstar]

My only issue regarding the scheme is that Mike hired Haz, knowing FULL well that Haz was more confortable with the 4-3. Haz even prefered the 4-3. Why did Shanny bring in Spanos (who was probably the most well versed in the 3-4 on the staff) but not make him the DC from the jump. All the talk about Kerrigan and/or Orakpo being natural DE's in college is mute, because all 3-4 OLBs in the NFL were 4-3 DEs in college. I don't know of one college team who runs the 3-4.

Maryland

Notre Dame

TCU

Oregon

Nebraska

Haslett was the DC for the Steelers for 2 years. He has experience with running the defense. The front 7 is good. The secondary sucks!

[pjfootballer]

My only issue regarding the scheme is that Mike hired Haz, knowing FULL well that Haz was more confortable with the 4-3. Haz even prefered the 4-3. Why did Shanny bring in Spanos (who was probably the most well versed in the 3-4 on the staff) but not make him the DC from the jump. All the talk about Kerrigan and/or Orakpo being natural DE's in college is mute, because all 3-4 OLBs in the NFL were 4-3 DEs in college. I don't know of one college team who runs the 3-4.

Maryland. They've been running it for years. Alabama to name another. Georgia and LSU. Cal and Ga Tech. Almost forgot about Notre Dame.

* Masked and I are on the same page.

[BobGriffin]

Maryland. They've been running it for years. Alabama to name another. Georgia and LSU. Cal and Ga Tech. Almost forgot about Notre Dame.

* Masked and I are on the same page.

only time maryland produced a 3-4 OLB they ran a 3-3-5 and Shawne Merriman played DE and OLB.

He is 90% right tho.

Georgia ? they just started running this. Justin Houston was drafted in 2011 he plays OLB for the chiefs. Is playing well... he played DE in a 4-3 while at georgia.

LSU plays with 4 down linemen your just flat out wrong here.

Notre Dame has produced 0 nlf caliber 3-4 OLBs or 3-4 DEs .

[RandyHolt]

Maryland almost seems a shadow of the football program it was when I went there. Chuck Faucette and our 4-3 FTW.

Other teams may successfully convert 43DEs to OLBs but there have to be examples where players have struggled, failed, or simply don't dominate as they did hand in dirt a little bigger, playing their natural position, without having to even think about it. Why did they fail...was it always 4-3 coaches, or were some poor candidates to convert; just why dont they all get 10+ sacks?

Those teams that hit homers on stud OLB's Ware etc, did they have a working 34 in place for them to integrate into, mentors in place perhaps? Or were they all but expected to spearhead the transition as rookies, like Kerrigan or even Rak in his second season?

Coaching may have a lot to do with it, but some guys just want to get after the QB and do it much better than they do in space covering the flat. Some guys just dont have the hips. Rak looks stiff to me.

Any time I see Kerrigan in coverage, I know we are not going to sack the QB. Is Kerrigan in space, what is best for our team?

I for one think the answer is no. QB's must love it.

[Mad Mike]

Those factors are proof of superior brainpower.

So It's Shanahan's fault for not being here and not screwing up our cap space? He should have been smart enough to not waste money on garbage like Hannesworth right? :doh:

Smart handling of the cap is an economic problem. Belichik and Adams majored in Economics.

So they would be able to create cap space from thin air? :doh: :doh:

Here's a life lesson that cancels yours out:

It's smart to stick with sound plans and it's dumb to stick with unsound plans.

That's the theory that has fueled the coaching carousel that has destroyed this team over the past decade. By all means... lets do that again for another decade. That should work. :doh: :doh: :doh:

So, we are well within the bounds of common sense to question the soundness of Shanahan's plan since, in 13 years with full control of a football team, he has won only one playoff game and hasn't made much progress after 2.5 years on this gig.

The bottom line is that you have not intelligently addressed the Redskins real problems. Until you do that you don't have a CLUE as to how to fix the team no matter how many stupid threads you start.

[authentic]

Maryland. They've been running it for years. Alabama to name another. Georgia and LSU. Cal and Ga Tech. Almost forgot about Notre Dame.

* Masked and I are on the same page.

cool, but we all know that most NFL OLBs come from college programs where they were DEs. I don't want to appear dismissive, but i usually hear this argument as to why Rak and Ryan are out of position as 3-4 OLBs, but IMO, it doesn't hold much water.

[Oldfan]

...Any time I see Kerrigan in coverage, I know we are not going to sack the QB. Is Kerrigan in space, what is best for our team?

We're thinking alike. I don't like to second-guess coaches as a rule, but sometimes things just don't make sense. I think coaches outsmart themselves sometimes: "Ha, Ha! Fooled you! I have Orakpo and Kerrigan back in coverage this time, Dummy!"

[maskedsuperstar]

only time maryland produced a 3-4 OLB they ran a 3-3-5 and Shawne Merriman played DE and OLB.

He is 90% right tho.

Georgia ? they just started running this. Justin Houston was drafted in 2011 he plays OLB for the chiefs. Is playing well... he played DE in a 4-3 while at georgia.

LSU plays with 4 down linemen your just flat out wrong here.

Notre Dame has produced 0 nlf caliber 3-4 OLBs or 3-4 DEs .

LSU currently has 2 players that will be standing up at the next level, if they decide to the draft.

[BobGriffin]

cool, but we all know that most NFL OLBs come from college programs where they were DEs. I don't want to appear dismissive, but i usually hear this argument as to why Rak and Ryan are out of position as 3-4 OLBs, but IMO, it doesn't hold much water.

My sentiments exactly. 3-4 OLB isn't THAT much different from 4-3 DE. 4-3 comes with more run responsibility less pass. 3-4 OLB comes with more responsibility with coverage less in the run game. That's it players make the transition every year and have an impact. You want to know another transition college 4-3 DEs have a hard time making? The transition to NFL 4-3 DE. I cannot tell you how many massive busts there have been at that position. Everrette Brown comes to my mind immediatley he actually would have been a better fit as a 3-4 OLB. How about Aaron Maybin in Buffalo? Was TURRIBLE in a 4-3, he contributed in the Jets 3-4. So the "oh he'd be better in the 4-3 comments" are growing very tired

[Mad Mike]

Possibly there will be a few quarterbacks that are much better than Rex, but not quite as good as RG3, available in the first round in 2013 or 2014. The best qb doesn't always win the SB. The best team generally does.

Superbowl winning teams...

2012: Giants - Eli Manning

2011: Packers - Aaron Rogers

2010: Saints - Drew Brees

2009: Steelers - Ben Rothlesburger

2008: Giants - Eli Manning

2007: Colts - Payton Manning

2006: Patriots - Tom Brady

2005: Patriots - Tom Brady

Yeah, the impact of a great QB is vastly over-rated.

[BobGriffin]

LSU currently has 2 players that will be standing up at the next level, if they decide to the draft.

lmao

His argument was that they play a 3-4 and they don't. This further proves my point about majority of the 3-4 OLB come from college 4-3 schemese

Montgomery will most likely play in a 4-3 he has that profile

Mingo will be a 3-4 OLB or a 4-3 pass rush specialist a la Bruce Irving

I am confused though. Do you stand on the side where transitioning players to from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB is not the best idea? or are you on the side that feels that it's common practice and that's where the majority and best 3-4 pass rushers come from?

[RandyHolt]

We're thinking alike. I don't like to second-guess coaches as a rule, but sometimes things just don't make sense. I think coaches outsmart themselves sometimes: "Ha, Ha! Fooled you! I have Orakpo and Kerrigan back in coverage this time, Dummy!"

I don't think Rak does well in coverage so he was almost always the LB getting after the QB. Maybe I am wrong, I am not an expert, just a fan obsessed with seeing progress in Skin Town. But I believe the prime benefit of going 3-4 was that the opposition doesn't know which LB is going to blitz.

So I think they know Rak is coming. And to his credit, he still gets in there. But its tough.

Are we reaping that "they dunno which guy is coming" benefit at all? If not, the 3-4 was not needed.

It seems imperative our OLB's are at least average in pass coverage and have guys that can get after the passer when they drop back.

Even with Rak and Kerrigan at full health, I feel like the surprise of Kerrigan NOT blitzing (delayed ILB instead) outweighs the benefit of him coming, even if they know it. We are not using perhaps our best pass rusher - its plain and simple; our coaches are out thinking ourselves.

[maskedsuperstar]

I'm really displeased with Shanahan and the decisions that he's made. If Bruce Allen was picking the players I wouldn't be so mad with Shanahan. But it almost never works when a head coach also is in charge of personnel. To make a long story short, the majority of our front seven is natural 4-3 DEs and DTs, and MLBs and the 4-3 is what we should be running. Shanahan wanted to switch to the 3-4 because that scheme supposedly causes more turnovers. Maybe so. But if you compare to causing turnovers in one scheme as opposed to smothering opposing offenses with another scheme(4-3) and getting the ball back to your offense, which scheme would you choose? If anything the Redskins should be running the 3-4 in some situations and the 4-3 in other situations.

How many colleges run a 3-4 defense? They aren't many. A lot of college DE's are too small to play DE in the NFL. But they have athletic ability to play OLB in the 3-4.

3-4 or 4-3, doesn't matter the base defense. The problem is in the secondary.

[C26 Run]

Both Campbell and Brown should be gone.

Campbell is apart of the Vinny administration and we all know what a disaster that was. I'd also do a massive overhaul of the Scouting staff as well. Our young core has yet to develop into anything special. Hankerson, A. Robinson, Keenan Robinson, and some other players have yet been able to step into their roles.

Brown scouts potential free agents and he's produced a very mix bag of players. While Bowen and Cofield have worked out well, Garcon has not been what we've hoped. Dezmon Briscoe made the team and he hasn't done much of anything. His biggest free agent scouting failure was Jammal Brown.

:helmet:

[maskedsuperstar]

I don't think Rak does well in coverage so he was almost always the LB getting after the QB. Maybe I am wrong, I am not an expert, just a fan obsessed with seeing progress in Skin Town. But I believe the prime benefit of going 3-4 was that the opposition doesn't know which LB is going to blitz.

So I think they know Rak is coming. And to his credit, he still gets in there. But its tough.

Are we reaping that "they dunno which guy is coming" benefit at all? If not, the 3-4 was not needed.

Even with Rak and Kerrigan at full health, I feel like the surprise of Kerrigan NOT blitzing (delayed ILB instead) outweighs the benefit of him coming, even if they know it. We are not using perhaps our best pass rusher - its plain and simple; our coaches are out thinking ourselves.

yes, that is what the 3-4 defense is all about.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 02:36 PM ----------

Both Campbell and Brown should be gone.

Campbell is apart of the Vinny administration and we all know what a disaster that was. I'd also do a massive overhaul of the Scouting staff as well. Our young core has yet to develop into anything special. Hankerson, A. Robinson, Keenan Robinson, and some other players have yet been able to step into their roles.

Brown scouts potential free agents and he's produced a very mix bag of players. While Bowen and Cofield have worked out well, Garcon has not been what we've hoped. Dezmon Briscoe was traded for and made the team and he hasn't done much of anything. His biggest free agent scouting failure was Jammal Brown.

:helmet:

Vinny never listened to the scouts. Lets be for real here. Garcon has been injured. So, how can you judge him? Dezmon Briscoe was not traded for. Tampa Bay cut him.

[Oldfan]

The bottom line is that you have not intelligently addressed the Redskins real problems. Until you do that you don't have a CLUE as to how to fix the team no matter how many stupid threads you start.

Well, Mike, rather than ****ing about it. Why don't you start a thread and explain it all to us?

So It's Shanahan's fault for not being here and not screwing up our cap space? He should have been smart enough to not waste money on garbage like Hannesworth right?

Bruce Allen was supposed to be a master of the cap. How is it that we have cap penalties after three seasons on his watch that we didn't have with his predecessor?

So they would be able to create cap space from thin air?

So, they know what they're doing -- because they're smarter.

That's the theory that has fueled the coaching carousel that has destroyed this team over the past decade. By all means... lets do that again for another decade. That should work.

So, you think that not sticking with a coach was Snyder's mistake in the past? I'm curious. Which one would you have stuck with and for what reason?

[authentic]

My sentiments exactly. 3-4 OLB isn't THAT much different from 4-3 OLB. 4-3 comes with more run responsibility less pass. 3-4 OLB comes with more responsibility with coverage less in the run game. That's it players make the transition every year and have an impact. You want to know another transition college 4-3 DEs have a hard time making? The transition to NFL 4-3 DE. I cannot tell you how many massive busts there have been at that position. Everrette Brown comes to my mind immediatley he actually would have been a better fit as a 3-4 OLB. How about Aaron Maybin in Buffalo? Was TURRIBLE in a 4-3, he contributed in the Jets 3-4. So the "oh he'd be better in the 4-3 comments" are growing very tired

Exactly!!!