Is it time to start evaluating the Scouting Dept? (what should we do going forward?)

[maskedsuperstar]

Brady gets a lot of help from Welker and his guys underneath but his talents for a 6th rounder are undeniable. The touch on his pass, finesse, and accuracy are phenomenal.

Eli's game last week against the Bengals is the true Eli Manning in its truest form. Go watch if you haven't seen it...

he does look like hot garbage at times but..............

[DogofWar1]

Rodgers was a low first round draft choice. Ben was too. Brady and Brees further down in the draft. All obviously good enough to win a super bowl. The Skins would have been drafting in the early part of the first rounds for the next two years if they hadn't spent their picks on RG3. Why couldn't they find a QB of that quality in one of the drafts? Giving three #1s and a #2 on one player is unprecedented, especially considering how bad the core of the team is. Where do you plan on getting 2 WRs, 2 ILBs, 2 safeties, at least one CB, and a RT?

Another year of Grossman then?

Rodgers - fell a lot farther than anyone anticipated. He was, quite frankly, better than Smith, the 49ers just so happened to not like Rodger's attitude. Smith is merely competent, not franchise.

Brees - height was a major concern there. He fell because of that. If we replayed that draft today, he'd be picked top 10 easily based on his skillset.

Ben - He was 11th, not really late, and was in probably the most talent filled class in recent history, what with Eli AND Rivers there. If either of them isn't there, Ben is a top 4 pick.

Brady - 6th rounders work out about as often as we get total solar eclipses in DC, which is to say, not bloody often.

I mean, you could throw Romo sits to pee there, Schaub, or Dalton even. Undrafted, 3rd rounder, and 2nd rounders respectively.

Problem is, it's like Shanahan said last season, there are about 10-15 men on Earth worthy of being franchise QBs for NFL teams, and there are 32 teams. Most of those 10-15 guys are picked within the first couple picks of the first round, especially today, with the NFL being such a heavy passing league.

Even assuming worst case scenario concerning the positions you listed, we'll have a 1st again in 2015, and RGIII will only be 25. That being said, there's little reason to believe we can't solve some of the problems. Our 2nd rounder should fix one of the problems, and some of the solutions are either most likely on the roster (Robinson for ILB), or could be fixed with FAs after we cut some of the expensive players (Byrd at FS, after cutting Hall, Moss, Fletcher, Brown, etc.).

[theTruthTeller]

I guess I'm convinced. What year(s) should I plan to go to the Super Bowl? Please don't tell me its 2014 - that one is in New Jersey. Are we a sure thing for 2015 in Glendale? That would work for me.

[Oldfan]

That's why he won a SB with what PFF called one of the worst OLs in the NFL last year. That OL sucks, and has for a while, but Eli, like Brady, makes them look a lot better than they are.

Let's be clear now. Are you saying that PFF ranked the Giants O-line low in pass blocking? If they did, it would cause me to distrust PFF

And you seem to be saying that teamwork is a one-way street. QBs help their O-lines, but get no help from them?

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 07:02 PM ----------

...Eli contributed a lot to those games. Is he flashy? No! Does he get the job done? Yes! I bet if Jason Campbell was under center for the Giants, they wouldn't have sniffed the Super Bowl.

This exchange began with a claim that Eli is great. Now we are down to a claim that he is better than Jason Campbell?

Okay, we have agreement.

[Mad Mike]

That's probably Mike's answer too. That the logical fallacy called 'circular reasoning."

Mike: It takes a great QB to win Super Bowls;

Why do you think Eli's great?

Mike: Because he won two Super Bowls.

BTW, I read an NFL column by Brian Billick claiming that Eli should now be considered elite because he won two rings. I went back a couple of days later and the column had been edited -- no mention of Eli. Someone must have alerted Billick to his circular reasoning. Peyton would not be elite by the two-ring standard.

Really? Now you are going to make up answers for me? Dude If you are going to be a blowhard, you might want to at least attempt to ground your silly opinions in reality.

Is he *as* great as the others? Maybe not. But Eli *is* a great QB for two reasons. He's not the most athletic QB, he doesn't have the biggest, most accurate arm, but the dude knows the game damn near as well as Payton and he's as cool as ice under pressure.

[Oldfan]

...Problem is, it's like Shanahan said last season, there are about 10-15 men on Earth worthy of being franchise QBs for NFL teams, and there are 32 teams. Most of those 10-15 guys are picked within the first couple picks of the first round, especially today, with the NFL being such a heavy passing league...

The "franchise QB" tag is mainly BS. Have you ever heard the term applied to a QB of a losing team?

Robert Griffin is the best QB talent I've ever seen, but he isn't going to win without a very good support system: good scheme, good receivers, good O-line, good defense and good special teams.

One problem with paying three ones and a two for him is that it makes it less likely that he will get the support he needs. Bear in mind, I said LESS LIKELY. I didn't say impossible.

Another problem is that Robert's added value is in his legs. The more you use those legs as a weapon, the more likely he is to be hurt. If he's used to his maximum, he's much less likely to last long enough to make the price we paid worthwhile.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 08:02 PM ----------

...Is he *as* great as the others? Maybe not. But Eli *is* a great QB for two reasons. He's not the most athletic QB, he doesn't have the biggest, most accurate arm, but the dude knows the game damn near as well as Payton and he's as cool as ice under pressure.

I see. He's not as great as the others. So, he's a lower-grade great quarterback? And even though he's not good at the things we all can see, he's really terrific at the things that can't be seen.

I don't suppose you can explain how you determined that he knows the game as well as Peyton. And, how did you determine that he's as cool as ice under pressure? It appears to me from his reactions that he comes apart like a cheap suit under pressure.

[Mad Mike]

I see. He's not as great as the others. So, he's a lower-grade great quarterback? And even though he's not good at the things we all can see, he's really terrific at the things that can't be seen.

I don't suppose you can explain how you determined that he knows the game as well as Peyton. And, how did you determine that he's as cool as ice under pressure? It appears to me from his reactions that he comes apart like a cheap suit under pressure.

I guess thats the difference between you and me. I can spot intelligence. That and I have the common sense to understand that you don't grow up playing QB in the Manning family without picking a few things up along the way. I'm a genius that way.

And yeah, he falls apart under pressure... That's how he plays so well in big games and wins superbowl's in last minute game winning drives.

:rotflmao:

[KCClybun]

I guess thats the difference between you and me. I can spot intelligence. That and I have the common sense to understand that you don't grow up playing QB in the Manning family without picking a few things up along the way. I'm a genius that way.

And yeah, he falls apart under pressure... That's how he plays so well in big games and wins superbowl's in last minute game winning drives.

:rotflmao:

One must remember that Oldfan also thinks Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are overrated system quarterbacks and that Marc Bulger could've also gone to five Super Bowls under Bill Belichick.

Scouting quarterback talent is not his strong suit.

[Oldfan]

I guess thats the difference between you and me. I can spot intelligence. That and I have the common sense to understand that you don't grow up playing QB in the Manning family without picking a few things up along the way. I'm a genius that way.

Your claim was that he knows the game as well as Peyton. Since you were supporting your opinion of Eli's low-grade greatness. I assumed you talking about Peyton's knowledge and preparation for the pro game in which he has advanced the state of the art. So, your claim now is that Eli is great because of stuff he picked up around the house?

And yeah, he falls apart under pressure... That's how he plays so well in big games and wins superbowl's in last minute game winning drives.

Again, we are talking about different kinds of pressure. I thought you were talking about pressure from the rush -- which, despite his low-grade greatness, he doesn't handle well.

[Mad Mike]

One must remember that Oldfan also thinks Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are overrated system quarterbacks and that Marc Bulger could've also gone to five Super Bowls under Bill Belichick.

Scouting quarterback talent is not his strong suit.

I would say scouting football in general is not his strong suit. And considering he doesn't think it helps to grow up in a family of quarterbacks with Payton there to talk to and learn from, I'm guessing common sensemay be an issue as well.

---------- Post added November-15th-2012 at 01:52 PM ----------

Again, we are talking about different kinds of pressure. I thought you were talking about pressure from the rush -- which, despite his low-grade greatness, he doesn't handle well.

Yeah because there was no pass rush in those big game wins.

Dude. Get off your high horse. You are just another of a million fans who think they know more about the game than they do.

And for the record, while I do think that I know the game and what it takes to build a winning team far better than you, the real difference between you and me is that I recognize how little I know compared to a professional coach, much less a coach with the resume of Mike Shanahan. And I don't start a dozens of threads because I prefer to spend most of my time trying to observe and learn the game rather than telling everyone who will listen how much I think I know. And the only reason I even bother responding to threads like yours is because even the most idiotic ideas can gain a following and a forum full of stupidity ruins the experience of coming to this site.

[Darkstarr]

Disagree on both counts. I think RG3 is the best QB in the NFL but the price was too high, IMO. And the Chargers clearly got the better of the Eli deal at the time. Injuries to the players they picked don't count against them except in hindsight. I think Rivers is better than Eli even on a bad knee.

when trading for a franchise qb, u are trading for 10 yrs not just atm. Nobody in their right mind thinks SD got the better end of that deal now after looking back. Rivers had plenty of talent around him and never got it done, Eli got it done. QB's are judged on SB's. Nobody atm thinks Rivers is better then Eli.

[Oldfan]

I would say scouting football in general is not his strong suit. And considering he doesn't think it helps to grow up in a family of quarterbacks with Payton there to talk to and learn from, I'm guessing common sensemay be an issue as well.

So, you are insisting that Eli is a great QB because he grew up in the Manning household. That's your idea of common sense?

Yeah because there was no pass rush in those big game wins.

Sure there was, there just wasn't enough to get Eli to fold up. If you look at his big game losses, you will see what I mean.

Dude. Get off your high horse. You are just another of a million fans who think they know more about the game than they do.

Could be, but I wasn't the one writing like a know-it-all in this thread.

Mad Mike: oh dear god...People... please.... STOP THE MADNESS. This team has one major problem and no coaching change or scouting department overhaul is going to fix it. IT'S THE SALERY CAP DUMMIES!

And I don't start a dozens of threads because I prefer to spend most of my time trying to observe and learn the game rather than telling everyone who will listen how much I think I know.

You don't start threads because few care what you have to say.

---------- Post added November-15th-2012 at 10:48 AM ----------

when trading for a franchise qb, u are trading for 10 yrs not just atm. Nobody in their right mind thinks SD got the better end of that deal now after looking back. Rivers had plenty of talent around him and never got it done, Eli got it done. QB's are judged on SB's. Nobody atm thinks Rivers is better then Eli.

Anyone who grades QBs on Super Bowl wins should switch to watching Soccer. Football isn't their game.

[Skins Wingman]

The "franchise QB" tag is mainly BS. Have you ever heard the term applied to a QB of a losing team?

sam bradford - rams

matt stafford - lions

i'll even put tony Romo sits to pee - cowboys

Robert Griffin is the best QB talent I've ever seen

drinking too much koolaid

Another problem is that Robert's added value is in his legs. The more you use those legs as a weapon, the more likely he is to be hurt. If he's used to his maximum, he's much less likely to last long enough to make the price we paid worthwhile.

this is the biggest misconception in the nfl. this is the michael vick effect. vick always gets hurt, so everyone associates his running with getting him hurt. running quarterbacks dont get hurt, dumb decisions get you hurt.

[Oldfan]

sam bradford - rams

matt stafford - lions

i'll even put tony Romo sits to pee - cowboys

You heard it in Bradford's rookie year because the Rams won more games than the previous year. You didn't hear it the following year when the team regressed. You hear it about Matt Stafford because the Lions have turned it around. I haven't heard Romo sits to pee's name mentioned as an example of a franchise QB.

drinking too much koolaid

I never touch the stuff.

this is the biggest misconception in the nfl. this is the michael vick effect. vick always gets hurt, so everyone associates his running with getting him hurt. running quarterbacks dont get hurt, dumb decisions get you hurt.

Logic: When QBs get hit in the pocket they sometimes get hurt; when they add runs to that, and they get hit by even more big, fast defenders, they get hurt even more often.

[TheLongshot]

Robert Griffin is the best QB talent I've ever seen, but he isn't going to win without a very good support system: good scheme, good receivers, good O-line, good defense and good special teams.

One problem with paying three ones and a two for him is that it makes it less likely that he will get the support he needs. Bear in mind, I said LESS LIKELY. I didn't say impossible.

I think this is the statement everyone misses. It is certainly something I have said for years: QBs don't do it all by themselves. Football is a team game, and each position contributes to wins. That is why, despite the fact we upgraded at the QB position, we probably will end up with a similar record. RG3 has few people he can throw to who will make plays. The OL is very limited in protecting the QB, so throwing deep is rare. The defense can't hold a lead, so all the pressure is on RG3 to make plays.

Another problem is that Robert's added value is in his legs. The more you use those legs as a weapon, the more likely he is to be hurt. If he's used to his maximum, he's much less likely to last long enough to make the price we paid worthwhile.

I think this becomes less of an issue when he isn't the only playmaker on the field. Right now, RG3 is it. Give him some weapons that the defense has to focus on and some good protection, and he won't need to run as often.

But, that is a big reason why I was so disappointed in the efforts to rebuild the OL. We are using a few guys who probably shouldn't be starting in the NFL, and I don't see this line becoming a top one anytime soon. After 3 years, that's a pretty big disappointment, particularly when it looks like the draft hasn't turned out as many impact players as we've hoped.

[Skins Wingman]

Logic: When QBs get hit in the pocket they sometimes get hurt; when they add runs to that, and they get hit by even more big, fast defenders, they get hurt even more often.

tom brady missed a whole year getting hurt in the pocket, a play that someone like vick or rg3 could have avoided. running qbs can also get hurt less because of their ability to escape. vick is pretty much the only qb in the nfl who's constantly hurt and thats because he's an idiot

[TheLongshot]

tom brady missed a whole year getting hurt in the pocket, a play that someone like vick or rg3 could have avoided. running qbs can also get hurt less because of their ability to escape. vick is pretty much the only qb in the nfl who's constantly hurt and thats because he's an idiot

Well, he also has an awful OL right now, given all the injuries.

[Oldfan]

I think this is the statement everyone misses. It is certainly something I have said for years: QBs don't do it all by themselves. Football is a team game, and each position contributes to wins. That is why, despite the fact we upgraded at the QB position, we probably will end up with a similar record. RG3 has few people he can throw to who will make plays. The OL is very limited in protecting the QB, so throwing deep is rare. The defense can't hold a lead, so all the pressure is on RG3 to make plays....

Emphasizing the line I bolded...

When his defense causes RG3 to play catch up, and the opponent's defense knows he has to pass, things go downhill in a hurry. Shanahan can't mask the weakness of the O-line to pass protect -- more rush pressure, more sacks, more fumbles and more INTs... not to mention that RG3's QB rating then looks like crap compared to Andrew Luck's.

[RandyHolt]

Shanahan can start masking the weakness of his defense, by accepting at least one time this year, and letting RG3 try and give his defense a chance to play with a lead. And let Griffin not have to almost always, trot onto the field for the first time, losing. Cold, the fans already demoralized from an early score, after paying to see great RG3.

[maskedsuperstar]

The "franchise QB" tag is mainly BS. Have you ever heard the term applied to a QB of a losing team?

Robert Griffin is the best QB talent I've ever seen, but he isn't going to win without a very good support system: good scheme, good receivers, good O-line, good defense and good special teams.

Thats not totally true. Green Bay went 15-1, with a very sorry defense. And their OL sucks. What team in the NFL has a dominating OL? This team gives up too many big plays. Thats the issue. The Skins OL has given up 21 sacks so far. Thats not bad. I'll take it.

[Bishop Hammer]

[/color]Anyone who grades QBs on Super Bowl wins should switch to watching Soccer. Football isn't their game.

IAWT. Footballs a team sport. A qb can't catch his own passes; run the ball all the time; block for himself. He's part of a unit. And he's not responsible for the defense.

[Darkstarr]

---------- Post added November-15th-2012 at 10:48 AM ----------

[/color]Anyone who grades QBs on Super Bowl wins should switch to watching Soccer. Football isn't their game.

Actually I grade them on playoffs where Eli is 8-3 With 17 tds and 8 picks.

I grade him on when the team had to have it he delivered.

Now I am sorry if coming up money when the team has to have it is not good enough for u.

But give me a money qb in the playoffs over Rivers. Bottem line Eli is turning out to be one of the great qb's. Yeah he fails at times but all qb's do.

[Mania]

Really? Now you are going to make up answers for me? Dude If you are going to be a blowhard, you might want to at least attempt to ground your silly opinions in reality.

Is he *as* great as the others? Maybe not. But Eli *is* a great QB for two reasons. He's not the most athletic QB, he doesn't have the biggest, most accurate arm, but the dude knows the game damn near as well as Payton and he's as cool as ice under pressure.

Mad Mikw,

I may not agree with everything old fan says, but he says it in a clearly thought out way without being a jerk about it. He is allowed an opinion.

[pjfootballer]

Vick's latest injury by concussion happened in the pocket. Just saying.

[HailToTheRedskins14]

Put RG3 at safety.