If Paddleboat Ron leaves, is promoted, or traded at the deadline, who do you want as our next coach?

[Conn]

3 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I guess my point is that Ben Johnson is touted so highly, why wouldn’t the Lions consider keeping him. If you had an unbiased view and both were offered to you as your next HC, who would you pick ?

Pretty bad look if the HC for your franchise needs to look over their shoulder worrying about their own talented lieutenants in the building taking their jobs. Not much of an incentive to hire the absolute best staff and develop them in that case. You really don’t want that sort of cutthroat/backstabbing culture imo. Most guys wouldn’t even accept the job, like McVay saying he wouldn’t have worked here if they tried to fire Gruden to make room for him. 

[clskinsfan]

I wouldnt mind if they talked to Lincoln Riley. He is known as a QB guru. Would be a good thing for Howell. And I love his version of the Air Raid offensive system. He runs a RPO system with air raid route trees. Lots of crosses and one on ones in his offense. It is lethal.

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, Conn said:

Pretty bad look if the HC for your franchise needs to look over their shoulder worrying about their own talented lieutenants in the building taking their jobs. Not much of an incentive to hire the absolute best staff and develop them in that case. You really don’t want that sort of cutthroat/backstabbing culture imo. Most guys wouldn’t even accept the job, like McVay saying he wouldn’t have worked here if they tried to fire Gruden to make room for him. 

Maybe that mindset should change. Is it cutthroat ? It’s not backstabbing at all. Do we think the HC should be untouchable?
 

Shouldn’t every person in a senior position of responsibility/authority look over their shoulder ? The NFL is an elite product. What strives greatness ? In any form of life ?
 

Maybe Terry Mclaurin shouldn’t look over his shoulder at less experienced receivers. Maybe his position is a given. 
 

Complacency is the enemy of progress. Who was it said that?

 

I appreciate it’s an unconventional take. But imagine being a team that lets greater talent leave to conform with the norm. Erm….how many people left this Organisation in recent years…But yeah that’s just the way it works……at least we weren’t cutthroat.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

Maybe that mindset should change. Is it cutthroat ? It’s not backstabbing at all. Do we think the HC should be untouchable?
 

Shouldn’t every person in a senior position of responsibility/authority look over their shoulder ? The NFL is an elite product. What strives greatness ? In any form of life ?
 

Maybe Terry Mclaurin shouldn’t look over his shoulder at less experienced receivers. Maybe his position is a given. 
 

Complacency is the enemy of progress. Who was it said that?

 

I appreciate it’s an unconventional take. But imagine being a team that lets greater talent leave to conform with the norm. Erm….how many people left this Organisation in recent years…But yeah that’s just the way it works……at least we weren’t cutthroat.

You’re not wrong in a rational sense, but I would guess most assistants would not accept the promotion to replace (and displace) the guy who hired them for the same franchise. If they organically got a shot as interim and kept the job after? Maybe. But if the plan from “go” is to fire the HC of a currently successful team (like the Lions) in order to elevate one of his coordinators…that’s generally not gonna fly with most of these guys. It’s a coaching brotherhood where guys rely on those previous relationships, even nepotism, to get future jobs after they’re fired elsewhere. To give their sons and relatives jobs. That’s what I meant by it being seen as a “backstab”. 
 

It would be smart for these franchises in a vacuum, yes. But they don’t exist in a vacuum. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Conn

[illone]

Jim Harbaugh.

 

 

[Stoox]

Based on the strong diverging opinions in this thread, I'm not sure the majority of, let alone the entire fanbase will be happy with whoever they hire to take over as coach this January.

 

• Status quo? Nope, Rivera's treading water at .500, he has to go (which I agree with)
• Promote Bieniemy? Nope, we want change, and besides he's only ever ridden on Andy Reid's coattails
• Raheem Morris? Nope, a defensive guy
• Dan Quinn? Nope, a defensive guy and a Cowboy to boot
• Jim Harbaugh? Nope, too much of a control freak and too hard to get along with
• Bill Belichick? Nope, he will want total control of everything, he's only in it for the all-time record, and he's too old
• Wink Martindale? Nope, defensive guy
• Dave Toub? Nope, not inspiring

 

Sometimes, I wonder if what a percentage of what the fanbase wants is less a good CEO who can manage the entire on-field operation, and more a young hotshot trendy name from the offensive side of the ball who once had lunch with Sean McVay.

 

Keeping in mind, we already went down the "young hotshot offensive coordinator, quarterback's friend" route a few years ago with Jay Gruden.

 

If it's my team, I think continuity matters. Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning worked in the exact same system for 15+ years, which contributed a LOT to their year-over-year success. They not only knew the system backwards and forwards, they owned it after a while. Mahomes has been in the same system for 8 years. Joe Burrow has been in the same system since he entered the league. Meanwhile, #1 picks like Jameis Winston and Baker Mayfield were thrown in too early and yanked around like yo-yos by system and regime changes the first three/four years of their careers.... 

 

On that basis, I would think strongly about Bieniemy - provided the owner and new GM are comfortable working with him. A post in the Fire Ron thread makes a good point about how we are better with EB this year, and Howell is playing better than expected, while KC's offence is not as good as it was the last several years without EB:

 

EB is also not really a Rivera/Panthers guy like most of the rest of the coaching staff - he would bring fire and accountability, and would flip out the rest of the coaching staff except Pritchard, which actually would be tangible change from the last 4 years.

 

PS - which side of the ball a head coach comes from is completely irrelevant. Saying that we need an 'offensive guy' as HC is like saying that the next CEO of a company *has to* come from sales, or operations, or marketing, or HR, or some other department. A good leader is a good leader, period.

 

My $0.02.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Stoox

[Redwards]

1 hour ago, Stoox said:

Based on the strong diverging opinions in this thread, I'm not sure the majority of, let alone the entire fanbase will be happy with whoever they hire to take over as coach this January.

 

• Status quo? Nope, Rivera's treading water at .500, he has to go (which I agree with)
• Promote Bieniemy? Nope, we want change, and besides he's only ever ridden on Andy Reid's coattails
• Raheem Morris? Nope, a defensive guy
• Dan Quinn? Nope, a defensive guy and a Cowboy to boot
• Jim Harbaugh? Nope, too much of a control freak and too hard to get along with
• Bill Belichick? Nope, he will want total control of everything, he's only in it for the all-time record, and he's too old
• Wink Martindale? Nope, defensive guy
• Dave Toub? Nope, not inspiring

 

Sometimes, I wonder if what a percentage of what the fanbase wants is less a good CEO who can manage the entire on-field operation, and more a young hotshot trendy name from the offensive side of the ball who once had lunch with Sean McVay.

 

Keeping in mind, we already went down the "young hotshot offensive coordinator, quarterback's friend" route a few years ago with Jay Gruden.

 

If it's my team, I think continuity matters. Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning worked in the exact same system for 15+ years, which contributed a LOT to their year-over-year success. They not only knew the system backwards and forwards, they owned it after a while. Mahomes has been in the same system for 8 years. Joe Burrow has been in the same system since he entered the league. Meanwhile, #1 picks like Jameis Winston and Baker Mayfield were thrown in too early and yanked around like yo-yos by system and regime changes the first three/four years of their careers.... 

 

On that basis, I would think strongly about Bieniemy - provided the owner and new GM are comfortable working with him. A post in the Fire Ron thread makes a good point about how we are better with EB this year, and Howell is playing better than expected, while KC's offence is not as good as it was the last several years without EB:

 

EB is also not really a Rivera/Panthers guy like most of the rest of the coaching staff - he would bring fire and accountability, and would flip out the rest of the coaching staff except Pritchard, which actually would be tangible change from the last 4 years.

 

PS - which side of the ball a head coach comes from is completely irrelevant. Saying that we need an 'offensive guy' as HC is like saying that the next CEO of a company *has to* come from sales, or operations, or marketing, or HR, or some other department. A good leader is a good leader, period.

 

My $0.02.

You can't get hamstrung by the continuity philosophy.  

 

Yeah, it's great but what Harris needs to do is hire the best damn GM he can find.  THEN...let that GM interview whomever he feels could be a legit great HC.  If EB is one of those guys, great.  If not, no biggie.  It's not like we're an established great team here.  We suck.  We're as middling as ever.  If Howell is truly a franchise QB (something that can't really be proved until he gets another year under his belt, I would think), he won't be set back in any real meaningful way by a change in OC.  He'll adapt like he did this offseason, and be fine.  If Harris' new GM has made the correct hire of a HC, then the incoming new coordinators will be here for a long time, and hence, working with Sam for a long time.  

 

Get the best people to be in control of this team.  Nothing else at this juncture truly matters.  All else will fall into place.  

[Die Hard]

4 hours ago, Stoox said:

Based on the strong diverging opinions in this thread, I'm not sure the majority of, let alone the entire fanbase will be happy with whoever they hire to take over as coach this January.

 

• Status quo? Nope, Rivera's treading water at .500, he has to go (which I agree with)
• Promote Bieniemy? Nope, we want change, and besides he's only ever ridden on Andy Reid's coattails
• Raheem Morris? Nope, a defensive guy
• Dan Quinn? Nope, a defensive guy and a Cowboy to boot
• Jim Harbaugh? Nope, too much of a control freak and too hard to get along with
• Bill Belichick? Nope, he will want total control of everything, he's only in it for the all-time record, and he's too old
• Wink Martindale? Nope, defensive guy
• Dave Toub? Nope, not inspiring

 

Sometimes, I wonder if what a percentage of what the fanbase wants is less a good CEO who can manage the entire on-field operation, and more a young hotshot trendy name from the offensive side of the ball who once had lunch with Sean McVay.

 

Keeping in mind, we already went down the "young hotshot offensive coordinator, quarterback's friend" route a few years ago with Jay Gruden.

 

If it's my team, I think continuity matters. Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning worked in the exact same system for 15+ years, which contributed a LOT to their year-over-year success. They not only knew the system backwards and forwards, they owned it after a while. Mahomes has been in the same system for 8 years. Joe Burrow has been in the same system since he entered the league. Meanwhile, #1 picks like Jameis Winston and Baker Mayfield were thrown in too early and yanked around like yo-yos by system and regime changes the first three/four years of their careers.... 

 

On that basis, I would think strongly about Bieniemy - provided the owner and new GM are comfortable working with him. A post in the Fire Ron thread makes a good point about how we are better with EB this year, and Howell is playing better than expected, while KC's offence is not as good as it was the last several years without EB:

 

EB is also not really a Rivera/Panthers guy like most of the rest of the coaching staff - he would bring fire and accountability, and would flip out the rest of the coaching staff except Pritchard, which actually would be tangible change from the last 4 years.

 

PS - which side of the ball a head coach comes from is completely irrelevant. Saying that we need an 'offensive guy' as HC is like saying that the next CEO of a company *has to* come from sales, or operations, or marketing, or HR, or some other department. A good leader is a good leader, period.

 

My $0.02.

Here’s one of my issues with EB. When he came from KC… he didn’t really bring any of his guys. And he’s had trouble (prolonged hires) filling out a few positions on the offensive side. You’d figure a guy coming there with a brand new offensive overhaul… on a short-term audition… would bring a few guys to help ease the transition. But it’s mostly Rivera leftovers still.

 

It makes me wonder if he’d be able to fill an entire coaching staff with competent coaches.

 

I mean, the guys interviewed 13x in the past few years. Shouldn’t he have a short list of his guys he’d bring over with promotions?

 

Theres some red flags there.

[mh86]

22 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

Here’s one of my issues with EB. When he came from KC… he didn’t really bring any of his guys. And he’s had trouble (prolonged hires) filling out a few positions on the offensive side. You’d figure a guy coming there with a brand new offensive overhaul… on a short-term audition… would bring a few guys to help ease the transition. But it’s mostly Rivera leftovers still.

 

It makes me wonder if he’d be able to fill an entire coaching staff with competent coaches.

 

I mean, the guys interviewed 13x in the past few years. Shouldn’t he have a short list of his guys he’d bring over with promotions?

 

Theres some red flags there.

I agree. However, in his defense it was a hire during ownership change and it had been reported that finances were a bit tied in some areas. 
 

[CTskin]

Ron is well aware his contract is up and that he hasn’t earned an extension… especially with the franchise now under new ownership. There’s nothing cutthroat about it.

 

I hope Josh Harris sees the magic EB is working with the offense (and the lack of magic now in KC) and offers him the job in 2024. Also, it’d be a great benefit for howell to not have to re-learn an offense and go through those growing pains.

 

give EB some semblance of a professional offensive line and the sky’s the limit. I believe the obvious flaws that we’ve all seen in this roster will be immediately addressed in the off-season once Harris has his analytics crew in.

[Stihl89]

59 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

Here’s one of my issues with EB. When he came from KC… he didn’t really bring any of his guys. And he’s had trouble (prolonged hires) filling out a few positions on the offensive side. You’d figure a guy coming there with a brand new offensive overhaul… on a short-term audition… would bring a few guys to help ease the transition. But it’s mostly Rivera leftovers still.

The entire league knows that Ron was a lame duck. Good assistants are leaving for 1 year. No one would do that worth their salt

Edited November 10, 2023 by Stihl89

[Est.1974]

I can’t see EB in any HC role. The guy might prove to be an excellent OC but he’s a liability in front of the media. Rivera isn’t great, but it largely comes across as inept. I think EB is a loose cannon that would potentially draw too much controversy. 

[Dexter]

10 hours ago, Die Hard said:

Here’s one of my issues with EB. When he came from KC… he didn’t really bring any of his guys. And he’s had trouble (prolonged hires) filling out a few positions on the offensive side. You’d figure a guy coming there with a brand new offensive overhaul… on a short-term audition… would bring a few guys to help ease the transition. But it’s mostly Rivera leftovers still.

 

It makes me wonder if he’d be able to fill an entire coaching staff with competent coaches.

 

I mean, the guys interviewed 13x in the past few years. Shouldn’t he have a short list of his guys he’d bring over with promotions?

 

Theres some red flags there.

I think if EB brought in a handful of guys then Ron would have been fired weeks ago.  I think Ron intentionally kept the staff intact for his sake and the players sake. Very hard for Ron to hire someone he doesn't know, much less replacing his Carolina guys with strangers as well.

 

But on the plus side....I think he could still run the offense and still manage the team pretty well as a HC.  I am very hopeful that he gets a chance to step in as interim HC if we fire Ron.  Our defensive side of the ball is less enticing since Sweat and Young are gone, but I think he could piece together decent staff on defense.

[Veretax]

I would hate to lose EB, but I trust Harris to do what he thinks is in the best interest of the team generally.

His first hire might be a flub, there's no way to know, but it can't be worse than Jim Zorn or a retread Shanahan.

What I wondered, is what happens in Dallas if McCarthy Gets fired.  Do they elevate Dan Quinn?  if Quinn is available, do you grab him as a a HC and let EB run the offense?

I know, 'stealing' a dallas coach got us a Norval syndrome, but we've had a hard time with consistency since Norv (minus 2 years of Gibbs).  
 

On 11/3/2023 at 5:39 PM, clskinsfan said:

I wouldnt mind if they talked to Lincoln Riley. He is known as a QB guru. Would be a good thing for Howell. And I love his version of the Air Raid offensive system. He runs a RPO system with air raid route trees. Lots of crosses and one on ones in his offense. It is lethal.

Riley is one of the college guys I keep hearing, but I have not seen how he plays now as coach.  I'm worried this looks like Spurrier 2.0 Just with a lot less Gun and almost no Fun.
 

[Stoox]

21 hours ago, Redwards said:

Yeah, it's great but what Harris needs to do is hire the best damn GM he can find.  THEN...let that GM interview whomever he feels could be a legit great HC.  If EB is one of those guys, great.  If not, no biggie.  

 

Agreed - the new owner and GM both have to comfortable working with EB as HC, after interviewing several (5) other viable candidates to provide comparators. He can't simply be given the job, he has to go through the process. Apologies if I wan't clear enough on that.

 

My worry about not having continuity in the offence next season, is that three different systems in the first three years of any QB's career is often a killer. In other words, Howell's evaluation as the starting QB moving forward would be hamstrung by needing to adapt too much, too early. I think you can do it once, but three different offences right at the beginning of a QB's career is tough to overcome. I can't think of a QB in recent memory who has been able to work through that and succeed, but I could be wrong.

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I can’t see EB in any HC role. The guy might prove to be an excellent OC but he’s a liability in front of the media. Rivera isn’t great, but it largely comes across as inept. I think EB is a loose cannon that would potentially draw too much controversy. 

Eh, I'm not sure I agree.

 

The guy uses a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.  I don't think he's actually said anything all that controversial all year.  Ron and Jack have stuck their foot in their mouth over and over.

 

EB uses his cliches, coach speak, and other platitudes, but he never actually says anything.

 

Not saying he'd be a good HC or not, I have no idea.  I just don't think his media sessions are a reason to judge him.

 

Billy B. uses a lot less words to basically provide the same information..  

18 hours ago, CTskin said:

Ron is well aware his contract is up and that he hasn’t earned an extension… especially with the franchise now under new ownership. There’s nothing cutthroat about it.

 

I hope Josh Harris sees the magic EB is working with the offense (and the lack of magic now in KC) and offers him the job in 2024. Also, it’d be a great benefit for howell to not have to re-learn an offense and go through those growing pains.

 

give EB some semblance of a professional offensive line and the sky’s the limit. I believe the obvious flaws that we’ve all seen in this roster will be immediately addressed in the off-season once Harris has his analytics crew in.

Point of fact, his contract isn't up.  He signed a 5 year deal, this is year 4.

[Voice_of_Reason]

19 hours ago, Die Hard said:

Here’s one of my issues with EB. When he came from KC… he didn’t really bring any of his guys. And he’s had trouble (prolonged hires) filling out a few positions on the offensive side. You’d figure a guy coming there with a brand new offensive overhaul… on a short-term audition… would bring a few guys to help ease the transition. But it’s mostly Rivera leftovers still.

 

It makes me wonder if he’d be able to fill an entire coaching staff with competent coaches.

 

I mean, the guys interviewed 13x in the past few years. Shouldn’t he have a short list of his guys he’d bring over with promotions?

 

Theres some red flags there.

Well, he was hired late, after the SB, because, well, he coached in the SB.  So some of the merry-go-round was already filled.

 

They did pretty immediately bring in a new QB coach, who seems like has done a good job and was the guy EB recommended.  He also dispatched with the old OL coach, but if you remember, they couldn't even name his replacement because of the ownership turmoil. It's impossible to know, but there might have been a moratorium on coaching changes at some point.  

 

One other thing, I'm not sure who he could have grabbed from the Chief's staff as a promotion, and the Chiefs certainly weren't going to let a position coach they liked just do a lateral switch.  He would have had to have hired like the assistant OL coach from KC and promoted them to OL coach.  

 

Whether he could fill out a competent coaching staff or not, I don't know.  But I do think you need to look at context for the last off-season. 

[Die Hard]

47 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Well, he was hired late, after the SB, because, well, he coached in the SB.  So some of the merry-go-round was already filled.

 

They did pretty immediately bring in a new QB coach, who seems like has done a good job and was the guy EB recommended.  He also dispatched with the old OL coach, but if you remember, they couldn't even name his replacement because of the ownership turmoil. It's impossible to know, but there might have been a moratorium on coaching changes at some point.  

 

One other thing, I'm not sure who he could have grabbed from the Chief's staff as a promotion, and the Chiefs certainly weren't going to let a position coach they liked just do a lateral switch.  He would have had to have hired like the assistant OL coach from KC and promoted them to OL coach.  

 

Whether he could fill out a competent coaching staff or not, I don't know.  But I do think you need to look at context for the last off-season. 

I understand there is context.

 

But if I’m EB, I don’t take this opportunity unless I feel confident I can succeed. This was/is litmus test for a coach who has interviewed him over a dozen times. And this was his chance to get out from under Reid’s shadow. His future is hanging in the balance. And in a suboptimal condition.

 

He had to revamp the entire offence in 1 off-season - potential lame duck coach - with a rookie QB. 
 

Just crazy to come in here without his own staff.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

I understand there is context.

 

But if I’m EB, I don’t take this opportunity unless I feel confident I can succeed. This was/is litmus test for a coach who has interviewed him over a dozen times. And this was his chance to get out from under Reid’s shadow. His future is hanging in the balance. And in a suboptimal condition.

 

He had to revamp the entire offence in 1 off-season - potential lame duck coach - with a rookie QB. 
 

Just crazy to come in here without his own staff.

Coordinators don’t get to hire their entire staff.  The HC basically sets the staff.  The coordinator has input.  
 

I think he made 2 immediate changes: OL coach and QB coach.  
 

There are only 3 other position coaches on offense, WR, RB and TE.  
 

He effected the 2 which mattered most.  
 

He might have had others he wanted and couldn’t get.  
 

There’s a lot to pick at, I’m not sure there’s anything really here.  

[Die Hard]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Coordinators don’t get to hire their entire staff.  The HC basically sets the staff.  The coordinator has input.  
 

I think he made 2 immediate changes: OL coach and QB coach.  
 

There are only 3 other position coaches on offense, WR, RB and TE.  
 

He effected the 2 which mattered most.  
 

He might have had others he wanted and couldn’t get.  
 

There’s a lot to pick at, I’m not sure there’s anything really here.  

Matko retired. Traveller Wharton was a holdover of staff…. and a previous Panther.

 

So he brought a QB coach. That’s it. 
 

And that’s worrisome.

 

But whatever. Time will reveal it all.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

25 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

Matko retired. Traveller Wharton was a holdover of staff…. and a previous Panther.

 

So he brought a QB coach. That’s it. 
 

And that’s worrisome.

 

But whatever. Time will reveal it all.

 

 

Matsko was fired.  For philosophical differences.  
 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/commanders-fire-offensive-line-coach-john-matsko

[88Comrade2000]

21 hours ago, CTskin said:

Ron is well aware his contract is up and that he hasn’t earned an extension… especially with the franchise now under new ownership. There’s nothing cutthroat about it.

 

I hope Josh Harris sees the magic EB is working with the offense (and the lack of magic now in KC) and offers him the job in 2024. Also, it’d be a great benefit for howell to not have to re-learn an offense and go through those growing pains.

 

give EB some semblance of a professional offensive line and the sky’s the limit. I believe the obvious flaws that we’ve all seen in this roster will be immediately addressed in the off-season once Harris has his analytics crew in.

No.

 

You hire the Gm and interview multiple candidates. You can add EB to the list of interviews but pick the best after interviewing several candidates. Don’t repeat the Snyder mistake of locking in on one guy.

[actorguy1]

I predict that Ron will get a contract extension....as an advisor in the new front office. I think this is already in the works.

[clskinsfan]

11 hours ago, Veretax said:

I'm worried this looks like Spurrier 2.0 Just with a lot less Gun and almost no Fun.

Nah. He is an elite offensive mind compare to Spurrier. 

[klwilkins1977]

1.) Jim Harbaugh

2.) Belichick (with a GM)

3.) Bienemy (set up with very senior DC the way McVay was set up with Phillips with the Rams)

4.) Kirby Smart

5.) Brian Johnson