Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Barry.Randolphe]

Biden's approval ratings are dropping because of the way they're handling this - I've lost a lot of respect for the administration too. Rubber stamping genocide at this point is just not a good look...apparently Israel just invaded Gaza, so no telling what happens next since the internet has been cut.

 

 

 

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

41 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

Biden's approval ratings are dropping because of the way they're handling this - I've lost a lot of respect for the administration too. Rubber stamping genocide at this point is just not a good look...apparently Israel just invaded Gaza, so no telling what happens next since the internet has been cut.

 

 

 

 

The headline you provided contradicts your assertion that Biden rubber stamped anything. Also the more Palestinians and their supporters talk the less and less I believe they don’t actively support Hamas. 

[China]

Northern Gaza reduced to rubble: Satellite images show before and after air strikes

 

Israeli air strikes have flattened entire neighbourhoods in northern Gaza. Whole rows of apartment blocks simply disappear in satellite images revealed by space technology company Maxar.

 

Three weeks after the bombardment by Israeli forces, space technology company Maxar has released satellite images showing the extent of the destruction in Gaza.

 

The Palestinian death toll has risen to over 7,000 as Israel unleashes waves of devastating air strikes in response to a bloody Hamas incursion on 7 October that killed 1,400 people and took 200 hostages.

 

The air strikes have flattened entire neighbourhoods, causing a level of death and destruction not seen in the last four wars between Israel and Hamas.

 

 

Click on the link for before and after images

[Larry]

11 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

If Israel pursued an actual path to a viable two state solution, would Hamas do this again?

 

Or did Hamas do this because they saw any chance of a 2 state solution dying (with the Saudis and Israelis coming closer to peace)?

 

My money would be on "Yes, Hamas attacks would continue".  

 

As we've seen, even domestically, that level of fanaticism doesn't just switch off. 

 

And I'm saying that as one of the few people in this thread stating that no solution other than two state can possibly work. 

 

Which is why I keep suggesting it. Even knowing that it won't stop the terrorism. (At least not for decades)  

[Larry]

4 hours ago, Destino said:

israel has done this, they have sought two state solutions repeatedly. Hamas has refused to even acknowledge israel as legitimate, which is rather important when seeking to negotiate agreements

 

Pretty sure Israel's position for decades has been " we will not even agree to start negotiations until you retroactively recognize every settlement we've built in your (we won't call it a "country").

[Fergasun]

This is from the United States House of Representatives Floor: 

Quote

We should also bear in mind the condition of the Arab countries which persist in defying the United Nations and, indeed, the civilized world. The total population of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, and Transjordan is about 34,000,000. The total square miles occupied are 1,189,804. Compare this with 700,000 Jews in 5,500 square miles of partitioned Palestine. Who is the threat to the peace? Contrast the enlightenment, education, and economic progress the Jews have brought into the Arab world with the following record. Saudi Arabia and Yemen are absolute monarchies with the King holding the power of life and death over all his subjects. In Saudi Arabia slavery is recognized by law; In Egypt and Iraq, it is reported that about 85 percent of the men and well over 90 percent of the women are illiterate, and the infant mortality is 50 percent or higher. And even in the most advanced Arab country, Lebanon, 56 percent of the men and 77 percent of the women are illiterate. In the Arab countries, feudal landlords control the peasant in feudal ways, and types of diseasu which have been much reduced or have disappeared from westernized countries are rife. 

...

Quote

It is time that the United States again declared to the Arab nations that we expect cooperation-that they have undertaken to give it under the United Nations Charter-and that we shall insist that they account before the Security Council for harboring Arab guerrillas conspiring to defeat the UN decision-we did no less in the matter of the Balkan Border Watch Commission regarding the guerrillas in northern Greece. 

...
 

Quote

Finally, oil-I think it is high time, while we consider the European recovery program, to find out if and to what ex-tent the oil reserves of the Middle East are and will be available for our national security, and if and to what extent the operations of American oil companies are helping or hindering American foreign policy. I appreciate fully their delicate position but I do not see why they should be on the defensive. I should think, for example, that the oil companies might be considering how they could curtail their payments to the Arab nations, with our support, so long as these nations flout the United Nations, rather than . what measures they can take to please Arab rulers threatening them with retaliation for the United States vote on the Palestine question. 

The United States House floor on January 27, 1948 - Jacob Javits (can be found on the bound Congressional record, page 590).  

 

Continue commenting 

[PeterMP]

  

7 hours ago, Destino said:

there’s no reason to believe they would behave other than they have for decades.

 

 

israel has done this, they have sought two state solutions repeatedly. Hamas has refused to even acknowledge israel as legitimate, which is rather important when seeking to negotiate agreements,

.  

 

there’s no reason I’ve found to think Hamas is a great supporter of a two state solution. The most I’ve read of them offering, is a temporary ceasefire in exchange for a return to the 1967 borders. While continuing to state that their goal is to eliminate the state of Israel.

 

 

again there’s no reason to conclude that Hamas is part of a two state solution. There’s a much stronger argument to be made, one that would use hamas’ own stated goals and positions, that Hamas is a major hinderance to a two state solution. You could also look at how many attempts at peace were made, and how far they got, before Hamas versus the last 16 years. 

 

I agree Israel would have to surrender something. They have no reason to do so however, so long as the other side of the table can only promise a temporary ceasefire. Especially when you consider the reason it just only be temporary is because they ultimately plan on destroying the state of Israel, which they state openly.

 

the reason for a hamas surrender is not to negotiate a deal, it’s to stop the current war. This is what leaders must do when they’ve failed and their people are dying. It’s also a position from which we’ve seen peace arise before, certainly a stronger starting point than terrorists promising to do it all over again. 

 

When has Israel pursued a viable two state solution?  I can't speak to what was happening back in the 1950s and 60s, but it has been at least decades (if ever).  Netanyahu has stated the only way he sees a two state solution is if the Palestinian state is if it doesn't have a military, defense system, or a security system.  Which means they won't be able to prevent terrorist from using their territory to attack Israel.  Israel will respond then and attack terrorists camps in said country (and will end up killing innocent people in the process).  The result will be a failed state.

 

And much less their words, their actions matter.  It is largely acknowledged that that Oslo accords failed because the Isrealis never actually cared.  They were used to cover continued settlement building.  Israel has consistently and systematically tightened their control and claim on territory in the occupied territories for decades now which is not at all consistent with a two state solution that includes a viable Palestinian state. (Honestly, the PLO probably didn't care either.  By that time, they mostly cared about raking in the money.)

 

Hamas is not part of the solution only if you ignore the history of other similar organizations.  As an example, the IRAs stated goal was the removal of the British from Ireland and the unification of Ireland as an independent county.  They ended up settling for much less.  Hamas might not.  I don't know.  What I do know is at least for the foreseeable future, it is really hard to see a process that actually achieves peace that doesn't include Hamas.

 

I have no idea where you get the idea that leader surrender when their people are being killed.  Wars of attritions where the losing side loses many more lives are nothing new.

 

In Vietnam, only about 60,000 Americans died.  Over a 1,000,000 North Vietnamese and VC were killed.  Ho Chi Minh didn't surrender, and they won.  Militarily the Tet Offensive was a failure for the VC/N. Vietnamese, but it is largely considered a key point in the US withdraw.

 

About 6,000 Americans died in Afghanistan.  The thought is that about 50,000 Taliban fighters were killed and another 50,000 Afghani citizens (in total so both sides).  The Taliban didn't surrender and is largely considered to have won.

 

Many more Japanese died in WWII in the Pacific than the allies and while ally death tolls of invading the home islands was expected to be high, Japanese deaths were expected to be higher.  Yes in the end Japan surrenders but they surrender because they got pretty favorable terms.  And much better than what the US was asking for originally.

 

(I'll also point out early in the American Revolution, US deaths were extremely high.  When Washington wintered in Valley Forge he knew his men were under clothed, under fed, didn't have enough medical care, and quite a few of them were going to die.  He was also leaving a large swath of the country undefended for the British to kill pretty much anybody they wanted.  But today we celebrate him for not surrendering.)

 

Is that just something you think should happen?  Because it has no basis in reality.

Edited October 28, 2023 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Larry said:

 

My money would be on "Yes, Hamas attacks would continue".  

 

As we've seen, even domestically, that level of fanaticism doesn't just switch off. 

 

And I'm saying that as one of the few people in this thread stating that no solution other than two state can possibly work. 

 

Which is why I keep suggesting it. Even knowing that it won't stop the terrorism. (At least not for decades)  

 

Even after the IRA and the British came to an agreement, there were more militant members of the IRA that tried to keep going.  But they lost public support.

 

There are part of this that are religious in nature.  There are Jews that want to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount (and I can't find a poll for that but I'd guess in Israel that numbers at least 10%).  And Muslims are at least as committed to keeping The Dome and Al-Aqsa Mosque on that same piece of land.

 

There was a religious component to IRA/British fight, but it was over actual holy land.

 

You have to hope that enough Palestinians are willing to put their religious beliefs somewhat aside for a viable state.  The Saudis seem to be willing to let some of their Islamic fanaticism slide in order to try and assure themselves economically and in the global power structure in the future in a world where oil might not be as important.

 

If enough Palestinians are willing to do the same for a viable state, then Hamas will lose public support and dealing with the more extreme elements becomes feasible.

 

I've said in this thread, I don't think this is ending any time soon.  I don't think it is ending with the occupied territories, Gaza, and the West Bank.  Next are Jordan and Lebanon.

 

I think there are enough Israelis Jews that believe in a Old Testament God Promised Land to influence and steer Israeli foreign policy (though this is also something else I can't find a poll on).

Edited October 28, 2023 by PeterMP

[@DCGoldPants]

This whole thing reminds me of the story of King Solomon, the two women, and splitting the baby. Only difference is that nobody is going to give up on this chunk of land with history and ancient structures.

 

I sit here an Ashkenazi Jew who has never been to Israeli when everyone else in my immediate family has. I've passed on every opportunity because I never felt any connection historically, spiritually, or in any other way to Israel. But I read the news and history of about 75 years since Israel was refounded, or whatever you want to call it, and there isn't a solution. Even if today, everyone decided to stop for now. Hostages were given back, and the IDF pulled out of Gaza. The clock just resets until it starts again. These cultures can never exist as neighbors. And on top of that, as a lot of us have said before. The Palestinians AND Hamas are just being used as tools by other peoples who believe as part of their culture that they must destroy the Jewish people. Jordan doesn't really want the Palestinians. They treat them as 3rd class citizens. It's not that they feel in their hearts that the Palestinians should have all the land that is called Israel. If they did, Jordan or Lebanon or Egypt would be attacking the Palestinians for control of that land. 

 

Today, "by the will of God" (Insha'Allah), (I'm not wishing this, just saying if God desired it), an earthquake along the Mediterranean and Gaza Strip could happen, running endless seawater in flooding all their tunnels of 70+ years and collapsing the land. Then, another Earthquake that slowly leads to Jerusalem to sink deep into the earth and making that entire part of the middle east inhabitable for humans to live in. Basically, going back to Solomon's Judgement and taking it all away from everyone. Know what would happen? They'd fight over the hole in the earth that nobody can live in. There is no oil, gold, much fresh water. 

 

The Holy Land still existing is the worst thing that could happen to these people. Nobody is going to win. Everybody is going to lose. 

 

 

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, @DCGoldPants said:

The Palestinians AND Hamas are just being used as tools by other peoples who believe as part of their culture that they must destroy the Jewish people. Jordan doesn't really want the Palestinians. They treat them as 3rd class citizens. It's not that they feel in their hearts that the Palestinians should have all the land that is called Israel. If they did, Jordan or Lebanon or Egypt would be attacking the Palestinians for control of that land. 

 

Calling out Jordan seems especially odd as they've been one of the most welcoming countries to Palestinians (despite a bad history with them).  Jordan was allowing a lot of Palestinians to just live in Jordan until the Palestinians tried to over throw the government.  The Jordanian kingdom fought a war against Palestinians (PLO).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

 

Despite that, Jordan is one of the few countries in the world where there is a path to citizenship for Palestinians and I think still likely have the largest population of Palestinian immigrants living it.  And Jordan is a pretty small and poor country on its own.

 

I've made this point before, but this part just doesn't jive with reality over the last few decades.  This might have been true back in the 50s, 60, 70s, and 80s, but does not appear to be true now.  Egypt now has multi-decade peace agreement in place with Israel.  The Saudis were getting close to signing a historic peace deal with Israel before this broke out.   That's not really consistent with people acting on a belief that they need to destroy Israel and are using the Palestinians to do so.

 

Not really of their own fault, Palestinians tend to be poor, uneducated, and low skilled.  Not many countries in the world want a lot of immigrants with that profile.  Add on, many of the countries in the area (Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc.) themselves are pretty poor and don't really have the ability to support poor immigrants.  Plus you have historical issues for countries that take on a lot of Palestinians (i.e. the war in Jordan).

 

Some people are acting like things that happened decades ago are driving current policy among Middle Eastern governments.  It would be like behaving as if our foreign policy in the Asia was being guided by the domino theory.

 

The last sentence I quoted doesn't make much sense to me.  Did you mean they'd be attacking Israel?  Why?  They tried that and they failed.  They know with western support for Israel they can not defeat Israel in a war.  That's also like saying we don't care about Ukraine because we haven't attacked Russia.

 

We've also limited how many Ukrainians can come here.  There are Ukrainians that are travelling to Mexico, and then from there trying to get asylum in the US because we've limited how many can directly come here.  I don't think that should be taken as evidence that we don't care about Ukraine.  And really, even if we would take every Ukrainian, that isn't what they want.  They want a Ukraine.

 

A lot of Palestinians want to leave, but many don't.  They want a Palestine.  Because of their history and things like they are Muslim, mostly poor, uneducated, and unskilled, not many countries want them.  And to be like that the other Muslim countries in the area don't care about them (especially the poor ones like Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt) don't care about them because they don't take them isn't at all reasonable.

[TradeTheBeal!]

The value of Gazans to their Arab neighbors is that they can use them as a cudgel against Israel, while signing politically and economically beneficial Treaties/agreements with the West.  They get to have their cake and eat it too while Gazans get repeatedly demolished…which is then blamed on the great evil Israel/The West.

 

Lather, rinse and repeat ad nauseum.  It’s the perfect crime.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by TradeTheBeal!

[TradeTheBeal!]

Same as it ever was.

[@DCGoldPants]

51 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

The last sentence I quoted doesn't make much sense to me.  Did you mean they'd be attacking Israel?  Why? 

 

I mean that if all of Israel was run by Palestinians and called Palestine right now. They would have been attacked and marginalized by an Arab nation wanting to control Jerusalem. Arabs abusing Arabs is nothing new in that region. 

 

Those other countries don't want them to come there either for refuge or forever because they don't want Hamas attacking them and their control.

 

Again, there isn't a solution here. 

[PeterMP]

45 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

The value of Gazans to their Arab neighbors is that they can use them as a cudgel against Israel, while signing politically and economically beneficial Treaties/agreements with the West.  They get to have their cake and eat it too while Gazans get repeatedly demolished…which is then blamed on the great evil Israel/The West.

 

Lather, rinse and repeat ad nauseum.  It’s the perfect crime.

 

 

 

What is the benefit?

 

What benefit do they get from blaming the Israel/The West for things when they are signing agreements that benefit them with the west?

 

Do you think their populaces are so stupid that they don't see the hypocrisy or care about it?  That the leaderships aren't actually putting themselves in precarious situation with respect to the anger of their own populations?

 

Or maybe like everybody in the world they have competing interest.  They like ensuring their own long term economic success.  They want their country and themselves to be economically successful.  They also care about the Palestinians and would like to see the general instability in the area caused by the conflict diminished.  Which creating 2 states might help.  To be economically successful, they have to part of the global/western economy which means also having relatively good relationships with Israel.

Edited October 28, 2023 by PeterMP

[@DCGoldPants]

Just now, PeterMP said:

What is the benefit?

 

What benefit do they get from blaming the Israel/The West for things when they are signing agreements that benefit them with the west?

 

It's how they stay in power, keep the support of the most religious in their countries who believe that God wants them to kill Jews and destroy Israel, and it points terrorists who would be terrorizing someone at a target that isn't themselves. Going at Jews is tried and tested........ and works when their own power could be taken away by fanatics in their countries. That's the benefit. 

[PeterMP]

28 minutes ago, @DCGoldPants said:

 

I mean that if all of Israel was run by Palestinians and called Palestine right now. They would have been attacked and marginalized by an Arab nation wanting to control Jerusalem. Arabs abusing Arabs is nothing new in that region. 

 

Those other countries don't want them to come there either for refuge or forever because they don't want Hamas attacking them and their control.

 

Again, there isn't a solution here. 

 

Why do you think that Arab states would attack a Palestinian Arab state over control of Jerusalem?

 

I don't think there is much of a history of Arabs attacking Arabs for control of Jerusalem.  That they'd start now when it isn't something that has happened historically doesn't seem reasonable.

 

And looking at other religious sites, there aren't a lot of actual overt wars over them, especially if they are kept relatively accessible for pilgrimage.  Nobody is attacking the Saudis for control over Medina.

22 minutes ago, @DCGoldPants said:

 

It's how they stay in power, keep the support of the most religious in their countries who believe that God wants them to kill Jews and destroy Israel, and it points terrorists who would be terrorizing someone at a target that isn't themselves. Going at Jews is tried and tested........ and works when their own power could be taken away by fanatics in their countries. That's the benefit. 

 

What do you mean be going at Jews?  It has been over half a century since a Muslim country attacked Israel.  No Arab country is going at Jews.

 

So you think the fanatics in their own country don't care if they sign peace deals with Israel as long as they say mean things about them occasionally?

 

I think you guys think about the Arab world that existed 40 years ago.

 

Every Arab country in the area benefits if the situation is settled in a manner that is desirable to the majority of Palestinians because it means extremist will lose public support.  And polls show the majority of Palestinians would support a 2 state solution if they get a state that is viable.

 

Jordan fought a war against extremist BECAUSE there is no Palestinian state.  The situation is creating extremists that yes then the Arab states in the area have to deal with.  The solution for Arab states is to see the situation reasonably resolved.

Edited October 28, 2023 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

And let's be clear, the last Israeli Prime Minister that tried to do anything resembling having even a plan for peace was called an enemy of his people by the political right in Israel and assassinated.

 

And he wasn't even calling for or stopping the settlements in the occupied territories.

Edited October 28, 2023 by PeterMP

[@DCGoldPants]

14 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Why do you think that Arab states would attack a Palestinian Arab state over control of Jerusalem?

 

I don't think there is much of a history of Arabs attacking Arabs for control of Jerusalem.  That they'd start now when it isn't something that has happened historically doesn't seem reasonable.

 

And looking at other religious sites, there aren't a lot of actual overt wars over them, especially if they are kept relatively accessible for pilgrimage.  Nobody is attacking the Saudis for control over Medina.

 

What do you mean be going at Jews?  It has been over half a century since a Muslim country attacked Israel.  No Arab country is going at Jews.

 

So you think the fanatics in their own country don't care if they sign peace deals with Israel as long as they say mean things about them occasionally?

 

I think you guys think about the Arab world that existed 40 years ago.

 

Every Arab country in the area benefits if the situation is settled in a manner that is desirable to the majority of Palestinians because it means extremist will lose public support.  And polls show the majority of Palestinians would support a 2 state solution if they get a state that is viable.

 

Jordan fault a war against extremist BECAUSE there is no Palestinian state.  The situation is creating extremists that yes then the Arab states in the area have to deal with.  The solution for Arab states is to see the situation reasonably resolved.

I don't know how else to explain it where you won't come back and ask "why do you think?" The regions history is filled with different sects unable to coexist and only being a nation under a dictatorship/royal family. 

 

I'll just say we aren't seeing this the same way and leave it at that. 

 

 

[PeterMP]

Just now, @DCGoldPants said:

I don't know how else to explain it where you won't come back and ask "why do you think?" The regions history is filled with different sects unable to coexist and only being a nation under a dictatorship/royal family. 

 

I'll just say we aren't seeing this the same way and leave it at that. 

 

Religious sects in every religion have a history of fighting.  And if you extend dictatorship/royal family to include democratic governments, it describes the Christianity and the US today.

 

But that doesn't mean the nations have a history of fighting over religious sites which was the claim.

 

[Fergasun]

Peace will only be achieved If both sides enforced a policy of "leave the other side alone" and "crack down hard on people who don't."  I don't even know which government structure or mechanism can crack down on Hamas in Palestine.  They are pretty much militant Islamists who want to wipe out Israel -- there is a very evident thread of antisemitism among many Islamists or Arabs.  In a typical nation-state, the terrrorists are distinct from the government.  

 

On the Israel side -- there are very evident threads of anti-Arab predjudice.  I just learned today that Israel laws forbid full naturalization/immigration rights to Palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens.  This is all easy for us to theorhetically solve from the "melting pot" distance of America.  But we don't dare talk about Jewish right-wing ideas of domination over Palestinians, based on theological and racist perceptions of Jewish privilege.

 

I also hear people say, "Why don't Palestinians go to Egypt or Jordan or other countries."  Pushing the Palestinians out of Gaza is not a solution either and I think most Arabs would view that as a slap in the face.   They won't ever get that land back (Gaza) if they leave.

 

We need to recognize that war, violence and terror is going to be futile.  So what will be enough for Israel to think they have "destroyed Hamas"?  Are they going to carpet bomb and destroy entire neighborhoods?  

[Cooked Crack]

 

[The Sisko]

And by “Never again” Netanyahu means him leaving office.

[Renegade7]

I remember when we said "never again" and almost immediately invaded another country as well...then another...then airstrikes on multiple continents.

 

I'm not sure what Israel plans to do after they push Hamas into the sea.  Double Down Occupation of Gaza?. US calling them out because they don't know...exactly how wars get longer then they should because it's not clear what to do after, which has impact on when to call the war or object of it over.

 

What mission accomplished here?  Eliminate Hamas?  Not prevent them from coming back or addressing what lead to them doing the 10/7 attacks in the 1st place?  This fells like the type of trap Israel wants to fall into, it's not like going to war with Palestinian terrorist groups is unpopular in their government.  This is closer to full annexation then two state solution.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

This and Ukraine probably don’t end till the world order is reset.

Edited October 28, 2023 by CousinsCowgirl84

[PokerPacker]

20 hours ago, Larry said:

 

My money would be on "Yes, Hamas attacks would continue".  

 

As we've seen, even domestically, that level of fanaticism doesn't just switch off. 

 

And I'm saying that as one of the few people in this thread stating that no solution other than two state can possibly work. 

 

Which is why I keep suggesting it. Even knowing that it won't stop the terrorism. (At least not for decades)  

On the other hand, I bet Hamas' recruiting pitch becomes a lot more difficult when Palestinians aren't living in an apartheid state.