2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

All of the things I am reading about stingers say they are a relatively mild injury and can be dealt with in a few days if not 10 or 15 minutes.  It's been 3 weeks. Something doesn't add up here.

Its always something with this team when it comes to injuries

[wit33]

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That's cool.  But for Logan Paulsen specifically he was drinking the Kool Aide for weeks.  Nothing new from him.

 

Outside of him, the most enthusiastic seems to be Finlay.  He likes this interior but not the tackles.  

 

Keim is concerned about the O line.  But agrees with Paulsen that they've showed up at times as a run blocking unit.  He hasn't loved the pass blocking and blocking on screens.

 

The others mostly say they are concerned but they don't elaborate much about their concern. 

 

Personally, my guess, is the same as before camp.  I've been consistent on this.  I don't agree with some of the national pundits who see this as a 30-32nd ranked O line.  To me it feels like 25.

 

I've posted a lot about the subject so it might come like I think it will be a disaster based on my volume of posting.  But my point isn't really over the top.  Maybe the volume on it because I respond to whomever pushes back.  But my point itself I don't think is that aggressive.   I think its a 25 type ranked unit.  I don't think the O line will be a disaster and said so many times.  I think it will range from so so to bad depending on the game. 

 

To me Brandon Thon sums up the point perfectly about O line.  Average O lineman tend to get beat by good D lineman.  Average O lineman tend to do fine against average to below average D lineman.  It's about the matchups.  So my guess is when they play meh D lines, which are basically half the schedule, the O line will hold up.  When they play the good D lines they don't hold up.  Simple as that.  I do think Bieiniemy schemes will help.  But I don't think you can completely scheme around a poor O line unit.  At some points in the game they will be exposed.

 

I joke about the SB because I like the rest of the roster so if the O line situation is more on the sunny side like Paulsen expects, I think they will go far.

 

What are the discernible differences between a 25th and 14th rated Oline?

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

All of the things I am reading about stingers say they are a relatively mild injury and can be dealt with in a few days if not 10 or 15 minutes.  It's been 3 weeks. Something doesn't add up here.

 

It's sort of what Finaly suggested or sheehan, forgetting which one made the point.

 

Finlay said he texd with someone (presume its with the team) who guessed Chase would play game 2 or game 3.

 

 

Just now, wit33 said:

 

 

What are the discernible differences between a 25th and 14th rated Oline?

 

14?  Is that same random number versus 25? 

 

Are you suggesting its the same thing or want me to explain the difference?

 

 

[wit33]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

14?  Is that same random number versus 25? 

 

Are you suggesting its the same thing or want me to explain the difference?

 

 

Dislike rankings in most cases (tiers are a little better IMO), so I own that bias, but open to receiving information about what you think the difference is. I do own believing 90% of the NFL will struggle at Oline, the scheme, QB, and a few bounces go your way are the ways to mask it. And… having a dual threat QB/offense helps the Oline mightily. 
 

Also, What ranking do you think Washington must achieve for you to be okay with the Oline? 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

46 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’m mostly with you here.  I do think Bienemy’s scheme can help a whole lot - quick passes, but also the ability for guys to chip in part because they’re running shorter routes.  And I think Howell’s mobility will help, as well as our receivers ability to separate quickly.  There will definitely be times the oline gets exposed though.  The trick IMO is going to be in minimizing those times, minimizing the impact (Howell escaping, not throwing picks due to pressure, and not fumbling on a sack), and then making up for negative impacts (holding calls, sacks, etc).

 

I’m extremely optimistic about Howell (and Bienemy’s scheme), but three real concerns I have from him - holding the ball too long, sometimes moving into sacks, and sometimes not playing it safe when running - are all things that could be seriously magnified by sub par oline play.  That’s not great.

 

And, as you mentioned, the screen game is a serious worry for me.  That tool was legitimately broken last year, yet Turner kept pulling it out of the toolbox.  Here’s hoping it’s something that can improve as oline cohesion (and time in the system for all) grows.  We seem to be at least a bit more athletic on the line this year… so there’s some hope anyway.

 

Yeah for me my angst about the O line is driven by three things.

 

A.  I like the rest of the roster so much why leave that hole on the boat to sink it in spite of so many cool features cooking on the boat.

 

B.  I don't think Ron is stupid.  So i don't get why he didn't finish the job?  He could of IMO had a really good season if he patched up the hole on the boat.

 

c.  If this season ends up 8-9ish do they hold the fan base which is back in force right now?

 

But yeah in general I don't expect this team to suck like most of the national media does.  If this was season 2 under Ron, I wouldn't give a rats behind about the O line being unfinished.  But year 4 feels win now.  And I've had Ron's back and big time so leading up to this figuring he will vindicate me with a Carpe Diem off season and for my taste he didn't do it.

 

But do I think the O line is a jailbreak week in and week out?  Nope.  But I think the difference is every team in this division has a really good D line.  But Dallas and the Eagles have the horses on the O line to hold off potentially a big time D line.  We I do not think have that.  So for me I just think the O line will burn us in some spots in big games -- similar to the Giants matchups last year that will in turn cost us the playoffs. 

 

But I don't expect the O line to be a disaster every week and even the bad games will be unlikely awful.  It's just that when Dexter Lawerence, Parsons, Reddick or name a bunch of other good D lineman in the division need to make a big play in an obvious passing down with the game on the line -- they likely will make those plays.  Similar to what Thibideaux did to Leno last year in big spots.

 

This is assuming that am right and this O line is 25 or so in the league.  That means ranging from so so to bad depending on the game.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Dislike rankings in most cases (tiers are a little better IMO), so I own that bias, but open to receiving information about what you think the difference is. I do own believing 90% of the NFL will struggle at Oline, the scheme, QB, and a few bounces go your way are the ways to mask it. And… having a dual threat QB/offense helps the Oline mightily. 
 

Also, What ranking do you think Washington must achieve for you to be okay with the Oline? 

 

 

I'll start with a want a good O line.  I want it to be a strength not what can we hopefully just get by with.   I want to be like the Eagles-Chiefs-Ravens-Dallas.  I don't look at those teams like they are fools for emphasizing the position.  If you want to go old school win in the trenches, its both sides of the ball not just the D line.  This fan base above all should feel that point.

 

But if we are setting the bar low.  I'd want average.  14-18 range.

 

Most national outfits-analytics groups put this O line somewhere in the 32-27 range.  Lets say I'll characterize that category as sucks.

 

As for what I predict with this O line.  25.  I put that in the bad category.  Lets say 23-26.    

 

19-22 below average

14-18 average.

 

Things aren't a straight line in the NFL.  So as I've said to death on many posts, I think the O line will hold up fine in plenty of games.  But I do not think its good enough to hold off against some of the big boy teams in big moments and that IMO will likely cost them the playoffs. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

I could see the OL struggling early with vicious fronts like Buffalo and Philly, but gelling as the season goes on and eventually stabilizing around November ish.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think to start the season the line will look better than last year, for sure. No Heini/Wentz holding it too long, being afraid to leave the pocket, better play calls from EB who understand our limitations. So, I think it'll be better than last year to start, but there are some bully DLs we face and I think some of them are going to completely expose our weaknesses and frustrate the offense to the point of it being completely shut down. I also think it'll get worse as the season goes on and we lose/move guys around.

 

I expect the same I am predicting a strong start, weak finish.

 

We talk about winning games we shouldn't and losing games we should win.  Happens to every team every season.  If I had to pick an upset win, it might be against the Bills.  Josh Allen can be so erratic and sometimes that comes with weak starts.  

[Koolblue13]

35 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

What are the discernible differences between a 25th and 14th rated Oline?

14th ranked lines go to the playoffs. 

 

25th ranked ones draft high.

 

That work for tiers?

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I could see the OL struggling early with vicious fronts like Buffalo and Philly, but gelling as the season goes on and eventually stabilizing around November ish.

 

I get the idea that they get better as they go deeper in the season.  In theory that makes sense.  But the weaker D fronts come earlier in the season versus later if I recall.  So they might have their better games early even though their chemistry should be better later on.

 

Logan Paulsen likes to make the case that maybe individually this O line doesn't look that hot but the sum of the whole will be greater than its parts -- meaning the chemistry of the O line will be their strength.  It's sort of an odd point to make IMO for a unit with 4 new players playing different spots from last season.  Keim cited the unit's chemistry as his concern because of the newness of the unit and he hopes for it to improve over time.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I expect the same I am predicting a strong start, weak finish.

 

We talk about winning games we shouldn't and losing games we should win.  Happens to every team every season.  If I had to pick an upset win, it might be against the Bills.  Josh Allen can be so erratic and sometimes that comes with weak starts.  

Bills I could see us stealing despite our offense struggling, but its the Eagles the next week.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

Bills I could see us stealing despite our offense struggling, but its the Eagles the next week.

 

I think the Eagles are going to smoke this team.

 

I know some here think enough with the O line stuff.  But the funny thing was Greg Cosell who does a podcast with Tucker did a summary of the division.  And Cosell more than most is high on some players on this roster.  But when he was asked about the Commanders threatening the Eagles, all he did was run through the names of the Eagles D line versus this O line.  That's it.  And said the Eagles have nothing to worry about.

 

 

[DWinzit]

Draft a LB and OT ^^^^

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think the Eagles are going to smoke this team.

 

I know some here think enough with the O line stuff.  But the funny thing was Greg Cosell who does a podcast with Tucker did a summary of the division.  And Cosell more than most is high on some players on this roster.  But when he was asked about the Commanders threatening the Eagles, all he did was run through the names of the Eagles D line versus this O line.  That's it.  And said the Eagles have nothing to worry about.

 

 

I know Riddick has Wylies name on the calander. I think that game is going to be really ugly for us. 

[Chris 44]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think the Eagles are going to smoke this team.

 

I know some here think enough with the O line stuff.  But the funny thing was Greg Cosell who does a podcast with Tucker did a summary of the division.  And Cosell more than most is high on some players on this roster.  But when he was asked about the Commanders threatening the Eagles, all he did was run through the names of the Eagles D line versus this O line.  That's it.  And said the Eagles have nothing to worry about.

 

 

No way this goes to trial. Will get plead before March 4.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Chris 44

[jjpomeroy]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think the Eagles are going to smoke this team.

 

I know some here think enough with the O line stuff.  But the funny thing was Greg Cosell who does a podcast with Tucker did a summary of the division.  And Cosell more than most is high on some players on this roster.  But when he was asked about the Commanders threatening the Eagles, all he did was run through the names of the Eagles D line versus this O line.  That's it.  And said the Eagles have nothing to worry about.

 

 

As Sheehan has said - it’s a week to week league.   I don’t think it’s too productive forecasting out multiple weeks.  Lots of things will happen that can’t be predicted impacting future games.  
 

I don’t think too many folks had the Commanders beating the undefeated Eagles last year…

[RandyHolt]

48 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

What are the discernible differences between a 25th and 14th rated Oline?

Ultimately I think it comes down to the ability to execute blitz pickups and stunts. The game within the game - the mental side.

[wit33]

16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

14th ranked lines go to the playoffs. 

 

25th ranked ones draft high.

 

That work for tiers?

What rankings do you use?

 

If you make the playoffs, then your Oline is good?

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'll start with a want a good O line.  I want it to be a strength not what can we hopefully just get by with.   I want to be like the Eagles-Chiefs-Ravens-Dallas.  I don't look at those teams like they are fools for emphasizing the position.  If you want to go old school win in the trenches, its both sides of the ball not just the D line.  This fan base above all should feel that point.

 

But if we are setting the bar low.  I'd want average.  14-18 range.

 

Most national outfits-analytics groups put this O line somewhere in the 32-27 range.  Lets say I'll characterize that category as sucks.

 

As for what I predict with this O line.  25.  I put that in the bad category.  Lets say 23-26.    

 

19-22 below average

14-18 average.

 

Things aren't a straight line in the NFL.  So as I've said to death on many posts, I think the O line will hold up fine in plenty of games.  But I do not think its good enough to hold off against some of the big boy teams in big moments and that IMO will likely cost them the playoffs. 

What metrics do you use to categorize each? 

5 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Ultimately I think it comes down to the ability to execute blitz pickups and stunts. The game within the game - the mental side.

100% agree. 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

What rankings do you use?

 

If you make the playoffs, then your Oline is good?

What metrics do you use to categorize each? 

https://theathletic.com/4794610/2023/08/22/good-blocking-rate-running-backs-fantasy-football/

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, jjpomeroy said:

As Sheehan has said - it’s a week to week league.   I don’t think it’s too productive forecasting out multiple weeks.  Lots of things will happen that can’t be predicted impacting future games.  
 

I don’t think too many folks had the Commanders beating the undefeated Eagles last year…

 

The board wouldn't have much cooking in discussion if we were slaves to just the facts.  Most of our takes involves predictions-opinions that haven't played out.  

 

We know about any given Sunday.    Opinions aren't carved in stone.  It's just talking.

[NoVaSkins21]

22 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Draft a LB and OT ^^^^

Great idea, but knowing this staff around next year, they'll ignore these needs like have like past seasons and go with what they have if they're still around next year

Edited August 31, 2023 by NoVaSkins21

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

https://theathletic.com/4794610/2023/08/22/good-blocking-rate-running-backs-fantasy-football/

 

It brings home for those who goof on the Giants, Minny, Atlanta for using high draft capital for the O line and it results in nothing.  As I've said, those units have struggled to pass block but their run blocking units are good.

 

This O line majored in sucking in BOTH pass blocking and run blocking.  Look I agree it will be better this year especially the run blocking -- but as Keim likes to say how much better and will it be better enough?

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

1 hour ago, Rex Tomb said:

All of the things I am reading about stingers say they are a relatively mild injury and can be dealt with in a few days if not 10 or 15 minutes.  It's been 3 weeks. Something doesn't add up here.

Yep. Did you see what that doctor said on Ben Standig's twitter feed? He said that stingers don't linger and should be taken care of in 24 hours or less. He speculates that Chase may have a cervical issue. Smh.

[Skinsinparadise]

45 minutes ago, wit33 said:

What metrics do you use to categorize each? 

 

 

The reputation and historical durability of each player on the O line.  Look when I look at outfits that use metrics like PFF, Football Outsiders, Sharp ranked this unit near the bottom and rank this new configuration the same way.  Ditto dudes like Thom who fancies themselves as ab O line guru and whom draftniks have quoted for years about the position.

 

I'll take some of these narratives and actually say they are wrong.  I think its a little better than they paint.  I'll run with the Bieiniemy can scheme the unit to play better.  I'll bank on at least something optimistic happening -- maybe Cosmi stays healthy for the first time or Charles-Paul develop.  Impossible to guess what happens right, but I'd expect something to turn out better than expected in the soup.   While I am cynical about everything going right.   I do expect something to go right where some player exceeds their reputation. 

 

The difference with me and those who think the O line is fine, is while I'll take it a half a peg above these players reputation/pedigree, some will take it a full peg or more higher than their pedigree.  That is certainly more optimsitc than I am.  I get for example, Logan Paulsen's point, he's easily the most optimisitc of the ones covering the team about the unit, that maybe the pedigree of the players individually aren't hot but they will gel as a unit and play better as a whole than their individual talent.  But it feels a bit over the top for me.  I'd need to see that to believe it.  Or at least have one other reporter who has watched practice agree with him. 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[@DCGoldPants]

The Chase Young and before that, Logan Thomas stuff makes me think of this tweet. How a front office and development of players works (one of many other points)

 

This is something as a new owner, I'd be curious about. Bring in Ron, Jason Wright and the head medical whoever to explain to me what's going on here. "You said he had a stinger on X date. At the time you said it was day to day? Was it the medical folks who said that to Ron, and he repeated it to the press? Why did they think it was day-to-day then? Were they wrong? If so..... what did they get wrong? Or, did they not get that detailed with Ron and he opted to say it was day-to-day? Same with the Logan Thomas thing. Walk me through how this process goes from a guy feeling like something is injured through diagnosis, through deciding what to say in front of a mic."