2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, skinny21 said:

@SkinsinparadiseRead through your original response to mine (and reread mine) and I think I see the disconnect now.

1. I missed the part where you said “our version of it in the interior”, and since you’d mentioned Brown and Nsheke, I thought you were including tackle (so I pointed at Lucas).

2. I said “back end” players - I wasn’t referring to our immediate backups.  Now, I do (and did) wonder if someone from those two groups - the young guys and semi-veteran PS guys we picked up - might be able to step up to a backup role.  And then there’s the idea that whichever guy loses the LG battle would be the next guard up.  As I said though, I’d feel a lot more comfortable if we had one more proven guy at guard to 1. Compete for the starting gig, and 2. Bolster depth.

 

It's cool. It makes sense.  I mentioned different backups over the years on the O line to make the point that I like having a plug and play veteran.  And we indeed have that at center and tackle now.  But not guard.  Yeah for me if they signed just one veteran guard for me it would go a long way.   Signing a guard would still have us with a below average O line IMO but it wouldn't feel as ominious if an injury happened at guard and or if Charles isn't good.  I like Paul's potential but right now I expect him to play because between Cosmi and Charles they will likely be missing their share of games plus it wouldn't surprise me if Paul beats out Charles. 

 

Right now, I see them having 3 average starters -- C plus level guys at center, RT, LT.  Our division foes have some A level players on the O line, whereas we have none.  That's not great but I can live with it to some extent.

 

But the interior to me is a ticking time bomb.  Charles hasn't even proven he's good let alone he can stay healthy.  And Cosmi is our O line version of St. Juste which is talented player who can't stay on the field.  Only legit guard backup is Paul at guard.  Yeah you can move Wylie but there goes your depth at tackle if so.  And I suspect they don't love the idea of reshuffiling the line everything being equal.  It's just IMO a bad setup begging for a collapse IMO.

 

And the fact that Rivera actually recently referenced St Juste in the context if he can stay healthy.  And a beat guy mentioned they knew they need another corner this off season in part because St. Juste struggled to stay healthy.

 

So the fact that St. Juste's lack of durability clearly bothered them whereas no only did Charles and Cosmi's durability not bother them but they doubled down specifically on Charles now and will rely on him even more -- coupled with Rivera referencing in a response to a question about how has the O line imporved from last year to this one?  And his response is they have to stay healthy, brings it home for me that the position that Ron is willing to roll the dice on is the O line.

 

And while some on the board (not you) think some here are overreacting to it.  I hope they end up right and we are wrong.  But its far from just some stragglers on the board who think the O line does the team in.  Phillips tweet which I posted before brings home really well.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

30 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Dyami and Milne are going need to watch over their shoulders as some of these UDFA are looking pretty darn good!

 

It will be fun to watch how Howell progresses and who becomes his favorite targets, Dotson is not a bad place to start!

 

Paulsen said Milne and Dyami have looked good, too.  So yeah it should be interesting.

 

Digesting all the narratives, Howell's favorite targets are Dotson and Thomas.

 

Logan Paulsen doubled down the same point as others watching practices have made that Howell's weakness is the middle of the field.  It's not unusual for QBs that are around 6 foot or less to not be as adept at seeing the field in the middle.   Paulsen thinks it would help Sam to have a really tall receiver for the miiddle of the field action.

 

He thinks his wheel house right now is the quick game.  He is getting rid of the ball fast and efficiently as to his short throws and struggled a bit more getting the ball down the field.  That's actually lol the reverse of what Russell said.  But I'll trust Paulsen. 

 

Or maybe its just things are changing for Howell as things move on.  Paulsen said that Howell has gotten really efficient with the quick game and underneath throws.  Overall he's been inconsistent but very efficient with the bread and butter -- quick game stuff according to Paulsen.

 

He alludes to Brissett has shown more accuracy than Howell but downgrades him for holding on the ball longer whereas Howell's release is faster -- and Paulsen said specifically with this O line, Howell's quick twich release is likely more suited fot this season.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

 

 

Daniels is going to need to get that lunging issue under wraps or he won't deserve earning reps with the 2nd team, very bad habit.

 

If Strom does not see more 2nd team action in camp it would be very unsettling, almost feels like a waist of 2 big draft picks...and we have already had our share of those and can't afford more. I don't think that will occur. 

 

 

I liked as you know Stromberg predraft and liked the pick.  Heck I actually every now and then would tout Daniels athleticism on the draft thread, didn't love him, but among those 3rd tier guys he was up there for me.   

 

But considering they don't seem to plan to start either one or for that matter have them much in their backup plans.  

 

Feels bizzare to me.  @Koolblue13 likes to say at some point Rivera sort of gave up or just decided not to finish the roster at some point this off season.   I see it more as deciding that winning in 2023 isn't the be all and end all -- and the strangeness to that point is it feels like he almost doesn't want to be coaching in 2024. 

 

Granted the point sounds dramatic and I doubt its that explicit but it feels like for some reason Ron decided he didn't have to put his foot on the gas in a must win season for him.   The thought by some who cover the team that Bieiniemy is the defacto HC in waiting.  Add to that Rivera by his own admission isn't hands on as a coach right now and is even letting Bieiniemy dictate practice schedules.  It sort ot adds to that vibe.

 

Standig talked about this specific point recently which is you don't take players typically in the 3rd-4th round who you don't envision helping you this season.  So he goes why not take a LB instead or a guard (I think he said the point about guard but it might have been someone else) who is more plug and play versus a project, etc.   My take on that point is they could have taken Zavala who is a natural guard.  Herbig could play LB.  Both players could have been had at those spots.

 

When that story from Dianne Russini came out that a prospective owner of this team already talked to Sean Payton.  And later Payton confirmed it.  And Russini also said back then she expected Harris to get this team.  Then add that Bezos was never serious about acquiring this team let alone talking to prospective coaches.  And the other two prospective owners didn't come off uber serious either, one of the two wasn't even much in the mix in sports in the USA.  I'd put it at 95% that it was Harris who talked to Sean Payton.  And Ron is no dummy,  If we can piece that together so could he.  So maybe he found that discouraging?  And if so, I don't blame him.  

Edited June 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[UK Skins]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Standig talked about this specific point recently which is you don't take players typically in the 3rd-4th round who you don't envision helping you this season.  So he goes why not take a LB instead or a guard (I think he said the point about guard but it might have been someone else) who is more plug and play versus a project, etc.   My take on that point is they could have taken Zavala who is a natural guard.  Herbig could play LB.  Both players could have been had at those spots.

 

 

I am finding this more and more baffling. With such a TE heavy draft why on earth didn't we pick one up in the 3rd or 4th? Or LB as you say. The idea of picking TWO players, so comparatively high up in the draft and having no intention of them playing is ridiculous. They could just as easily draft those positions next year and pick two players who can actually play this year. We are effectively two draft picks short.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

 

I am finding this more and more baffling. With such a TE heavy draft why on earth didn't we pick one up in the 3rd or 4th? Or LB as you say. The idea of picking TWO players, so comparatively high up in the draft and having no intention of them playing is ridiculous. They could just as easily draft those positions next year and pick two players who can actually play this year. We are effectively two draft picks short.

 

Standig said it well for me.  He goes unless they have a secret plan for both players it makes no sense.  He said to say both players are forgotten by Rivera when talking about this roster is an understatement.  They get almost no heed.  And Rivera talks about a lot of players in his conferences.

 

It comes off really wacky to me.   For a team who does almost nothing in FA.  For a coaching staff and FO that by most accounts have their jobs on the line.   Can they really afford to use their 3rd and 4th round picks on dudes that will contribute in 2024 but unlikely make a dent in 2023?

 

Now if somehow looks-rhetoric are deceiving and in camp we discover they have 2023 plans for both, I'll take it back.  But for now for a dude who said multiple times that O line is the code red spot and suggested it was what sunk the season last year -- to do so little to address the spot.  Not taking an O lineman early in the draft and the two they do take are likely non-contributors to this season -- just wild to me.  Now his answer for how things are improved from this year to last on the O line -- "they just need to stay healthy".

 

It feels a little like the previous off season where we heard a lot about how LB is the position they wanted to address.  Then they decided that Holcomb was really good and their answers were in house.  This is round 2 of this.  O line is the spot.  And they do almost nothing on it.  And now its lets just stay healthy. 

 

Whereas they can survive having weak depth at LB IMO, they are unlikely going to survive that at O line. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[mhd24]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's cool. It makes sense.  I mentioned different backups over the years on the O line to make the point that I like having a plug and play veteran.  And we indeed have that at center and tackle now.  But not guard.  Yeah for me if they signed just one veteran guard for me it would go a long way.   Signing a guard would still have us with a below average O line IMO but it wouldn't feel as ominious if an injury happened at guard and or if Charles isn't good.  I like Paul's potential but right now I expect him to play because between Cosmi and Charles they will likely be missing their share of games plus it wouldn't surprise me if Paul beats out Charles. 

 

Right now, I see them having 3 average starters -- C plus level guys at center, RT, LT.  Our division foes have some A level players on the O line, whereas we have none.  That's not great but I can live with it to some extent.

 

But the interior to me is a ticking time bomb.  Charles hasn't even proven he's good let alone he can stay healthy.  And Cosmi is our O line version of St. Juste which is talented player who can't stay on the field.  Only legit guard backup is Paul at guard.  Yeah you can move Wylie but there goes your depth at tackle if so.  And I suspect they don't love the idea of reshuffiling the line everything being equal.  It's just IMO a bad setup begging for a collapse IMO.

 

And the fact that Rivera actually recently referenced St Juste in the context if he can stay healthy.  And a beat guy mentioned they knew they need another corner this off season in part because St. Juste struggled to stay healthy.

 

So the fact that St. Juste's lack of durability clearly borthered them whereas no only did Charles and Cosmi's durability not bother them but they doubled down specifically on Charles now and will rely on him even more -- coupled with Rivera referencing in a response to a question about how has the O line imporved from last year to this one?  And his response is they have to stay healthy, brings it home for me that the position that Ron is willing to roll the dice on is the O line.

 

And while some on the board (not you) think some here are overreacting to it.  I hope they end up right and we are wrong.  But its far from just some stragglers on the board who think the O line does the team in.  Phillips tweet which I posted before brings home really well.

 

 

 

 

I would only dispute with you regarding the failure to mention Larson.  Larson being out killed our season last year.  Larson is a solid backup center.  I figure that is why they don't really need Stromberg this season and want to ease him in.  

 

I figure your issue is that we took Martin instead of OL.  By all accounts, Forbes is looking like a home run pick so far.  I think Ron would have taken Paris Johnson, Skoronski, or Wright if they fell, but they were long gone.  Doesn't look like they were hot after Broderick Jones.  CB was the biggest need and Forbes made perfect sense.

 

You digged Martin pre-draft, and he certainly fills a need potentially as a Swiss-army type DB.  Maybe they didn't like Mauch?  Torrence apparently had injury issues that caused him to fall to 59.  He also wasn't the most athletic OG and maybe doesn't fit EB's scheme that requires athletic guards to run those screens.

 

Freeland could have been taken instead of Stromberg, but he was as much a project as Daniels appears to be.  After a mini-run on OL in the top 5 of R3, no OL got taken until Morris & Stromberg in late R3.  We were slim picking at that point.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

I would only dispute with you regarding the failure to mention Larson.  Larson being out killed our season last year.  Larson is a solid backup center.  I figure that is why they don't really need Stromberg this season and want to ease him in.  

 

 

I said in another post I am not worried about depth at center and tackle.  I am worred about guard.  I didn't specifically mention Larsen but that's who I was thinking about at center.

 

As for Stromberg, the point wasn't about criticzing them for not starting him or penciling him as the top backup. The point was about them taking players in the 3rd and 4th round who are unlikely to contribute this season and I found that point among others very strange in a win now season.

 

You talking about Larsen in this context is just giving the reason why they are unlikely to plan Stromberg.  I agree that he's the reason.  But it has nothing to do with my point.

 

2 hours ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

I figure your issue is that we took Martin instead of OL.  

 

Not in the least.  It's not about one move.  it's not about one pick.  It's about ther total package of the off season.  If they signed a guard with some pedigree for example, I could care less if their O lineman taken in the draft aren't slated to help them this season.  But that's not how they played it.  It's about all of their decisions married together. 

 

As you mentioned I digged Martin pre-draft.  On the draft thread, some of us put together our top 15-20 players in this draft before the draft happens.  Martin was on mine.  And i even did a long post about why I'd think he'd be a good pick in the 2nd round.  so no issue with that pick.  I really have no issue with any of their picks in a vaccum.  There are some spots I'd have gone in different directions but overall in a vacuum each pick to me was fine.  

 

@Going Commando asked me to lay out what I'd have done differently in FA.  So I did and i was very specific.  One person asked where we'd have taken a TE in this draft, I laid that out, too.  I am not at a lost as to how I'd do it differently where i am just whining about it without having thoughts about alternative moves. 

 

Look this FO could be right and I could be wrong.  And i hope am wrong.  But If i end up right, no way i am not going to be critical and not want this regime gone.   But if I am wrong, I'd love it.  I've been right about things over the years and wrong about things.  I don't really give a rats behind about guessing right or wrong whether its me or anyone else -- I appreciate more than anything people's effort to put meat behind their points.

 

I tend to lean optimisitc about the roster-seasons.   Not as much this season but still not too bad.   I am still more optimisitc than the average observer.  Our fans overwhelmingly in a recent Internet poll predicted a losing season.  The anayltics outfits expect a bad season.  Vegas expects a bad season.  National media expects a bad season.  Mock draft types are calling us to pick somewhere between 5-8 next season.  I just got my first NFL prediction magazine and they expect them to finish last.  I'd put money that they will all predict last.

 

Seems like with most the perception is Ron's likely last season will end up on a low.  I am not predicting that.  I think its 8-9.  With some bad breaks, 7-10.  With a ton of luck, 9-8.

 

Their ceiling IMO curbed by the offensive line.  IMO the offensive line is too much of a domino spot to work around it as a weakness.    But yeah in general, there really isn't one specific move i am hung up on.  It's the totality. 

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[mhd24]

55 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I said in another post I am not worried about depth at center and tackle.  I am worred about guard.  I didn't specifically mention Larsen but that's who I was thinking about at center.

 

As for Stromberg, the point wasn't about criticzing them for not starting him or penciling him as the top backup. The point was about them taking players in the 3rd and 4th round who are unlikely to contribute this season and I found that point among others very strange in a win now season.

 

You talking about Larsen in this context is just giving the reason why they are unlikely to plan Stromberg.  I agree that he's the reason.  But it has nothing to do with my point.

 

 

Not in the least.  It's not about one move.  it's not about one pick.  It's about ther total package of the off season.  If they signed a guard with some pedigree for example, I could care less if their O lineman taken in the draft aren't slated to help them this season.  But that's not how they played it.  It's about all of their decisions married together. 

 

As you mentioned I digged Martin pre-draft.  On the draft thread, some of us put together our top 15-20 players in this draft before the draft happens.  Martin was on mine.  And i even did a long post about why I'd think he'd be a good pick in the 2nd round.  so no issue with that pick.  I really have no issue with any of their picks in a vaccum.  There are some spots I'd have gone in different directions but overall in a vacuum each pick to me was fine.  

 

@Going Commando asked me to lay out what I'd have done differently in FA.  So I did and i was very specific.  One person asked where we'd have taken a TE in this draft, I laid that out, too.  I am not at a lost as to how I'd do it differently where i am just whining about it without having thoughts about alternative moves. 

 

Look this FO could be right and I could be wrong.  And i hope am wrong.  But If i end up right, no way i am not going to be critical and not want this regime gone.   But if I am wrong, I'd love it.  I've been right about things over the years and wrong about things.  I don't really give a rats behind about guessing right or wrong whether its me or anyone else -- I appreciate more than anything people's effort to put meat behind their points.

 

I tend to lean optimisitc about the roster-seasons.   Not as much this season but still not too bad.   I am still more optimisitc than the average observer.  Our fans overwhelmingly in a recent Internet poll predicted a losing season.  The anayltics outfits expect a bad season.  Vegas expects a bad season.  National media expects a bad season.  Mock draft types are calling us to pick somewhere between 5-8 next season.  I just got my first NFL prediction magazine and they expect them to finish last.  I'd put money that they will all predict last.

 

Seems like with most the perception is Ron's likely last season will end up on a low.  I am not predicting that.  I think its 8-9.  With some bad breaks, 7-10.  With a ton of luck, 9-8.

 

Their ceiling IMO curbed by the offensive line.  IMO the offensive line is too much of a domino spot to work around it as a weakness.    But yeah in general, there really isn't one specific move i am hung up on.  It's the totality. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I completely get where you’re coming from on your online trepidations.  It’s worrisome.  I just don’t what Ron could do given the ownership change and lack of budget.  We didn’t sign anyone with big bucks in FA.  Probably due to the ownership change.  Can’t extend Curl now due to it.  We had to bargain shop.  Ron’s best FA have been bargain bin players ironically.  Wylie made sense given EB knew him.  Ditto Gates since he was in the division and we know him more than another player.  If they sign a vet after a couple weeks in camp, that’s probably the direction they go

[method man]

15 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

Yeah, I completely get where you’re coming from on your online trepidations.  It’s worrisome.  I just don’t what Ron could do given the ownership change and lack of budget.  We didn’t sign anyone with big bucks in FA.  Probably due to the ownership change.  Can’t extend Curl now due to it.  We had to bargain shop.  Ron’s best FA have been bargain bin players ironically.  Wylie made sense given EB knew him.  Ditto Gates since he was in the division and we know him more than another player.  If they sign a vet after a couple weeks in camp, that’s probably the direction they go

Yep. RR has had his hands tied the past couple offseasons and that hasn’t been talked about enough. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, mhd24 said:

Yeah, I completely get where you’re coming from on your online trepidations.  It’s worrisome.  I just don’t what Ron could do given the ownership change and lack of budget.  We didn’t sign anyone with big bucks in FA.  Probably due to the ownership change.  Can’t extend Curl now due to it.  We had to bargain shop.  Ron’s best FA have been bargain bin players ironically.  Wylie made sense given EB knew him.  Ditto Gates since he was in the division and we know him more than another player.  If they sign a vet after a couple weeks in camp, that’s probably the direction they go

 

I don't excuse Ron one whit based on ownership and the budget on this issue specifically.  And I've defended him about his "budget" plenty of times especially last off season and that includes the overhang issues relating to Dan. I probably made this point in the past as strongly as anyone here as to defending Ron.  But the point doesn't apply to this at all IMO.

 

I didn't get the vibe that signing a guard in FA would have busted their budget.  Someone like Nate Davis.  But lets play along and say it would.  Heck they could have gotten Will Hernandez dirt cheap if its all about budget.  Or if the budget hamstrung him to that extent then factor that for the draft coming up.

 

A poiint @MartinC made is he doesn't think Ron values the positon much.  He might be right judging by Ron's actions as opposed to his rhetoric.   We've lost Trent, Scherff and Moses.  And we haven't really aggressively replaced them over time. 

 

The vibe right now is there isn't a single player they took in the draft will contribute this year to the O line.  Zero. Nada.  

 

And if you told the average poster here at the start of the off season -- they wouldn't be aggressive in FA at all as for the O line but the kicker is they wouldn't take a single O lineman in the draft that is slated to help them this year -- most would think that would be nuts.

 

Now that it happened, I get the instinct to defend it.   I've spent hours upon hours defending Ron for years.  And I get the instinct to have his back and say it will all work out and give him a chance.  Or give him another off season in 2024 because he's still building.  I am familiar with the mental acrobatics on it considering I've done it plenty.  But in year 4 I am not bending over backwards to defend him and think well wait until year 5 in the rebuild -- when division foes like NY accomplished something in one year that this organization hasn't accomplished in 16 years.   

 

Ron's leash for me doesn't extend to 5 years.  If he proves the naysayers wrong this season, terrific.  If not, I'd 100% be on board with him being canned.  Right now my bet is he will be canned after the season.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Ron's leash for me doesn't extend to 5 years.  If he proves the naysayers wrong this season, terrific.  If not, I'd 100% be on board with him being canned.  Right now my bet is he will be canned after the season.

I think it’s a very very safe bet that there will be wholesale changes in both front office and coaching after this coming season. It’s going to take a playoff run (or at least a playoff berth where we don’t back in to the last wildcard and lose that game) to save jobs and buy more road, and it’s very optimistic to think that’s likely with a very inexperienced QB or a journeyman top level backup type QB and an iffy O’line. It’s not impossible, but a lot of stars are going to have to align and Howell is going to have to play towards his ceiling for it to happen.

 

On O’line their actions so far tell the story. 

Overall there is a lot of talent on this roster. With a top level QB and a couple of plus players on O’line the whole narrative around this team changes. 

[Chump Bailey]

I like Tinsley. Hope he makes it. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

So…I guess you guys aren’t stoked about the OL? 😆

[Koolblue13]

Couple of thoughts

 

I am big on Hodges and ends up being TE3

 

Thomas looking fast again and having chemistry with Sam is great news. I'm still high on Bates as a great TE2

 

I'm a bit more excited than I was, even if I don't see a winning season. Maybe things break right and we finish above the cowboys.

 

I love our secondary. Big time LOVE our secondary

 

I really wish we could add a LBer.

 

The Oline is going to ruin everything for us this year and I hope it doesn't ruin poor Sam.

[MartinC]

15 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

So…I guess you guys aren’t stoked about the OL? 😆

So you picked up on that 🙂

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Overall there is a lot of talent on this roster. With a top level QB and a couple of plus players on O’line the whole narrative around this team changes. 

 

Agree that's why it feels so frustrating to me.  Feels like they built a nice size ship with all the trappings but then also left the hole on it to ensure it doesn't make its destination spot.  If they fixed that hole it would have been a fun season.  Granted it still could be but got my doubts.

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Couple of thoughts

 

I am big on Hodges and ends up being TE3

 

Thomas looking fast again and having chemistry with Sam is great news. I'm still high on Bates as a great TE2

 

I'm a bit more excited than I was, even if I don't see a winning season. Maybe things break right and we finish above the cowboys.

 

I love our secondary. Big time LOVE our secondary

 

I really wish we could add a LBer.

 

The Oline is going to ruin everything for us this year and I hope it doesn't ruin poor Sam.

 

It's pretty much my take, too.  I'd just add i am stoked about Cole Turner if he can stay healthy, too.   If Rodriguez plays like he did in college he'd be fun, too.

 

Part of my disappointment in the O line moves is I think it limits the RBs, too.  I'd love to see our three lead backs with a real O line leading the way but alas its not set up that way.

 

It's not just the pass blocking that feels "meh" -- the run blocking ditto.

 

But outside of that there is a lot that I like about this roster.

[Anselmheifer]

Vegas doesn’t think we will be terrible. They think we will be Ron Rivers’s normal. The over under is 7.5 wins. 
 

Injuries at LB and OL could really tank us though. I could see us getting 9 wins, but could also see us getting 4 wins. 
 

I don’t think Howell has the stuff to be a top 8 QB in the NFL. If we are within reach, and the pick is for sale, I’d trade a lot to get up to 1. Picks. Terry. Chase. one of our DT’s. Very little would be off the table to have one of the best QB’s to come out recently. And I could also see that being a Josh Harris move. 

 

 

[MrJL]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

Vegas doesn’t think we will be terrible. They think we will be Ron Rivers’s normal. The over under is 7.5 wins. 
 

Injuries at LB and OL could really tank us though. I could see us getting 9 wins, but could also see us getting 4 wins. 
 

I don’t think Howell has the stuff to be a top 8 QB in the NFL. If we are within reach, and the pick is for sale, I’d trade a lot to get up to 1. Picks. Terry. Chase. one of our DT’s. Very little would be off the table to have one of the best QB’s to come out recently. And I could also see that being a Josh Harris move. 

 

 

 

injuries at Oline shouldn't sink us.  We got 8 wins and a tie with injuries at OL last year after all

[Anselmheifer]

52 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

injuries at Oline shouldn't sink us.  We got 8 wins and a tie with injuries at OL last year after all

Tougher schedule and the rest of the division improved more than we did. I wouldn’t be shocked if we went 1-5 in division games.

 

And a tougher schedule. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Anselmheifer

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Vegas doesn’t think we will be terrible. They think we will be Ron Rivers’s normal. The over under is 7.5 wins. 
 

Injuries at LB and OL could really tank us though. I could see us getting 9 wins, but could also see us getting 4 wins. 
 

I don’t think Howell has the stuff to be a top 8 QB in the NFL. If we are within reach, and the pick is for sale, I’d trade a lot to get up to 1. Picks. Terry. Chase. one of our DT’s. Very little would be off the table to have one of the best QB’s to come out recently. And I could also see that being a Josh Harris move. 

 

 

 

Might not be terrible but bad.  They are favored to win in just two games currently in a bunch of the spreads I've seen.

 

 

https://www.thelines.com/odds/super-bowl/

HOW SUPER BOWL ODDS ARE CHANGING

Here is how Super Bowl odds are changing throughout the off-season. First are the Super Bowl futures from February 13.

Team	Super Bowl Odds 2024: Feb 13	Super Bowl Odds 2024: March 8	Super Bowl Odds 2024: March 14

Kansas City Chiefs	+600	+550	+600
San Francisco 49ers	+800	+750	+700
Buffalo Bills	+700	+700	+850
Philadelphia Eagles	+900	+850	+850
Cincinnati Bengals	+900	+900	+900
Dallas Cowboys	+1400	+1400	+1400
New York Jets	+2800	+1800	+1600
LA Chargers	+2200	+2200	+2500
Miami Dolphins	+3000	+3000	+2500
Baltimore Ravens	+2200	+2200	+2500
Detroit Lions	+3000	+2800	+2500
Denver Broncos	+3000	+3000	+2500
Jacksonville Jaguars	+2800	+2800	+2800
Green Bay Packers	+3000	+3500	+3500
Cleveland Browns	+4000	+3500	+3500
New Orleans Saints	+5000	+4000	+3500
New York Giants	+4000	+4000	+4000
Las Vegas Raiders	+4000	+4000	+4000
Minnesota Vikings	+4500	+5000	+4000
Chicago Bears	+8000	+8000	+5000
Pittsburgh Steelers	+5500	+5500	+5500
Carolina Panthers	+5500	+5500	+5500
New England Patriots	+6000	+5000	+6000
LA Rams	+3500	+3500	+6000
Tampa Bay Buccaneers	+6000	+6500	+6500
Seattle Seahawks	+7000	+7000	+7000
Washington Commanders	+7000	+7000	+7000
Atlanta Falcons	+7500	+7500	+7500
Tennessee Titans	+7500	+7500	+8000
Indianapolis Colts	+15000	+15000	+15000
Houston Texans	+20000	+20000	+20000
Arizona Cardinals	+20000	+20000	+20000

Edited June 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Anselmheifer]

I get it SIP. We would need the OL to be decent, for a 2nd year 5th round draft pick at QB to be good, and for all of the pieces on defense to stay healthy and produce at a level near their potential. 
 

It feels like every year I can remember. Hoping for health, for an unreasonable lack of injuries, for young players to step up, for players to be better than the national media thinks. 
 

I think we are more likely to have a top 10 draft pick than a spot in the playoffs. 
 

The difference is, I think we have a ton of talent. I do think this team is fixable in one offseason. We have cap room, and I expect we will have an aggressive approach and the best GM and scouting that money can buy. 
 

People hate on Ron, and I think he’s the wrong guy to help us take the next step. But, he was absolutely the best we could have gotten at the time and has done a good job Re-establishing culture in an impossible situation and restocking the cupboards. I honestly am very happy with his performance given the circumstances. And simultaneously ready to move on and take the next step. 

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I get it SIP. We would need the OL to be decent, for a 2nd year 5th round draft pick at QB to be good, and for all of the pieces on defense to stay healthy and produce at a level near their potential. 
 

It feels like every year I can remember. Hoping for health, for an unreasonable lack of injuries, for young players to step up, for players to be better than the national media thinks. 
 

I think we are more likely to have a top 10 draft pick than a spot in the playoffs. 
 

The difference is, I think we have a ton of talent. I do think this team is fixable in one offseason. We have cap room, and I expect we will have an aggressive approach and the best GM and scouting that money can buy. 
 

People hate on Ron, and I think he’s the wrong guy to help us take the next step. But, he was absolutely the best we could have gotten at the time and has done a good job Re-establishing culture in an impossible situation and restocking the cupboards. I honestly am very happy with his performance given the circumstances. And simultaneously ready to move on and take the next step. 

 

I agree with all of this.

 

A.  I have zero hate on Ron.  Love Ron.  I think he did a nice job considering context for the last 4 years.  I just don't think he's the guy to take it for forward.  I'll look at Ron's tenure more favorable than any other regime we've had.  He was the port in the storm during a tidal wave of dysfunction.  He did a great job considering.

 

B.  I've made similar points about the roster.  It should be easy for the next coaching staff-FO to take this team up a notch.  I've made the same point before -- fixable in one off season.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Anselmheifer]

 

I don’t remember if anyone posted clips of McLaurin beating Forbes or Forbes jumping the Dotson route. 
 

I think the things I’m most encouraged by from

minicamp are the performance of Forbes and Martin, how much better Chase looked, and Howell looking competent. 
 

Im really happy about Forbes and Martin. I think the difference in the defense could be huge. 

 

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

4 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

I don’t remember if anyone posted clips of McLaurin beating Forbes or Forbes jumping the Dotson route. 
 

I think the things I’m most encouraged by from

minicamp are the performance of Forbes and Martin, how much better Chase looked, and Howell looking competent. 
 

Im really happy about Forbes and Martin. I think the difference in the defense could be huge. 

 

 

 

 

That lady is annoying as ****.

 

How the hell could Forbes not know about Green?

[Koolblue13]

Also, I'm on par with Sip and a couple others that our team is jam packed with talent. There is a ton to be excited about.

 

And y'all with the Oline jokes. Ron said Oline was the priority and then wasted 2 premium picks on long term projects and signed 2 guys with more injury history that starting history, while losing some of the most talented guys on the team. It's frustrating to be told that they'll fix the biggest hole and then see them half ass it. Like LBer. They say it's a priority and then do nothing.

 

I think we're gonna be great at most of the things we do, but obvious holes kill us and the new coaching staff will have to throw big money at positions that you're suppose to invest in and we don't.