2024 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

I’m expecting the offseason to be fairly wild. Couple of significant moves in FA and a completely different approach in the draft. None of this playing safe business. Could see a much more aggressive draft strategy and that may well result in a major trade up IMO.

If Josh Harris replaces the Rivera regime, then that'll be it for Sam Howell.  I could definitely see a new regime trading up for a QB.  The problem is it won't be to get to #2 because the teams who are picking top 2 in this class just aren't going to give up Williams or Maye.  They are too special.  So we're talking about trading up for QB3 most likely, and that makes my stomach churn.

[MartinC]

27 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

If Josh Harris replaces the Rivera regime, then that'll be it for Sam Howell.  I could definitely see a new regime trading up for a QB.  The problem is it won't be to get to #2 because the teams who are picking top 2 in this class just aren't going to give up Williams or Maye.  They are too special.  So we're talking about trading up for QB3 most likely, and that makes my stomach churn.

Thats why I’m not 100% sure that a coaching change is necessarily the end for Sam as the starter. If he plays well and shows development but we end up in the 8-9 win range because we lose some close games but Harris decides we need a change of structure (true GM) and clean start at coaching I can see a scenario we’re Sam is still the starter next season because we are in the teens range drafting and can’t get into a range to draft one of the blue chip QBs.

 

Draft an OT, continue to build around Sam based off a good first year starting and see if he can make a second year bounce.

 

I do think the most likely outcome though is that you are right and Sam as the starter is tied at the hip to Ron.

 

Is Sanders the QB3 at this point? JJ McCarthy?

[DWinzit]

56 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Thats why I’m not 100% sure that a coaching change is necessarily the end for Sam as the starter. If he plays well and shows development but we end up in the 8-9 win range because we lose some close games but Harris decides we need a change of structure (true GM) and clean start at coaching I can see a scenario we’re Sam is still the starter next season because we are in the teens range drafting and can’t get into a range to draft one of the blue chip QBs.

 

Draft an OT, continue to build around Sam based off a good first year starting and see if he can make a second year bounce.

 

I do think the most likely outcome though is that you are right and Sam as the starter is tied at the hip to Ron.

 

Is Sanders the QB3 at this point? JJ McCarthy?

It feels like QB3 is going to be a battle through the season as there is not a clear cut favorite. There are a number of talented guys, none have what Maye and Williams bring to the table.

 

I am very much in favor or your suggestion....build that OL beginning with a stud T, which would be filling a giant need and taking advantage of the strength of the beginning of the  draft. Kind of like taking a CB and TE last year. Ooops, well 1 of 2 was okay.

Edited September 16, 2023 by DWinzit

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

If Josh Harris replaces the Rivera regime, then that'll be it for Sam Howell.  I could definitely see a new regime trading up for a QB.  The problem is it won't be to get to #2 because the teams who are picking top 2 in this class just aren't going to give up Williams or Maye.  They are too special.  So we're talking about trading up for QB3 most likely, and that makes my stomach churn.

You keep saying that it'll be the end of Sam and I'm not sure why. There is no precedent for that. In fact it's much more likely that we look for a coach who wants to work with Sam and he's a selling point for a potential coach.

 

If he's not a selling point, than he probably didn't show the improvement you want to see in a young QB and we'll need a QB any way.

 

And with the potential depth of this draft at QB, I'd be pretty upset if we didn't draft a QB or two, since we'll only have Sam and possibly Fromm.

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, MartinC said:

Draft an OT, continue to build around Sam based off a good first year starting and see if he can make a second year bounce.

 

I do think the most likely outcome though is that you are right and Sam as the starter is tied at the hip to Ron.

 

Is Sanders the QB3 at this point? JJ McCarthy?

 

If we're being real, then we recognize that there are going to be a lot of games like last Sunday's.  And without the wins to protect Ron's job, Sam loses his job protection too.  A new FO is not going to pick up Ron's late round project where he left off when the QB couldn't save his job, and there is no sunk cost pressure to get ownership to sell the kid to new hires.  This, along with the fact I don't trust Josh Harris to hire better replacements based on what he's done with the 6ers and the fact that new NFL owners almost always drastically **** up their initial hires, are the two biggest reasons I don't want us to fire Ron.  I want Ron and company to see this thing through, especially with Howell.  I think they are Howell's only real chance of developing into a good player here.  And I think Howell's development + the maintenance of the defense are our tickets to honest contention.

 

As for QB3, I am having a hard time seeing it with JJ McCarthy.  I lean toward Shadeur Sanders, but he still has a lot of proving left to do, and I am not a fan of the circus that his dad is going to bring to his career.  Amazon shows being made about the kid before he even sets foot in the building just seems like a recipe for disaster here.

[MartinC]

30 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

As for QB3, I am having a hard time seeing it with JJ McCarthy.  I lean toward Shadeur Sanders, but he still has a lot of proving left to do, and I am not a fan of the circus that his dad is going to bring to his career.  Amazon shows being made about the kid before he even sets foot in the building just seems like a recipe for disaster here.

I kind of agree with you on the circus around his dad (I’m not a fan of Deion from a personality perspective at all - but you can’t argue with what’s he achieved as an athlete and now starting to achieve as a coach). But if Sanders keeps playing the ways he’s started he’s going to be hard to overlook. 
 

I’ve not watched a lot of McCarthy but he makes NFL type throws and has enough mobility to extend plays. If we are picking mid teens I can see the top two plus Sanders being gone and it being McCarthy as QB4 who is the option.
 

But if Howell continues to show development I’d stick with him, look to shore up the O’Line plus upgrade at RB and LB and replace (likely) Young at one DE spot. 

[KDawg]

Howell’s status is not tied to Rivera. It’s tied to his performance + the quarterback market (draft and FA).

 

Sure, a new regime may want to get their own guys in… but if there is no one better than Howell that’s a really stupid way to start a new regime off with. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Hurts survived a coaching change and he was considered still unproven at the time. Daniel Jones was a borderline punchline at the time and also survived a coaching change. Both QBs played better with the new coaching regimes 

 

The idea that a new coach is going to dump Howell feels far fetched unless he really stinks it up this year.

 

As @Koolblue13said if anything a new coach would likely try to sell themselves if anything as the ticket for Howell to take the next step.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

If Howell plays well he'll survive a coaching change. Then again, if Howell plays well, it probably means we win 10+ games in which case the chances of Rivera being fired are pretty low.

[Darth Tater]

9 hours ago, Going Commando said:

If Josh Harris replaces the Rivera regime, then that'll be it for Sam Howell.  I could definitely see a new regime trading up for a QB.  The problem is it won't be to get to #2 because the teams who are picking top 2 in this class just aren't going to give up Williams or Maye.  They are too special.  So we're talking about trading up for QB3 most likely, and that makes my stomach churn.

Don't agree.  I think Rivera needs to win at least 1 playoff game with Howell as his guy to have any chance to keep his job.  We get to the playoffs (though we lose our first game) or are the first or second team out of them, Rivera will likely be gone and EB probably gets the first bite of the apple. This scenario would mean that most likely the Howell experiment showed enough promise and probably go oline if one is available. If the Howell experiment falls on its ass due to Howell's failure, Harris replaces Rivera and we move up to find another QB.  In this case, we do need to move on from Howell, anyway. This third scenario is the only one where I see us moving on from Howell.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Hurts survived a coaching change and he was considered still unproven at the time. Daniel Jones was a borderline punchline at the time and also survived a coaching change. Both QBs played better with the new coaching regimes 

 

The idea that a new coach is going to dump Howell feels far fetched unless he really stinks it up this year.

 

As @Koolblue13said if anything a new coach would likely try to sell themselves if anything as the ticket for Howell to take the next step.

 

Howie Roseman didn't get fired, and one of the reasons Pederson did get fired is because he didn't want to play Hurts.  Daniel Jones was a high first round pick.  There are no guard rails like that for Howell's career here.

 

And I'm surprised that you all apparently think there is a likely scenario where Howell plays so well that a new coaching staff would be sold on him, but that this team would still lose so many games that Rivera gets fired.  That's just not going to happen.  This team is not going to lose games in spite of Howell, he's the shakiest part of the team and the biggest unknown.  If anything, they're going to win games in spite of him like they did last Sunday.  His future is absolutely tied to Rivera's, and if Rivera goes, his future will be hanging by a thread.

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Howie Roseman didn't get fired, and one of the reasons Pederson did get fired is because he didn't want to play Hurts.  Daniel Jones was a high first round pick.  There are no guard rails like that for Howell's career here.

 

And I'm surprised that you all apparently think there is a likely scenario where Howell plays so well that a new coaching staff would be sold on him, but that this team would still lose so many games that Rivera gets fired.  That's just not going to happen.  This team is not going to lose games in spite of Howell, he's the shakiest part of the team and the biggest unknown.  If anything, they're going to win games in spite of him like they did last Sunday.  His future is absolutely tied to Rivera's, and if Rivera goes, his future will be hanging by a thread.

Excuse me… Howell is the shakiest part of this team? A few weeks ago weren’t you selling that you loved Howell? And now you’re saying he’s shakier than our line? It’s starting to get crazy.

[Going Commando]

15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Excuse me… Howell is the shakiest part of this team? A few weeks ago weren’t you selling that you loved Howell? And now you’re saying he’s shakier than our line? It’s starting to get crazy.

 

Yes he absolutely is, and that is obvious to everyone in the football world outside of this fanbase.  This is going to be a rough season full of growing pains for him, and the team is going to have to carry him while he learns on the job.  I do like Howell, I want to see him succeed, and I don't have delusions that it would happen after a full regime change.

[Koolblue13]

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Excuse me… Howell is the shakiest part of this team? A few weeks ago weren’t you selling that you loved Howell? And now you’re saying he’s shakier than our line? It’s starting to get crazy.

OL, TE, LB are all ahead of Sams learning curve. Sam is not the problem.

 

At least that we know.

 

And of course a QB can play well and the team still lose. Look at the Thursday night game. Kurt Cousins had an incredible game and Hurts did not. Eagles won.

 

I probably should have been replying to steve. I was trying to agree with you and then ....rant.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Yes he absolutely is, and that is obvious to everyone in the football world outside of this fanbase.  This is going to be a rough season full of growing pains for him, and the team is going to have to carry him while he learns on the job.  I do like Howell, I want to see him succeed, and I don't have delusions that it would happen after a full regime change.

It’s not. But okay.

[The Rook]

There absolutely exists a paradigm where Josh Harris wants a new coach and GM AND those people want to keep Sam Howell, regardless of the record  To deny this possibility is just silly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[MartinC]

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

If Howell plays well he'll survive a coaching change. Then again, if Howell plays well, it probably means we win 10+ games in which case the chances of Rivera being fired are pretty low.

With our schedule I can absolutely see a scenario in which Howell plays well and shows progress but we lose some games narrowly and end up in the 8 win range. That’s only 2 games under 10 - but I think those 2 games would make a big difference to Ron’s job security. 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

Howie Roseman didn't get fired, and one of the reasons Pederson did get fired is because he didn't want to play Hurts.  Daniel Jones was a high first round pick.  There are no guard rails like that for Howell's career here.

 

And I'm surprised that you all apparently think there is a likely scenario where Howell plays so well that a new coaching staff would be sold on him, but that this team would still lose so many games that Rivera gets fired.  That's just not going to happen.  This team is not going to lose games in spite of Howell, he's the shakiest part of the team and the biggest unknown.  If anything, they're going to win games in spite of him like they did last Sunday.  His future is absolutely tied to Rivera's, and if Rivera goes, his future will be hanging by a thread.

If we lose games because of Howell and Ron gets fired he’s likely toast as a starter - at the very minimum a new staff will be looking very hard at alternatives in free agency or the draft. 
 

But I wouldn’t say we won last Sunday in spite of Howell. Overall I thought he played well - and people who know a lot more than me about QB play broke down tape and thought overall he played well too. Mistakes for sure and eliminating (or at least minimizing) them is part of the progress you want to see over the course of the season. 

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, MartinC said:

If we lose games because of Howell and Ron gets fired he’s likely toast as a starter - at the very minimum a new staff will be looking very hard at alternatives in free agency or the draft. 
 

But I wouldn’t say we won last Sunday in spite of Howell. Overall I thought he played well - and people who know a lot more than me about QB play broke down tape and thought overall he played well too. Mistakes for sure and eliminating (or at least minimizing) them is part of the progress you want to see over the course of the season. 

There is some really interesting mental gymnastics to not blame the OL.

 

I agree with you.

[XxSpearheadxX]

I have a lot of faith in Sam still. I'm betting on him getting better each week with the occasional set back because of OLine / the defense being paid also. But he doesn't get shook

[Skinsinparadise]

On 9/16/2023 at 3:41 PM, Going Commando said:

 

Howie Roseman didn't get fired, and one of the reasons Pederson did get fired is because he didn't want to play Hurts.  Daniel Jones was a high first round pick.  There are no guard rails like that for Howell's career here.

 

And I'm surprised that you all apparently think there is a likely scenario where Howell plays so well that a new coaching staff would be sold on him, but that this team would still lose so many games that Rivera gets fired.  That's just not going to happen.  This team is not going to lose games in spite of Howell, he's the shakiest part of the team and the biggest unknown.  If anything, they're going to win games in spite of him like they did last Sunday.  His future is absolutely tied to Rivera's, and if Rivera goes, his future will be hanging by a thread.

 

I read a long article about the scouting of Hurts and it was Peterson who drove both the scouting of Hurts and that pick and by a mile.  Without Pederson they would have unlikely grabbed him in the 2nd.  

The Giants changed both their FO and coaching staff. Jones was on the ropes at that time but they rode it anyway with him.  I doubt it was only because he was a first round pick. 
 

Using words like absolutely about this or that. How can you be absolutely sure of any of this? 
 

As for Howell. I don’t think he’s the weak link of the team. I think it’s the O line. But will see. I expect ups and downs with young QBs who have only started 2 games. I am not looking for Howell to kill it.
 

 I am looking for him to flash. And it’s plausible to me that he can flash and maybe they win 8 games where another coach would be plenty intrigued to develop him some more. And I presume give him a better O line to facilitate greater success 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Been watching some of that game. Brutal. 
 

Alabama doesn’t have a QB. Looks like a long season for them 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Switched to watching the Georgia-South Carolina game. It’s adding to my Brock Bowers man crush he’s a YAC machine and tone setter 

[HigSkin]

Just for context I know Joe Burrow and I believe Justin Herbert played behind bad olines their 1st year so I have faith Howell can do it and show he's a worthy QB in this league.

 

I mean he's got to be better already than any of these QB3's, right?

 

Rattler looked like an all pro the first half vs GA then came back to earth.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by HigSkin

[Going Commando]

51 minutes ago, KDawg said:

There is some really interesting mental gymnastics to not blame the OL.

 

I agree with you.

 

Mental gymnastics?  No, you guys were just wrong about how bad the OL is.  The mental gymnastics going on here are you all convincing yourselves that there is some likely path for Sam Howell to survive a full regime change.  That's just not a take based in reality.  He's not a 10 year vet Kirk Cousins who is going to be throwing for 300 yards and 4 TDs in thrilling losses.  This defense isn't crap.  If Sam plays well enough to show any kind of promise for the future, then the team will win a ton of games and everyone calling for Rivera to be fired won't have a leg to stand on.  They share the same fate here.