Welcome to the Commanders Emmanuel Forbes CB Mississippi State

[skinny21]

44 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  Kyle Smith elevated Gribble to head of scouting and looks like he's really good as his job.

 

I don't love this FO overall macro take on building a roster or for the most part care for their trades-FO with the exception of their first year -- same year when Kyle was still here.  

 

But I think they draft well.  Nothing out of this world.  But the drafting IMO is good and I presume Gribble has much to do with it.

It’s interesting, and a little difficult to judge when looking back at the drafts.  Chase with the major injury, Mathis missing his first year and now IR’d again (and so a complete unknown), St Juste and Turner looking like good talents but both missing a lot of time, Charles dinged up constantly, and Robinson’s crazy start to his rookie year.  

There’s Cheeseman’s sudden issues (he was solid at worst his first 2 years, even if I think trading up for him wasn’t smart), and serious questions about how several guys were integrated/used - Cosmi at tackle rather than guard, Gibson used more as a bellcow instead of as an x-factor, Jamin and Martin both being given a variety of roles to start out instead of just planting them at one spot.

Seems like this year could provide some clarity in judging many of these guys…

[Skinsinparadise]

Gonzalez with another big day.  I didn't really pay that much attention to Forbes so not sure how his day was one way or another.  Fuller seemed to have a good game though and is having a good season

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

20 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree with most of this.  I think they especially in the first round fall in love with a player they expect to be there for them.  I recall after they took Jamin Davis, Ron explaining about Jamin's military family and delving into his interview of him and how he fell hard for the dude.  It feels like Ron gets especially involved with the first round.

 

It's also a product of a FO which drafts to need.  When you are generally poor at using trades-FA to bolster your roster, the draft becomes even more important to fill your needs.  Tim Gribble is a good evaluator it seems so I suspect they are comfortable with him filling out their shopping list.  But when you lock on a position or two per round, you miss on opportunities of other players falling.    

 

Their love of Forbes was no secret.  It allowed the Pats to maneuver in that round without worry since they clearly weren't targeting him.  

I think it expends past the first round. Certainly applies to day 2 picks as well, I’d say the trend started way back on the Gibson pick for example. On balance we’ve drafted well. However the whole process smacks of being quite rigid and fixed, without much innovation and flexibility built in. It’s all very medium isn’t it.

[Koolblue13]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

 

That was last week.  Yesterday i did notice him get beat a couple of times but aside from that I wasn't really paying that much attention including versus the run.  If I had to pick on a concern about him it would be the thought at the time we drafted him whether he would hold up against the run.  So far, he hasn't.   But I don't know what happened yesterday on that front. 

 

That's why when some say Forbes isn't that far off as a specimen from Gonzalez considering their similar height -- feels a bit wild to me.  A 30 pounds difference is a really big difference.  It's not a minor at best plot line.  it's a major plot line.   And the idea that if Forbes put on major weight, lets say he matches that 30 pounds and expect hm to run the same is likely fantasy.  Back when I used to run, I felt 5-6 pounds either way effected me as to short speed.  30 pounds would be a ridiculous factor.  

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I think it expends past the first round. Certainly applies to day 2 picks as well, I’d say the trend started way back on the Gibson pick for example. On balance we’ve drafted well. However the whole process smacks of being quite rigid and fixed, without much innovation and flexibility built in. It’s all very medium isn’t it.

 

Lack of imagination I agree.  Rigid.  They draft well.  They don't seem to draft superstars.  If I recall no pro bowlers in the mix of the players they drafted aside from Chase in year 1.  The pro bowlers are from Jay's era.  But they draft their share of good players.

 

Overall as to roster building.  So so to good.  Somewhere within that range IMO.   I've rated them C plus-B minus level when I factor everything.

 

If the idea is to replicate Dan's heyday years in the mix of the misery.  That is, the up and down Gibbs 2 years -- peaking at 9-7, 10-6.  Or Jay's 9-7-8-7-1 years.  I think Ron can do it probably in year 5, maybe this year but I doubt it.   

 

He hasn't matched either coach's peak thus far but I think he has it in him to do it.  But I don't think he has it in him to make a consistent winner or a serious SB threat.  

 

I get those who don't like change and preach continuity.  But sometimes you got to rip the bandaid off and take chances.  For example, I wasn't sure about Mike McDaniel.  He strike me a bit weird and a boom-bust type coach.  But look what he's doing in Miami.    High ceiling coach, clearly. 

[method man]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Lack of imagination I agree.  Rigid.  They draft well.  They don't seem to draft superstars.  If I recall no pro bowlers in the mix of the players they drafted aside from Chase in year 1.  The pro bowlers are from Jay's era.  But they draft their share of good players.

 

Overall as to roster building.  So so to good.  Somewhere within that range IMO.   I've rated them C plus-B minus level when I factor everything.

 

If the idea is to replicate Dan's heyday years in the mix of the misery.  That is, the up and down Gibbs 2 years -- peaking at 9-7, 10-6.  Or Jay's 9-7-8-7-1 years.  I think Ron can do it probably in year 5, maybe this year but I doubt it.   

 

He hasn't matched either coach's peak thus far but I think he has it in him to do it.  But I don't think he has it in him to make a consistent winner or a serious SB threat.  

 

I get those who don't like change and preach continuity.  But sometimes you got to rip the bandaid off and take chances.  For example, I wasn't sure about Mike McDaniel.  He strike me a bit weird and a boom-bust type coach.  But look what he's doing in Miami.    High ceiling coach, clearly. 

From their Carolina days, Shaq Thompson is their quintessential pick. Rock solid long time starter at a devalued position who has never made a Pro Bowl. Jamin is version 2.0 of this

[Going Commando]

Forbes got injured yesterday and I couldn't find him in the second half.  Any word on what it was?

[Warhead36]

I think we effed up. Forbes might end up being pretty good but Gonzalez will be a perennial All Pro.

 

 

[Going Commando]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If I recall no pro bowlers in the mix of the players they drafted aside from Chase in year 1.  The pro bowlers are from Jay's era.  But they draft their share of good players.

 

They did a bad job in the off-seasons in year one and two.  That's why you haven't seen early Probowlers other than Chase, who was a stud and superstar talent before the knee injury (and maybe still is).  But they did better in year three and four and we're gonna see some Probowlers from this group eventually IMO, because Forbes and Dotson and Robinson have that kind of upside.  They also had the cupboard robbed a little bit by the Sweat pick IIRC, as they didn't have a second in 2020.

 

If I didn't like the 22 and 23 draft and free agency classes we got, and I didn't like the EB hire so much, I would be there with you on wanting to see change.  And it might be that Howell doesn't work out and the EB hire doesn't materialize like I'm expecting and it'll be obviously time for change at the end of the year.  But I am still optimistic that the build is good, Howell is worth sticking with and developing, and that EB is a great coach who is going to get things figured out.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

I looked hard for any injury relating to Forbes but didn't see anything.   I watched a postgame interview with him and no mention of it.  He did get less reps than other games if that's what you are referencing or did you see him get hurt if so I missed it?

 

 

 

Don't know if his game was that rough.  Like I said I didn't pay attention to it.  got no idea where this dude get his stats.  But I saw it when I just did a twitter search of Forbes

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

24 minutes ago, method man said:

From their Carolina days, Shaq Thompson is their quintessential pick. Rock solid long time starter at a devalued position who has never made a Pro Bowl. Jamin is version 2.0 of this

 

Why him and not Kuechly or McCaffrey or Newton or Josh Norman or Kawann Short or Trai Turner?  Those Panthers teams had a lot more Pro-Bowlers and All Pros on them than we have had, and haven't had a single one since Rivera got fired from there.

[Going Commando]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He did get less reps than other games if that's what you are referencing or did you see him get hurt if so I missed it?

 

I'm not sure any more, but I thought I saw him get hurt in the second half, but I don't remember when it was specifically, and I don't know if he came back in later.

[formerly4skins]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I think we effed up. Forbes might end up being pretty good but Gonzalez will be a perennial All Pro.

 

 

Pretty unbelievable that the FO had both those CBs sitting right in front of them for the taking and decided, "let's draft the guy who's the size of a sturdy 8th grader."

Edited September 25, 2023 by formerly4skins

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

They did a bad job in the off-seasons in year one and two.  That's why you haven't seen early Probowlers other than Chase, who was a stud and superstar talent before the knee injury (and maybe still is).  But they did better in year three and four and we're gonna see some Probowlers from this group eventually IMO, because Forbes and Dotson and Robinson have that kind of upside.  They also had the cupboard robbed a little bit by the Sweat pick IIRC, as they didn't have a second in 2020.

 

If I didn't like the 22 and 23 draft and free agency classes we got, and I didn't like the EB hire so much, I would be there with you on wanting to see change.  And it might be that Howell doesn't work out and the EB hire doesn't materialize like I'm expecting and it'll be obviously time for change at the end of the year.  But I am still optimistic that the build is good, Howell is worth sticking with and developing, and that EB is a great coach who is going to get things figured out.

 

I thought their one good FA off season was year 1.  That was when Kyle Smith was still here.  After that "meh" at best.

 

Yeah I don't see much good with the 2022 and 2023 FA that you tout.  Actually in 2022 they did practically nothing.  Rivera cited later that the Wentz trade consumed most of their budget.   Norwell, Trai Truner "meh" IMO.  The 2023 FA class, Barton seems to be off to a slow start.  I know you like Wylie but as I digested it over time, I think that signing sucked.  Gates is an OK signing.    My issue with both FA classes is more driven by what they didn't do versus what they did do. 

 

And him overpaying for Wentz and then crowing about how they are going to climb and win in season 3 and then backing off those comments when cornered by reporters after that season was borderline embarassing.

 

As for the draft, I like the 2022 draft.  That might end up being their best.  I got some doubts about the 2023 draft although they took some players i like.  But for now it seems like its not going to be a class that heavily contributes in 2023.  My gut right now is that draft ages to average to slightly above but this season it does almost nothing for the roster.

 

As for Bieiniemy I liked the hire.  But he's also an unknown.  So you got me how it plays out.  So far I like the narrative around Bieniemy more than the actual play calling but the season is still young.  Just in general I think the season needs to play out to judge everything.  So far their record and wins and losses are exactly what I predicted.  So I am not lower or higher on this team than the start of the season.  But my mind is open either way if things unfold differently than what I expect. 

 

My main point about moving on from Ron is I don't think he's great at either function coaching or GM -- and IMO you need to have Marvel Superhero type powers to be successful in both roles.  Also sometimes the two roles are in conflict with each other.  I believe in a point you've espoused before which is the structure of the FO isn't hot with Rivera is in charge.  You've seemed to change your mind on that.  My thought was I was a big on a GM centric model pre Ron.  But I was OK with Ron being the Czar of this organization when Dan was here because it would prevent Dan from becoming the defacto GM.

 

But now that Dan is gone we can dream bigger than having a dude who is decent at their job but not great.  I am not as concerned as you are about continuity.  But my larger point is even if I embraced continuity, my feeling is this team has almost no chance to play in the big dance with Ron in charge of BOTH the FO and coaching.  I can swallow the coaching if I must.  But IMO Ron isn't some sort of football God that can excel in both roles.  I can argue individually he's far from excellent in either roles.  But I am not counting on him being the Thor version of the NFL by both being a killler good personnel guy and killer good coach.  If someone wants to convince me, keep him as a coach without the GM powers, I still don't like our chances to win but I don't think its mission imposssible.  But both roles, no way with me. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, formerly4skins said:

Pretty unbelievable that the FO had both those CBs sitting right in front of them for the taking and decided, "let's draft the guy who's the size of a sturdy 8th grader."

Someone mentioned the theory that the FO didn't do much research on Gonzalez because they didn't think he'd be available, so even when he was, they reached to take their guy in Forbes because they knew him more. Which, if true, is an even bigger indictment. Unless its an Andrew Luck type QB you have no idea how the draft will play out and should do your research on everyone within reason.

 

That and the over emphasis on generating takeaways, not realizing that takeaways are often a very volatile and fluky stat and not one to rely on. Give me the guy that locks down his man every time.

[Skinsinparadise]

PFF did a recap with a mention of Forbes

 

Rookie spotlight: Washington rookie Emmanuel Forbes played 28 snaps on defense, with 16 coming in coverage. He was thrown at three times, allowing a catch on all three occasions for 34 yards, including one first down. He did come up with a defensive stop, but that good play will be offset by a missed tackle elsewhere on his tape.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-3-game-recap-buffalo-bills-37-washington-commanders-3

 

[Warhead36]

I do recall him giving up a big catch to Diggs but it was on a play where Allen scrambled and bought time.

 

Allen to Diggs is just a really tough matchup to beat. Most CBs will get their rear ends handed to them.

[Skinsinparadise]

Forbes got his run grade up a little with PFF

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim referenced Forbes in his last podcast.  Bram asked about Forbes only playing 40% of the reps.  Keim said that's because right now he's not considered a starter.  He's their #3 corner.  Right now they believe that Fuller and St. Juste are better.   

[Warhead36]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim referenced Forbes in his last podcast.  Bram asked about Forbes only playing 40% of the reps.  Keim said that's because right now he's not considered a starter.  He's their #3 corner.  Right now they believe that Fuller and St. Juste are better.   

I mean Fuller has been grading out really well and St. Juste when healthy is a quality CB. I'm surprised at 40% though as I figure teams would be in nickel more, but maybe the Bills having a big lead cut that down. Remember also the Broncos had a big lead and might not have been in as much nickel as well.

[bowhunter]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:38 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

.  Back when I used to run, I felt 5-6 pounds either way effected me as to short speed.  30 pounds would be a ridiculous factor.  

Were you a sprinter? While long distance runners feel every pound they carry, Football is a quick speed game. 10-15 pounds of lower body mass should only help his burst. Now, adding 10-15 to his upper torso will make him a bit more able to handle contact, it probably will slow him a bit. Hopefully there's someone on the staff who knows this lol

[NewCliche21]

If I'm gathering it correctly, I feel like SIP is saying that Ron sets these very clear measures, which is great. "By time X we will have achieved goal Y."

Then it objectively (Wentz in this case) doesn't happen, and he kinda shrugs and mumbles a moved goalpost.

I respect him setting goals. I hate his lack of self-accountability.

[tmandoug1]

I watched the play where Forbes got burned by Simms Jr. I was thinking pick the whole way.......but he never caught up to him. I realize they are close in 40 time and he had to turn to cover. Isn't that why we picked him? My brain had him being the next D. Green. Hoping for growth and shake off the newbie jitters.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, bowhunter said:

Were you a sprinter? While long distance runners feel every pound they carry, Football is a quick speed game. 10-15 pounds of lower body mass should only help his burst. Now, adding 10-15 to his upper torso will make him a bit more able to handle contact, it probably will slow him a bit. Hopefully there's someone on the staff who knows this lol

 

I used to run 100.  I was really good at short distance.   I don't know about 10-15 lower body mass helping his burst.   When I sprint my calves and ankles give me that initial push.   I don't think having more weight helps.  Then its just you ability to move your legs quickly -- twichiness.  It helps that i have long legs and a short torso.

 

It's not that easy at least it wasn't for me and some of my friends to fully control where the weight is going when we'd put weight on even if we were doing it with a muscle emphasis.  It is easier till this day for me to put muscle in some areas of my body versus others.   I get the point of doing leg work and just putting on the pounds just there in theory.  But I've noticed some dudes with super skinny legs have a hard time building muscle and adding weight there.   

 

As for someone on the staff knowing this. I am sure.  I've heard no one mention from the team Forbes putting on 30 pounds.  they have talked about him putting on some weight and he already has i believe.

 

From my own experience, when I put on some weight, lets say 7-8 pounds let alone 30, it does effect my speed a little and not in a good way.  When I was in top shape I ran a 4.4 at the NFL SB Experience a few years ago.  I don't believe I ran that fast.  I think it was really like 4.5 and their timer was off but it was still lol probably my last hurrah as a runner.  I am not the same now.  I ran against 7 other people, including my son, some of whom were teens and I came in first.

 

A couple of years later, my son who is a teen, beat me.  I was about 7 pounds heavier and I just didn't feel springy like i did then.  Granted the weight i put on wasn't good weight.  I've since taken that extra weight off so lol I am tempted to race my son again. 

 

But the idea of a scrawny guy like Forbes putting on 30 pounds of muscle i don't think is easy.  But I could be wrong.  Our resident weightlifter @KDawg knows better than I do on that front.  As for it helping his burst, I doubt it but I admit I am an not 100% sure.  I know I am faster when I am lighter.  

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Skinsinparadise