The Official 2023 ES Free Agency Thread... available until Free Agency 2024 begins

[MrJL]

Cowboys signed La'el Collins. I was hoping to pick him up at the end of the season

[88Comrade2000]

Allen is going to want out. I think Terry would love to go also.

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:04 PM, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

I don't know what Jon Allen's trade value is. Makes the most sense to part with him though. He's been a loyal player but get him to a competitor and hit reset. 

 

 

......and Allen to a competitor for a 2nd.....

 

 

 

 

What's with this "trade Allen to a competitor" ****? **** that, its not our priority to get him somewhere that he wants to be. We paid him a big contract, and a lot of these games we lost (over the years) he was non existent when we needed him at critical points of games. We're damner the worst team in the league with the worse defense. I like John Allen, but he doesnt need to go to a "competitor", he needs to go to whoever offers us the BEST trade offer. If that team's in Alaska, tell his ass to dress warm. That goes for ANYONE on this team, Terry included. 

[Est.1974]

13 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

You gotta pay somebody. It’s not like we’re hurting for cap room. And it’s not like those guys are bums. 
 

And I otherwise disagree with your statement. That’s what Bruce Allen bargain shopping will do to a team. 
 

It’s okay to pay good players. Payne/Allen/TMac earned their deals. They’ll be nice pieces for a new coach. 

None of those players will be interested in a 2-3 year rebuild, so it all depends on the vision of ownership in the early offseason. If they intend to blitz free agency and spend big, go all in for a QB in the draft etc, maybe they stay.

 

I also think if Allen is traded, Payne ain’t going to be arsed in the upcoming season. That’s my personal take. 
 

One way or the other we need to plough a stack of resources into rebuilding the offence from the ground up. If we have to sacrifice a couple of DT’s in the process, so be it.

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

None of those players will be interested in a 2-3 year rebuild, so it all depends on the vision of ownership in the early offseason. If they intend to blitz free agency and spend big, go all in for a QB in the draft etc, maybe they stay.

 

I also think if Allen is traded, Payne ain’t going to be arsed in the upcoming season. That’s my personal take. 
 

One way or the other we need to plough a stack of resources into rebuilding the offence from the ground up. If we have to sacrifice a couple of DT’s in the process, so be it.

We have a ton of great picks and $90 mil in cap space. We don't have to sacrifice a couple of DTs.

 

I remember the 49ers making an awesome trade of Buckner and then using the 7th pick to replace him, because it hurt their team, him busting and them signing a $40mil per year DT to replace him. That sound like a solid plan or a mistake? 

 

Give up what's about to be our only strength on D to add a potentially non starter on offense? 

 

We're going to draft heavy on offense with what we already have, which is rich in picks and use FA to address most of the D issues.

 

New coordinators will make a world of difference as well. 

[Est.1974]

50 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We have a ton of great picks and $90 mil in cap space. We don't have to sacrifice a couple of DTs.

 

I remember the 49ers making an awesome trade of Buckner and then using the 7th pick to replace him, because it hurt their team, him busting and them signing a $40mil per year DT to replace him. That sound like a solid plan or a mistake? 

 

Give up what's about to be our only strength on D to add a potentially non starter on offense? 

 

We're going to draft heavy on offense with what we already have, which is rich in picks and use FA to address most of the D issues.

 

New coordinators will make a world of difference as well. 

That may be true. Something tells me the whole roster needs a deep clean and purge. But we will see.

[MrJL]

9 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

That may be true. Something tells me the whole roster needs a deep clean and purge. But we will see.

We've got like 18 free agents. 

[skinsfan66]

Why rush a trade now there is no cap problem and no need just to get extra picks. If you want more picks trade down not up.  If you were to trade them and sign replacements in Free Agencey it has effects on comp picks. We have several free agents that could sign else were.  Every time we have to sign one we lose picks for the ones we lose. Eagles, Ravens always have a few to several comp picks for the next year. If you use our own draft picks on replacements for the trades it takes away from filling other needs. For me we have enough spots to fill and want to use the draft to fill them. The players who sign away I want to use their picks for next year. It would be different if Allen, Terry were in a contract year. We already traded what was needed and got comp. But it is just my opinion.

[Chris 44]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

We have a ton of great picks and $90 mil in cap space. We don't have to sacrifice a couple of DTs.

 

I remember the 49ers making an awesome trade of Buckner and then using the 7th pick to replace him, because it hurt their team, him busting and them signing a $40mil per year DT to replace him. That sound like a solid plan or a mistake? 

 

Give up what's about to be our only strength on D to add a potentially non starter on offense? 

 

We're going to draft heavy on offense with what we already have, which is rich in picks and use FA to address most of the D issues.

 

New coordinators will make a world of difference as well. 

All new front office and coaches could make a world of difference on each players perception of this franchise going forward. Extremely premature to ponder letting guys walk at this point. Have to let it play out over the next couple of months. A week from now there will be a better sense of what direction we will be taking even if certain front office positions have not been named. We have been mired in dysfunction for so long I think it may well be a revelation to players once we have a legit front office structure / plan in place. 

[Conn]

26 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Why rush a trade now there is no cap problem and no need just to get extra picks. If you want more picks trade down not up.  If you were to trade them and sign replacements in Free Agencey it has effects on comp picks. We have several free agents that could sign else were.  Every time we have to sign one we lose picks for the ones we lose. Eagles, Ravens always have a few to several comp picks for the next year. If you use our own draft picks on replacements for the trades it takes away from filling other needs. For me we have enough spots to fill and want to use the draft to fill them. The players who sign away I want to use their picks for next year. It would be different if Allen, Terry were in a contract year. We already traded what was needed and got comp. But it is just my opinion.

We’re not getting any comp picks from our departing players this offseason, we’re about to go hog wild in FA to some degree

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Posted this in the draft thread too, think it belongs in both places:

 

We really do not have many player under contract for 2024. I count 44 players, and I would say a good 7-8 of those players are likely camp bodies or never get to camp via releases. This doesn't count 5-6 players I think man here expect to be cut (Leno, Wylie, Gates, Thomas) or traded (Allen).

 

Without doing anything we are already in a position for a near roster turnover. Taking out the cut candidates (let's assume 50% are cut/traded of the 6 listed) that puts us down to 32-33 players that are currently on the roster that we should realistically expect back. 

 

Bottom line: Lots of work to do ...

 

Most work to be done with: OG, DE, OT, CB, LB, RB, WR

 

Offense (24)

QB (2): S. Howell, J. Fromm

RB (2): B. Robinson, C. Rodriguez

WR (5): T. McLaurin, J. Dotson, D. Brown, D. Milne, M. Tinsley

TE (5): L. Thomas, J. Bates, C. Turner, C. Hodges, A. Rodgers

OT (6): C. Leno, A. Wylie, T. Scott, B. Daniels, J. Good-Jones, A. Akingbulu

OG (2): S. Cosmi, C. Paul

OC (2): N. Gates, R. Stromberg

 

Defense (18)

DE (5): K. Henry, A. Jones, S. Toney, J. Harris, J. Pryor

DT (4): J. Allen, D. Payne, P. Mathis, J. Ridgeway

LB (1): J. Davis

S (3): Q. Martin, P. Butler, D. Forrest

CB (5): E. Forbes, B. St. Juste, C. Holmes, T. Castro-Fields, K. Blu-Kelly

 

ST (2): T. Way, T. Addington

 

[skinsfan66]

6 minutes ago, Conn said:

We’re not getting any comp picks from our departing players this offseason, we’re about to go hog wild in FA to some degree

No we are not, like I said we have players that could leave and sign with other teams, the comp picks are for next year. But if you sign free agents to replace open holes left by more trades it will reduce or eliminate them.   We have got a 2nd and 3rd for comp of Sweat and Young for me that is enough, trade down if you want more. I hope we do not go Hog wild in FA. I want to use the draft, collect picks for next year too. No reason to go and blow up the cap either. What has FA ever done for us in the past. Just a different opinion here.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

If we were to:

Trade Jon Allen 

Cut Logan Thomas

 

We go into the off-season with:

$94.9m in cap space

Rollover: $8m

$102.9m in cap space

 

More realistically, if you remove the 6-7 players at the back-end of the roster (Granted, not high salaries) who are simply camp bodies, our true cap space for the roughly 33 remaining players is:

$101.4m in cap space

Rollover: $8m

$109.4m in cap space to fill 22-24 roster spots

 

 

If you include Charles Leno as a post-June 1st cut candidate, you're looking at:

$113.4m in cap space + $8m rollover cap from 2023 and $121.4m in true cap space before FA and draft pool are factored in. We'd also have $155m in 2025 as well, and $236m in 2026. 

 

We should be able to virtually do whatever we want this off-season as far as signings go, should the FO choose to be aggressive. I assume they will make a couple big splashes, but may target 2025 FA cycle to be truly aggressive.

Edited January 5 by JamesMadisonSkins

[JamesMadisonSkins]

11 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

No we are not, like I said we have players that could leave and sign with other teams, the comp picks are for next year. But if you sign free agents to replace open holes left by more trades it will reduce or eliminate them.   We have got a 2nd and 3rd for comp of Sweat and Young for me that is enough, trade down if you want more. I hope we do not go Hog wild in FA. I want to use the draft, collect picks for next year too. No reason to go and blow up the cap either. What has FA ever done for us in the past. Just a different opinion here.

 

Agree to an extent. I think you can be surgical in free agency. You go sign a couple young building blocks at positions of dire need. Then you use the rest of the cap space to add talent for cheap, shorter-term deals, and set yourself up for future comp picks potentially. 

 

One-year prove-it contracts may be the specialty this off-season. 

Edited January 5 by JamesMadisonSkins

[skinsfan66]

5 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Agree to an extent. I think you can be surgical in free agency. You go sign a couple young building blocks at positions of dire need. Then you use the rest of the cap space to add talent for cheap, shorter-term deals, and set yourself up for future comp picks potentially. 

 

One-year prove-it contracts may be the specialty this off-season. 

There is also the second FA period that does not count against the comp picks, I think after the draft that can be used with the cap we have. Why trade anybody right now to open more holes to fill? I want to avoid the big ticket Free Agents as much as possible. Like I said the Ravens, Eagles, others always have a few more picks every draft because of Comp. Picks. No need to jump out and overspend in FA just because you have the cap. This is a rebuild and is not like we are a few players away. Have a big cap next year too, it maybe be the right time go big in FA. Not this year, just use the draft and minor FA if you need to fill holes. Trade down is a option. QB,OL,TE, Big WR in the draft.  

[skinny21]

I’ve been of the opinion that we should retain Leno for various reasons, similarly to how I thought we should hold onto Moses, but now I’m thinking I might rather re-sign Lucas and then cut Leno.  Save money, Lucas can play on both sides of the line, and if we wind up drafting two starting caliber OTs (not likely, but possible), we’re not paying big money to our swing tackle.  With that said, I might hold off on cutting Leno until post-draft.

 

I’d be a little surprised if the new staff slow plays the roster build/re-tool via going light on FA contracts.  They’re going to want to turn this around in a hurry, and it’s apparent this roster needs added quality more than need quantity.  Obviously they’ll need to add inexpensive FAs to fill out the roster, but I expect they’ll shoot for a few bigger names.  Now whether they can convince bigger names to sign here is a different story…

[Conn]

46 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

No we are not, like I said we have players that could leave and sign with other teams, the comp picks are for next year. But if you sign free agents to replace open holes left by more trades it will reduce or eliminate them.   We have got a 2nd and 3rd for comp of Sweat and Young for me that is enough, trade down if you want more. I hope we do not go Hog wild in FA. I want to use the draft, collect picks for next year too. No reason to go and blow up the cap either. What has FA ever done for us in the past. Just a different opinion here.

You would be doing a disservice to the young QB you draft not to use your cap space. Yeah, you can roll a ton over if you want (within reason, you still have to hit the salary floor over X number of years). But we’re going to be spending this offseason, and we should. I stand by my prediction that we will earn no compensatory picks next offseason for our departing FA class this offseason. We will spend too much. And that’s fine. You need a foundation to build from before you can start playing the Ravens/49ers compensatory pick game. We do not have that. We need to worry about assembling a good roster and developing a pipeline of drafted talent before we worry about earning comp picks from letting our players go.
 

I expect 2-3 premium signings and at least that many mid-tier signings. 
 

I would be fine with the strategy of signing those 1-year “prove-it” vet contracts that have a decent-sized cap hit, because those guys if they hit earn you comp picks when they hit FA again. But I do expect plenty of big and medium money long term signings.  

Edited January 5 by Conn

[method man]

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’ve been of the opinion that we should retain Leno for various reasons, similarly to how I thought we should hold onto Moses, but now I’m thinking I might rather re-sign Lucas and then cut Leno.  Save money, Lucas can play on both sides of the line, and if we wind up drafting two starting caliber OTs (not likely, but possible), we’re not paying big money to our swing tackle.  With that said, I might hold off on cutting Leno until post-draft.

 

I’d be a little surprised if the new staff slow plays the roster build/re-tool via going light on FA contracts.  They’re going to want to turn this around in a hurry, and it’s apparent this roster needs added quality more than need quantity.  Obviously they’ll need to add inexpensive FAs to fill out the roster, but I expect they’ll shoot for a few bigger names.  Now whether they can convince bigger names to sign here is a different story…

Lucas is a dude who can step in in a pinch and start a couple games for you but then he loses effectiveness if he has to start for a while. There was a reason he resigned here for $3m a year despite the starts he logged in 2020 and 2021.

 

I think you keep Leno because you can’t bank on a rookie 2nd round pick performing as a starter at LT. The toolsy guys are raw and the Jordan Morgans of the world lack the length. The only proven LT options in FA are Tyron Smith who will miss as many games as he plays and Trent Brown who was a healthy scratch last week for quitting on his team. 

[skinsfan66]

11 minutes ago, Conn said:

You would be doing a disservice to the young QB you draft not to use your cap space. Yeah, you can roll a ton over if you want (within reason, you still have to hit the salary floor over X number of years). But we’re going to be spending this offseason, and we should. I stand by my prediction that we will earn no compensatory picks next offseason for our departing FA class this offseason. We will spend too much. And that’s fine. You need a foundation to build from before you can start playing the Ravens/49ers compensatory pick game. We do not have that. We need to worry about assembling a good roster and developing a pipeline of drafted talent before we worry about earning comp picks from letting our players go.
 

I expect 2-3 premium signings and at least that many mid-tier signings. 

We have a difference of opinion, it's okay too. Whatever works either way. I also know we have to spend to NFL guide lines for each team. Also rookie QB's do not have to start their first season and I think he should sit anyway. I would use the draft for OL, TE after QB. You could sign Brissett or keep Howell depending on who you draft. Why not start off on the right foot like the Raven's, Eagles?

Edited January 5 by skinsfan66

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, MrJL said:

We've got like 18 free agents. 

Great

[Conn]

10 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

We have a difference of opinion, it's okay too. Whatever works either way. I also know we have to spend to NFL guide lines for each team. Also rookie QB's do not have to start their first season and I think he should sit anyway. I would use the draft for OL, TE after QB. You could sign Brissett or keep Howell depending on who you draft. Why not start off on the right foot like the Raven's, Eagles?

Lamar played right away, Wentz played right away and was great before his career fell apart. On the topic of the Ravens and Eagles. A good portion of the value of a young QB is their rookie contract and how it allows you to spend money on the rest of the roster—they need to play unless they’re truly developmental. The guys going in the top-3 will play, and their varying (but all at least ‘plus’) levels of mobility will help them adapt to the NFL. They’re not gonna sit.

Edited January 5 by Conn

[method man]

A dynamic that should help a lot when it comes to moving Allen is that both the FA and draft DT classes appear to suck. I think Seattle saw this and that was a big reason they gave up a 2 for Williams

[skinny21]

46 minutes ago, method man said:

Lucas is a dude who can step in in a pinch and start a couple games for you but then he loses effectiveness if he has to start for a while. There was a reason he resigned here for $3m a year despite the starts he logged in 2020 and 2021.

Not disagreeing with you, but I’m curious how you came to this conclusion?  

I’ll add that a part of my calculus, beyond saving 8-10mil or whatever to allocate elsewhere, was that Scott seemed to hold up vs Bosa (and our ground game was quite effective too).  Made me think maybe we could get by with the two of them (Lucas/Scott), along with Daniels and whatever OTs we draft (plus Cosmi and perhaps Wylie as emergency OTs).  But I’d still hold onto Leno until post-draft at the least in this scenario.

46 minutes ago, method man said:

 

I think you keep Leno because you can’t bank on a rookie 2nd round pick performing as a starter at LT. The toolsy guys are raw and the Jordan Morgans of the world lack the length. The only proven LT options in FA are Tyron Smith who will miss as many games as he plays and Trent Brown who was a healthy scratch last week for quitting on his team. 

I hear you on this.  While I’m looking forward to drafting an OT (plus a 2nd lineman that could hopefully play inside or out), I’m not getting my hopes up that they’ll be clear upgrades from day 1.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

9 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Not disagreeing with you, but I’m curious how you came to this conclusion?  

I’ll add that a part of my calculus, beyond saving 8-10mil or whatever to allocate elsewhere, was that Scott seemed to hold up vs Bosa (and our ground game was quite effective too).  Made me think maybe we could get by with the two of them (Lucas/Scott), along with Daniels and whatever OTs we draft (plus Cosmi and perhaps Wylie as emergency OTs).  But I’d still hold onto Leno until post-draft at the least in this scenario.

 

This is a good point. Essentially, could we get equal or better production from a veteran stopgap + rookie OT? From a cost standpoint, given the analytics bend of the likely new FO, this would be a perfect example of maximizing value. I keep going back and forth on this ...

 

Do you think Lucas = Leno? Does the gap between Lucas at $4m and Leno at $13m make a difference? If you cut Leno pre-June 1st you save just $7m. So does that $7m savings ($4m which would go to Lucas) really amount to much? Or do you keep the veteran presence around for one more year with Leno?

[philibusters]

There is a lot of moving parts, but my instinct would be to bring Leno back unless a really good opportunity presents itself at that position.