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Election 2024 & Presidential Cage Match: Dark Brandon 46 vs Demento Donny 45

88Comrade2000

By 88Comrade2000
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The Evil Genius

The Evil Genius

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You can see all that in 2 minutes in SF. Or Jacksonville. Or Gainesville. Or Orlando.

 

 

Homelessness, drug use, public defecation isn't only a SF issue. Or a "liberal" city/sanctuary city issue. It's likely happening because somehow in the last 50 years we've decided the pay gap between employee and employer should be widened so that employees don't make liveable wages anymore.

Edited by The Evil Genius
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Spearfeather

Spearfeather

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https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with-the-most-homeless-people

 

States with the highest rates of homelessness, calculated as the number of people experiencing homelessness per 1,000 residents in the state, were California, Vermont, Oregon and Hawaii. Washington, D.C., has a higher homelessness rate than any state, with over 6.5 people experiencing homelessness per 1,000 residents.

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CobraCommander

CobraCommander

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8 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with-the-most-homeless-people

 

States with the highest rates of homelessness, calculated as the number of people experiencing homelessness per 1,000 residents in the state, were California, Vermont, Oregon and Hawaii. Washington, D.C., has a higher homelessness rate than any state, with over 6.5 people experiencing homelessness per 1,000 residents.

IMO DC shouldn't be compared to state rates but rather other city rates. 

 

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PeterMP

PeterMP

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18 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with-the-most-homeless-people

 

States with the highest rates of homelessness, calculated as the number of people experiencing homelessness per 1,000 residents in the state, were California, Vermont, Oregon and Hawaii. Washington, D.C., has a higher homelessness rate than any state, with over 6.5 people experiencing homelessness per 1,000 residents.

 

Just want to point out that those stats are almost meaningless because they are based on states counting their homeless.  And what states/areas make the most effort to count homelessness?  The more liberal states

 

(Generally, I suspect homelessness is high in states with moderate temperatures and high real estate prices.  A lot of places in CA is it comfortable to live outside all year round and housing is expensive so high homeless.  So I suspect that CA actually has a high homeless rate.  I suspect VT doesn't actually have a high homeless rate, but they do a good job of housing the homeless and so they are easy to count because they mostly help the homeless in shelters so they don't have to go out into streets and count people.  But I suspect that VT doesn't actually have a high homeless rate.  They just count them better/more than most other states.

 

A state like N. Dakota likely actually has a low homeless rate.  Cheap real estate and cold so homeless aren't going to want to live there even if they can't afford the to get a place to live.  But I also suspect that N. Dakota doesn't make much effort to count their homeless.)

Edited by PeterMP
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tshile

tshile

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In my experience the drug use in liberal cities is more visible. The lack of enforcement allows for it.

 

was in Seattle for a bit recently and while it’s a fun city and I’d love to live there with my wife, there’s no way in hell I’d want to raise my kids there. 
 

it’s basically an open air drug market complete with drug use. 
 

which - whatever, not my city, that’s how those people want their city then it’s none of my business. But. It’s definitely a thing that’s going on. 
 

and pointing to other cities that also have drug problems is sort of missing the point. General drug addiction is one thing, how much if you see going on in public with no attempt to hide it is a different thing. Which is what I imagine DeSantis was talking about, however ive never been to SF so I’m not personally sure how bad it is. 

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The Evil Genius

The Evil Genius

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1 hour ago, Spearfeather said:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with-the-most-homeless-people

 

States with the highest rates of homelessness, calculated as the number of people experiencing homelessness per 1,000 residents in the state, were California, Vermont, Oregon and Hawaii. Washington, D.C., has a higher homelessness rate than any state, with over 6.5 people experiencing homelessness per 1,000 residents.

 

I'd be curious if anyone has overlayed those stats with the places thats cost the most to live in.

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PeterMP

PeterMP

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44 minutes ago, tshile said:

In my experience the drug use in liberal cities is more visible. The lack of enforcement allows for it.

 

was in Seattle for a bit recently and while it’s a fun city and I’d love to live there with my wife, there’s no way in hell I’d want to raise my kids there. 
 

it’s basically an open air drug market complete with drug use. 
 

which - whatever, not my city, that’s how those people want their city then it’s none of my business. But. It’s definitely a thing that’s going on. 
 

and pointing to other cities that also have drug problems is sort of missing the point. General drug addiction is one thing, how much if you see going on in public with no attempt to hide it is a different thing. Which is what I imagine DeSantis was talking about, however ive never been to SF so I’m not personally sure how bad it is. 

 

Visited SF reasonably recently.  Might have just been the areas I went to, but it actually didn't seem as bad as San Diego and LA or NYC.

 

In terms of homelessness directly, it isn't like DeSantis is even pointing to a policy.  Being antagonistic (e.g. enforcing vagrancy laws) doesn't really fix homeleness.  It just causes them move to somewhere else and be homeless or hide better (making it harder to count them).

 

In terms of actually fixing homelessness, the current best solution appears to be what is called a "housing first" model.

 

https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how

https://world-habitat.org/news/our-blog/helsinki-is-still-leading-the-way-in-ending-homelessness-but-how-are-they-doing-it/

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/howardcenter/caring-for-covid-homeless/stories/homeless-funding-housing-first.html

https://apo.org.au/node/319053

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749379721004827?casa_token=GKz2JFK0858AAAAA:AJ3s_OzaILTTBgtRBTHrF1bIz9UIK_K5Wc51MhmlRJqvjoQG9J8_ulfH2ZPmDN_XkMEemw7THdk

 

(Though there are some questioning its long term effectiness:

 

https://www.cato.org/blog/evidence-calls-housing-first-homelessness-strategy-question#:~:text=Utah's Housing First initiatives specifically,) homeless population%2C as well.)

 

(Generally, not for open homelessness or drug use.  And don't actually support liberal policies that allow/encourage them.  Having large numbers of people on the streets using and abusing drugs isn't good for anybody.  Not for them, not for the people working/living in the area, and not good for tourism.

 

Get people off the street, into homes, and whatever medical/mental health they need, and then transition them into independent living situations as much as possible.  There will be a some set of people where living independently won't be possible due to mental health issues and will have to essentially be permanently housed by the government even if they aren't overly/overtly dangerous but might need some of their freedoms restricted.)

 

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The Evil Genius

The Evil Genius

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Fwiw I'd be more worried about the meth and opiate problem in rural America than open drug use in Seattle.

 

Haven't been there in awhile but I remember back in 2009 when i was there, Vancouver had designated safe needle/drug use areas. I wonder if Seattle adopted something similar?

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tshile

tshile

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I’m in complete agreement with you @PeterMP

 

but from what I’ve seen - the visibility is clearly different in liberal areas and it seems obvious to me why that is. 
 

but generally I’m more in favor of looking for productive solutions as opposed to demonizing or using them as a political talking point. 
 

for all the negatives of the visibility, those same places have the positives like treating drug addiction as a health and wellness issue not a criminal issue. When someone does wind up in the criminal justice system sentences usually lean towards treatment and expungement of the arrest or other “first time offender” style programs. They have more needle exchanges or other similar things proven to help. They’ve even opened up drugs to legalization (beyond marijuana) and I’m for that. 
 

but sometimes it seems like people are talking past each other. In my mind, DeSantis comments align with what I see when it comes to the visibility and public use of it. But that’s different than the rest of it.
 

that said, I have no reason to believe DeSantis has any motive other than taking shots at liberal policies. 

9 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Fwiw I'd be more worried about the meth and opiate problem in rural America than open drug use in Seattle.

 

Haven't been there in awhile but I remember back in 2009 whe i was there, Vancouver had designated safe needle/drug use areas. I wonder if Seattle adopted something similar?

Well. I sort of broke it into two different categories. I don’t give a **** - I can walk by people shooting up and not care. I didn’t feel unsafe. I even said I’d love to live there with my wife, I think we’d have a great time. 
 

but no way in hell do I want my kids walking by it on their way to the grocery store in the nicest and most well kept areas of the city - like I did for a week. It was easy to figure out which spots were for it. They’re sitting right there in plain site. But it’s not like I changed my routes once I figured it out, again it doesn’t bother me. 
 

but it is gross and disgusting and I don’t personally think it’s a good idea. I don’t want to claim it leads to bigger issues, as I said I never felt unsafe, but it seems to me that would be a reasonable outcome to predict generally speaking. 
 

but yeah the only druggies I am on guard around are meth heads, and I guess heroin/crack heads cause they tend to steal things but it’s not like I have them in my house. But methheads can be unpredictably violent and for the dumbest of reasons 

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PeterMP

PeterMP

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5 minutes ago, tshile said:

for all the negatives of the visibility, those same places have the positives like treating drug addiction as a health and wellness issue not a criminal issue. When someone does wind up in the criminal justice system sentences usually lean towards treatment and expungement of the arrest or other “first time offender” style programs. They have more needle exchanges or other similar things proven to help. They’ve even opened up drugs to legalization (beyond marijuana) and I’m for that. . 

 

Sort of ties into the idea of opiate drug use @The Evil Genius.  Guess who has lower mortality from drug use than FL?  CA, NY, HI, WA, and OR.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm

 

Those liberal bastions with failed policies.

 

(VT is actually surprisingly high.  If my choice is people openly using drugs or people dying from drugs because they feel they need to hide their drug use and can't get the assistance they need, I'd take the openly using drugs.)

Edited by PeterMP
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tshile

tshile

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2 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Sort of ties into the idea of opiate drug use @The Evil Genius.  Guess who has lower mortality from drug use than FL?  CA, NY, HI, WA, and OR.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm

 

Those liberal bastions with failed policies.

 

(VT is actually surprisingly high.  If my choice is people openly using drugs or people dying from drugs because they feel they need to hide, I'd take the openly using drugs.)


well there’s also a very obvious reality:

 

many people don’t give a flying crap about drug addicted, they just don’t want to see or deal with them. They want them rounded up and put in jail and chased into the shadows. They don’t want needle exchange programs with lines out the door. 
 

I tend to think that’s counter productive, ignorant, and doesn’t align with some basic qualities I was taught. It’s probably most costly long run and it certainly doesn’t help with the next generation. 
 

But no one’s required to view things that way. I totally get their point. Keep it away from them and that’s the extent they care about it. 🤷‍♂️ 

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