LadySkinsFan Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: I'm not convinced we're on the same page concerning Conservatism, even from American political perspective. Fascism is on the conservative end of the political spectrum, jus further right then we're used to here. Half of the country can be conservative without half the country being fascist. If they don't say/do anything to stop Fascism, they're complicit. And that's what the majority of Republicans are doing, staying complicit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 9 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said: If they don't say/do anything to stop Fascism, they're complicit. And that's what the majority of Republicans are doing, staying complicit. Not even sure where to go with this because thete are plenty of conservatives on this very site and it doesn't seem to make a lick of difference. We really at the point of calling half the country fascist now because the GOP is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hail2skins Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, tshile said: I just can’t get behind it. He needs to be stopped as quickly as possible. By who exactly? It's so obvious by now that the majority of the GOP voters crave Trump's act. And when you consider that a majority still thinks the 2020 election was rigged, it isn't surprising. Even though the inflation numbers are getting better and may be back to a normal level by November next year, I see enough independents having concern about Joe's age to swing the WH back to DJT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, Renegade7 said: We really at the point of calling half the country fascist now because the GOP is? They’re going to run the guy who tried to have himself installed as leader of the free world even though he lost the election for a third time and he’s going to get 70-80 million votes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: We really at the point of calling half the country fascist now because the GOP is? Not half the country but yes about fifty million Americans are ok with fascism and authoritarianism. 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 19 minutes ago, hail2skins said: By who exactly? It's so obvious by now that the majority of the GOP voters crave Trump's act. And when you consider that a majority still thinks the 2020 election was rigged, it isn't surprising. Even though the inflation numbers are getting better and may be back to a normal level by November next year, I see enough independents having concern about Joe's age to swing the WH back to DJT. The DOJ? The people that pull the strings in the GOP? The voters in the early primary states? I don’t know and I don’t care. But he needs to not be an option. I think the 2020 election shows trump lost the minimum required support to win. Down ballot results showed some combination of: - people in general not wanting trump but not exactly embracing dems platform - republicans going to vote for republicans down ballot but not for trump and I think historically it’s been shown voters have short memories. it doesn’t matter that people here can argue until their blue in the face about the good things Biden has done and the good things he tried to do but republicans blocked him. It doesn’t matter if inflation is back down. What matters is what people feel about the state of things and that doesn’t seem to align with the aforementioned arguments. people aren’t happy and i think it makes things more unpredictable than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 23 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: They’re going to run the guy who tried to have himself installed as leader of the free world even though he lost the election for a third time and he’s going to get 70-80 million votes. Yet my state has a governor who pretended to be a moderate. Some folks want to win elections no matter what to get what they want out of it. Some people will refuse to vote for liberals simply because the conservative options are deplorable, see how many of these bamma ass rappers voting for lower taxes : / I don't know, I've meet folks that can't wait for Trump to go even though for them it's working enough and even been to a Trump rally before. We keep trying to put folks into a political box because of how they vote, then find out they have no idea what's actually going on and the core of his base wasn't typically politically active. Jus feel like we're closer to dealing with a cult of personality then literally being half Nazi right now, lookin at those proposing some of the same things as him and still getting crushed in the polls against him for example. 15 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said: Not half the country but yes about fifty million Americans are ok with fascism and authoritarianism. 🤷♂️ Totally agree, it's enough that it totally matters and should be taken seriously. Germany is notorious for owning their history while not glorifying it, and implementing social welfare programs in a way to help prevent their population from getting that angry and desperate again that they went full Nazi in the first place. Many countries could learn from that, even ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) @tshile Sometimes I wonder if this is jus the master plan coming back as a leopard to eat folks faces. That the goal has been weakening our public education system to build a population more susceptible to propaganda and it becoming a self-feeding hurricane they can't seem to stop. This is easier to convince people the economy sucks if they dont even understand how it works, damn if his base isn't folks without college degrees. In so many ways this speaks volumes to me in regards on what we actually dealing with in regards to how to if ever recover from it. Part of that is there are some pretty economically depressed areas in the country with terrible education systems and "coincidentally" overlap with were Trump is killing at the polls the most in presidential elections. Edited July 12, 2023 by Renegade7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: That the goal has been weakening our public education system to build a population more susceptible to propaganda and it becoming a self-feeding hurricane they can't seem to stop. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 A few things I wanted to comment. I don't intend to vote GOP, but if I did I think Vivek Ramaswamy has the best image/media personality of the GOP contenders and actually sounds smart. I did watch a clip of him interviewed on CNN recently where I thought "those are some dumb ideas." 1 - End the Russia-Ukraine War by normalizing relations with Russia, giving them their land gains and promising that Ukraine won't join NATO. Rationale: We need to create a wedge to China-Russia relationship, so we should embrace Putin -- it's the reverse of what Nixon did to China. 2. Ending birthright citizenship for some temporary period. Also raising the voting age and making kids take a citizenship test when they are 18. 3. We don't need to fix entitlements, we just have to magically grow the economy (and we can by drill baby drilling!!!!) Elect me and I will give you a 5% GDP economy. Not this puny 1% GDP economy. But he passionately articulated his pointsand doesn't have the stench of the past on him (aka... how VA got sweaterman for governor). I don't know if this is facism... but the American government is now some corrupt government of corporate indifference/suicidal individualism that is ignoring all the problems wealth inequality is creating. And the wealthy are buying both sides of the system and influencing it so that no one really fights them. Case in point... Senate Democrats did this: Quote The Stop Predatory Investing Act, introduced by Sens. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio), Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and others, would restrict investors who purchase 50 or more single-family rentals from deducting interest or depreciation on those properties from their taxes. That's the line they drew. 50 houses. Not 5, not 10, not 2 or 3. 50. "Go ahead... you can invest in 49 houses.... but not 50." Give me a damn break. But at least they are feigning some giveadamn about one of the "three weights of the American dream": housing, healthcare, and education. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 13 minutes ago, Fergasun said: 2. Ending birthright citizenship for some temporary period. The guy what's the son of Indian immigrants is in favor of this? 🤣 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: I'm not convinced we're on the same page concerning Conservatism, even from American political perspective. Fascism is on the conservative end of the political spectrum, jus further right then we're used to here. Half of the country can be conservative without half the country being fascist. My problem with the folks saying "abandon all the Trump baggage, and get back to conservatism", is that really the things Trump and the modern GOP are doing? Have a lot of similarities to the GOP, at least back to Reagan. I mean, Reagan and Trump differ in their opinions of the military. And of Russia. Any other major differences? 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: We really at the point of calling half the country fascist now because the GOP is? How about "because the GOP is, and half the country votes for them"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, Larry said: How about "because the GOP is, and half the country votes for them"? More like 27.5% than 50%. 🤓 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, Larry said: My problem with the folks saying "abandon all the Trump baggage, and get back to conservatism", is that really the things Trump and the modern GOP are doing? Have a lot of similarities to the GOP, at least back to Reagan. I mean, Reagan and Trump differ in their opinions of the military. And of Russia. Any other major differences? 4 minutes ago, Larry said: How about "because the GOP is, and half the country votes for them"? Before I answer this, are you saying 80s GOP under Reagan was basically or at least pretty close to Fascism then? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism Quote political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism Quote Philosophy of government that stresses the primacy and glory of the state, unquestioning obedience to its leader, subordination of the individual will to the state’s authority, and harsh suppression of dissent. Martial virtues are celebrated, while liberal and democratic values are disparaged. Fascism arose during the 1920s and ’30s partly out of fear of the rising power of the working classes; it differed from contemporary communism (as practiced under Joseph Stalin) by its protection of business and landowning elites and its preservation of class systems. The leaders of the fascist governments of Italy (1922–43), Germany (1933–45), and Spain (1939–75)—Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler, and Francisco Franco—were portrayed to their publics as embodiments of the strength and resolve necessary to rescue their nations from political and economic chaos. Japanese fascists (1936–45) fostered belief in the uniqueness of the Japanese spirit and taught subordination to the state and personal sacrifice. See also totalitarianism; neofascism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Fergasun said: That's the line they drew. 50 houses. Not 5, not 10, not 2 or 3. 50. "Go ahead... you can invest in 49 houses.... but not 50." Give me a damn break. But at least they are feigning some giveadamn about one of the "three weights of the American dream": housing, healthcare, and education. I know that makes logical sense, but the actual real issue with investors scooping up all of the housing isn’t individuals that buy a few dozen homes, it’s companies that build algorithms to assess the value of every home on the market in the entire country and buy every undervalued home they can, often thousands, and then sell them quickly, often to real estate management companies that turn them into rentals. Edit, just as a point of reference, Opendoor bought 37,000 homes in just 2021. Edited July 13, 2023 by PleaseBlitz 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Renegade7 said: Before I answer this, are you saying 80s GOP under Reagan was basically or at least pretty close to Fascism then? I think there's a difference of degree, certainly. But yes, there was certainly a stream of "Party before Country". Probably, more from the GOP Congress than from Reagan. But it was there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, Larry said: I think there's a difference of degree, certainly. But yes, there was certainly a stream of "Party before Country". Probably, more from the GOP Congress than from Reagan. But it was there. Got it. To answer your question, I can't pretend what I see on TV or in polls or read in news articles or here isn't bad. It jus seems like many of us in here are going in circles on a similar correlation argument that we see from the right, like calling every Dem that's a threat a socialist. I don't feel that when I walk around and deal with people on a regular basis. I don't feel the same fear I believe I would if I was living in Nazi Germany or Mussolini Italy, how far gone are we really? I was jus in Texas last month the, the off ramp here jus feels closer then it looks, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) @Fergasun I can see the case made for saying the US is currently some where between here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy And here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy But I'd feel beyond cynical and hopeless to jus accept we're too far those paths to get out of even if the case can be made. They are definition, and most of what we see here and different places are to smaller or larger degrees mixes of different definitions. We don't run a purely capitalistic system here in the US, for example, no matter how badly some folks want to denounce socialism, it's clearly a mix heavy on capitalism over socialism. Some countries appear further to the left then we are because they have universal healthcare, but have some of the same problems were seeing from folks that consider themselves far-right. This is jus me speaking outloud and not trying to put words in anyones mouth or learns anyone, not a fan of ultimatums or absolutes unless truly necessary when it comes to what do about major issues in our society. Some issues truly are jus more grey then black or white. Edited July 13, 2023 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: @tshile Sometimes I wonder if this is jus the master plan coming back as a leopard to eat folks faces. That the goal has been weakening our public education system to build a population more susceptible to propaganda and it becoming a self-feeding hurricane they can't seem to stop. This is easier to convince people the economy sucks if they dont even understand how it works, damn if his base isn't folks without college degrees. In so many ways this speaks volumes to me in regards on what we actually dealing with in regards to how to if ever recover from it. Part of that is there are some pretty economically depressed areas in the country with terrible education systems and "coincidentally" overlap with were Trump is killing at the polls the most in presidential elections. don’t get me wrong I love a good “people behind the curtain” run but honestly I just think people are selfish and short sighted. Everyone’s got a reason other people are to blame, or other people need to pay more taxes, or do this or do that. Doesn’t feel like people often talk about what they could do better. People were mostly kept in control by being told a magical man in the sky made everything and was watching everything you do and you will be judged - or so form of that. The general public just isn’t hard to manipulate and it doesn’t take a master plan to understand how to play on fear emotions and stupidity. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 Socialized medicine ain't socialism. It's a shame this country is so ignorant on what socialism actually is.🤦 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said: Socialized medicine ain't socialism. It's a shame this country is so ignorant on what socialism actually is.🤦 🤔 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 The John Birch Society is certainly Fascism in disguise as ultra conservatism. And back in the 50s, my Republican parents and their friends recognized that organization for what it is. And that organization was successful in infiltrating the Republican party into what it is now. I've been saying this for years. They sorta thought about the Democrats but that party was too progressive especially after the Dixiecrats left the party. The Dixiecrats couldn't turn the Democrats back into a white supremist party so they eventually joined with Birchers to infiltrate the Republicans. I saw all of this while growing up in the 50s to 60s as I turned 18 and graduated in '69. It's why I became a Democrat. The Republicans were morphing into the party of the wealthy and corporations pretty much exclusively. Not to say that some Democrats aren't into the same things but they are also interested in We the People and supporting the Constitution. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hail2skins Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 We need a Dem primary in order to have rousing debates like this: https://pagesix.com/2023/07/12/rfk-jr-press-dinner-explodes-in-war-of-words-and-farts/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) Since this is a presidential election thread, I want the Democrats in the Senate to introduce an amendment abolishing the Electoral College and make the popular vote for President and Vice President the law. It doesn't have a snowball's chance to survive to get to a vote and certainly not in the House. We need a conversation at this level to move it forward. Let the Republicans explain why an outdated system that was to appease the South slave holding states is still relevant when every other election is popular vote based. Edited July 13, 2023 by LadySkinsFan 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 9 hours ago, hail2skins said: We need a Dem primary in order to have rousing debates like this: https://pagesix.com/2023/07/12/rfk-jr-press-dinner-explodes-in-war-of-words-and-farts/ Everyone should read this article. I can't tell if it is entirely parody, but it is wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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