Work/Life Balance and Quietly Quitting

[purbeast]

1 minute ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Mathematics says 108 hours per week.  

I said realistically, not mathematically lol.

 

Just sounds like an awful work/life balance, which this thread is about discussing, but to each their own.

[The Evil Genius]

1 minute ago, purbeast said:

I said realistically, not mathematically lol.

 

Just sounds like an awful work/life balance, which this thread is about discussing, but to each their own.

 

Your first mistake was caring about lawyers. 😁

 

They have a high enough opinion of themselves anyways (for anyone else to care about them). 

[purbeast]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

It’s hard to wrap your head around it but he can do whatever he wants. He’s earned it. And he thoroughly enjoys his job, which makes it less like “work” than how most people feel. 
 

He probably gets to do a lot of things most people don’t get to do. 
 

And sacrificing a traditional vacation isn’t as bad as it sounds. 

my wife is in a similar workload situation as him. We reserve week long trips for leaving the country. 
 

it may seem like we’re being screwed but I can’t tell you the number of 3 or 4 day weekends we take flying all over the place going on short vacations. And for her that doesn’t even count as PTO and for me I have unlimited PTO. 
 

it’s a different lifestyle. And it’s not for everyone. 
 

this inter break we’re renting a huge house on a ski slope for like 2-3 weeks and sending an open invite to all our friends and family. Anyone who can carve out a few days may come stay and get in some skiing. We can do it because the holidays provide a rare time of the year to actually step away - but we’ll both be working remotely anyways as needed. 
 

It’s … different. For the right person who knows how to meet the expectation and balance things, it can be great. For others it sounds like a labor death camp. 🤷‍♂️ 

Based on what he posted, it doesn't sound like "he can do whatever he wants" at all.  He gets a call at 4am while he's sleeping to do some work, and he has to do it.  yeah sure he "wants" to do that...

 

He also said that he takes a one week vacation once every 2 years.  That is nothing like what you are talking about taking 2-3 weeks off at a time.

 

You are making a lot of assumptions about stuff he never said.  I am simply reacting to what he told us

 

I also take long "weekends" (5 - 6 days over a weekend) to go on trips, not all of mine are simply a week long.

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I said realistically, not mathematically lol.

 

Just sounds like an awful work/life balance, which this thread is about discussing, but to each their own.

I’m 6 weeks into my new job. 
 

after 15 years of a 40 hour/week job where the last 5-7 years I refused to work outside my normal hours unless it was necessary and even then I ****ed about it. 
 

I wouldn’t go back to that for anything. I have no stress about anything now. I don’t even have to tell people I’m not working. Out of office message up and that’s it. 
 

It’s definitely different. It’s not for everyone. But I’d never entertain a traditional 40 hour/week job ever again unless it was my only option (and my field  has basically moved away from that model and I don’t realistically see why it would go back)

Edited August 24, 2022 by tshile

[PleaseBlitz]

8 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I said realistically, not mathematically lol.

 

Just sounds like an awful work/life balance, which this thread is about discussing, but to each their own.

 

It is an awful work/life balance, I totally agree.  I also tried a job once with a really great work/life balance but making $50k per year and I hated it because the job was boring AF and $50k doesn't cut it where I want to live. I've also built my entire life around my job, so it fits in pretty well and I'm used to it, so it's not jarring for me as it is for someone hearing about it for the first time.  I'll also make partner here in the next 2-3 years and then I'll be making **** you money. 

 

If you really want to hear some ****ed up ****, about every 5 or 7 months, one of the legal publications will have a story about some lawyer actually killing themselves because of how stressful the work is.  https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2018/11/12/big-law-killed-my-husband-an-open-letter-from-a-sidley-partners-widow/?slreturn=20220724130116

 

Andrew Yang RAN FOR PRESIDENT and he washed out of my job in less than a year. 

 

 

 

The above being said, I totally understand the "quiet quitters" or, as they've been known before, the people that do the minimum.  If what gets you up in the morning is NOT work, and you don't give a **** about getting ahead, and you just want to pay the bills so you can get by and do whatever else it is that you do, by all means do that.  I'm just not wired that way and never have been.  I also don't want to work with those people.  

Edited August 24, 2022 by PleaseBlitz

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, purbeast said:

Based on what he posted, it doesn't sound like "he can do whatever he wants" at all.  He gets a call at 4am while he's sleeping to do some work, and he has to do it.  yeah sure he "wants" to do that...

 

He also said that he takes a one week vacation once every 2 years.  That is nothing like what you are talking about taking 2-3 weeks off at a time.

 

You are making a lot of assumptions about stuff he never said.  I am simply reacting to what he told us

 

I also take long "weekends" (5 - 6 days over a weekend) to go on trips, not all of mine are simply a week long.

im making a lot of points because I directly work with people exactly like him. 
 

in fact I bet he knows most the people I work with. 
 

you’re making the mistake of thinking that just because he has to respond to emergencies, that he has no other control over his job and such. 
 

he also clearly thoroughly enjoys his job. Which makes a hell of a difference for people. 
 

but you plan your work. Emergencies happen and they require your immediate attention. But the rest of your job is how you see fit to 

make it - keeping g in mind it involves meetings with others so you can’t just be like nah let’s schedule that meeting for 3am tomorrow. 
 

as a person that lives the same life (with a lesser overall workload) by virtue of being the person that makes sure they can do their job - I know it sounds ****ty, but I promise you it’s not. 
 

Most of these people are taking zooms from beaches, golf courses, their back yards, roof tops in DC, etc. 

 

there’s a lot to a job other than emergencies and meeting, and all that becomes on your time as you see fit. 
 

so long as you get your job done and done well. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by tshile

[purbeast]

Just now, PleaseBlitz said:

 

It is an awful work/life balance, I totally agree.  I also tried a job once with a really great work/life balance but making $50k per year and I hated it because the job was boring AF and $50k doesn't cut it where I want to live. I've also built my entire life around my job, so it fits in pretty well and I'm used to it, so it's not jarring for me as it is for someone hearing about it for the first time.  I'll also make partner here in the next 2-3 years and then I'll be making **** you money. 

 

If you really want to hear some ****ed up ****, about every 5 or 7 months, one of the legal publications will have a story about some lawyer actually killing themselves because of how stressful the work is.  https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2018/11/12/big-law-killed-my-husband-an-open-letter-from-a-sidley-partners-widow/?slreturn=20220724130116

 

Andrew Yang RAN FOR PRESIDENT and he washed out of my job in less than a year. 

I think part of it too is that my dad was a doctor and I saw how much he worked and how little he played.  I never ever wanted to be a doctor because my dad was one and I saw how much he worked.

 

When my parents split up he moved to the eastern shore right past Kent Island.  His office was in Bethesda and he commuted every day.  He'd get up at like 4am and be in the office by 6am, then get home at like 7-8pm, every ****ing day, for like 15+ years.  Then he'd work on Saturdays sometimes too.

 

Then at 57 he died before every retiring.

 

Sure, he lived on a country club with a pool in his backyard, but how much did he even really get to enjoy it?  He never traveled anywhere.  His only vacations was doing to NC for a week every year, if that.  Sometimes they would take little trips to drive somewhere.  I loved visiting him though and we had a lot of time together where we'd golf 18 holes on the weekend, usually after he got home after 1pm because he had to go into work in the morning.  Then by like 8pm he'd be passed out on the couch.

 

So yeah, I'm a bit biased probably but I see it all the time.  I remember my first job out of school you could roll over like 280 hours of PTO and like every manager would lose hours because they would have more than that.  Like dude take some ****ing time off work will keep going on.

[PleaseBlitz]

15 minutes ago, purbeast said:

Based on what he posted, it doesn't sound like "he can do whatever he wants" at all.  He gets a call at 4am while he's sleeping to do some work, and he has to do it.  yeah sure he "wants" to do that...

 

He also said that he takes a one week vacation once every 2 years.  That is nothing like what you are talking about taking 2-3 weeks off at a time.

 

You are making a lot of assumptions about stuff he never said.  I am simply reacting to what he told us

 

I also take long "weekends" (5 - 6 days over a weekend) to go on trips, not all of mine are simply a week long.

 

First, nobody calls at 4am.  Those calls go to the padawans.

 

I said I take one "week-long" vacation every 2 years (and I work *some* on those too).  I took my whole family to Philadelphia this past weekend and we ate and drank our way across the city.  See What are you Drinking? thread.  We stayed in Rittenhouse, probably the nicest part of the city.  Never once did I think "I wonder how much [X] costs?"  Last long vacation I took we rented a house on the beach in Hilton Head.  It had an elevator.  The one before that was Napa Valley, we went specifically to eat at the French Laundry.  

 

I guess I forgot to mention that my hours don't count in December because the firm has to tally everything and get annual bonuses ready starting the first week in December, so my entire December is very light and every year we take 4 days off before Xmas, drop the kids off at the in laws, and go to the resort not far from their house, then do Xmas at the in laws.  So i do take a nearly-week long vacation every year around Xmas.    

 

But yea, mostly we stay around DC, which is totally fine.  

Edited August 24, 2022 by PleaseBlitz

[tshile]

He also just recently posted his story about getting a guy out of prison early on a very long sentence, after the guy underwent some incredibly serious and drastic reforms as a person. Took him 5 years to do it. He called the release day something like the most rewarding day of his life. 
 

Most people don’t get anything close to that for their hard work at their job. Most people hate going to work. 
 

My wife is like him in terms of work load - and has her own version of awesome feelings from time to time (healthcare)

 

Its a different life - can be hard to understand if you don’t get to experience it (even if just second hand)

 

But for the right people it’s not the labor death camp it sounds like. It has its own perks very few people get from their job. 
 

 

[purbeast]

3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

First, nobody calls at 4am.  Those calls go to the padawans.

 

I said I take one "week-long" vacation every 2 years (and I work *some* on those too).  I took my whole family to Philadelphia this past weekend and we ate and drank our way across the city.  See What are you Drinking? thread.  We stayed in Rittenhouse, probably the nicest part of the city.  Never once did I think "I wonder how much [X] costs?"  Last long vacation I took we rented a house on the beach in Hilton Head.  It had an elevator.  The one before that was Napa Valley, we went specifically to eat at the French Laundry.  

 

I guess I forgot to mention that my hours don't count in December because the firm has to tally everything and get annual bonuses ready starting the first week in December, so my entire December is very light and every year we take 4 days off before Xmas, drop the kids off at the in laws, and go to the resort not far from their house, then do Xmas at the in laws.  So i do take a nearly-week long vacation every year around Xmas.    

 

But yea, mostly we stay around DC, which is totally fine.  

Taking your family to Philly sounds like a punishment.

 

Damn you must hate your fam!

[Renegade7]

39 minutes ago, TheDoyler23 said:

Quiet quitting is just rebranded boundary setting. 

 

As an elder millennial, I had to sit through 10 years of "you whippersnappers with your avocadoes, safe spaces and Harry Potters" boomer nonsense and now it's Gen Z's turn for corporations to rebrand normal healthy behavior as something else. 

 

 

Couldn't agree more...

 

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

There's nothing unique about setting healthy boundaries at work.

 

Corporation America trying to find another way to shame their workers...I'm gonna give my 110% regardless, but have warned my fellow co-workers about working off the clock if for any reason it hurts our justification we need more resources to stop the feel to need to do that in the first place.

[balki1867]

When I worked in Management Consulting I was pretty good friends with a lot of people in my firm's healthcare practice.  One of the dirty little secrets of the healthcare world is that no matter how much hospitals and insurance companies screw doctors in terms of stress, workload, pay, etc., they'll never turn their backs on their patients and they'll deal with it. So whatever new cost savings idea is in style at the time ("Lean Six SIgma", "Zero-Based whatever", etc.), management can use it, find something to cut, make the doctors' and nurses' jobs miserable but ultimately claim victory anyways, because, hey, they made all those cuts, but somehow all the patients are doing fine.

 

Unfortunately for them, "quiet quitting," hits an ethical nerve they don't want to touch (although there's a reason nobody wants to go into the medical field anymore).  But for the rest of us, you have my blessing to just do your job as its described and go home. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by balki1867

[The Evil Genius]

Fwiw to me, "doing the minimum" means meeting your job duties and requirements at 100%.

 

This idea that doing the minimum is bad is myopic. If someone wants more than the minimum of the job, then define it in the job duty statement requirements or kindly **** off.  

 

The idea of hiring people based on advertised job duty statements and then expecting them to go above and beyond that because you the employer could not take the time to tell your perspective employees the truth via the expectations is wrong.

Edited August 24, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[PleaseBlitz]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Corporation America trying to find another way to shame their workers

 

Don't get me started on the "you must give 2 weeks (or more) notice before leaving."  You know what, if you found another job, quit on the spot and take some time off.  

[Spaceman Spiff]

The quiet quitting talk is getting out of hand.  I saw a great tweet yesterday and I wish I could find it, but it was something along the lines of "Giving millennials credit for putting a name to doing enough work just to get by."  All of a sudden there's an alliteration and people think this is some new ****.  People doing barely enough to keep their jobs has been around for as long as people have been working, this isn't new.

 

I quit my job in 2018, worked for a textbook narcissist that I worked with in college and connected with a few years later.   I helped him start his company out of his apartment about 8 years earlier.  Was promised equity, etc, blah blah blah, it never came to light which was a blessing in disguise or else I'd have been tied to him.  By the time I left we grew it to about 12 people had a nice office in a popular area and everyone there was a blast to work with but he made the whole thing insufferable.  

 

I decided that my next position would be working from home and I put a priority on that above all else, I did not want to be stuck in an office with someone like that again.  Remote work doesn't solve the problem of working with people you hate but at least you don't have to be in the same room with them.  

 

I didn't have to look far, someone else who I had worked with and was tired of the narcissists bull**** approached me about starting a company together and we did. And yeah, we both work from home, we're about 70 miles apart.  I'm sure we'd be more productive if we schlepped into an office together but that's also saving overhead, too.  It's been a great ride, truly life changing (not just the work from home stuff) and I wouldn't trade any of it for anything.  

 

I find people jobs, you can call me a headhunter even though some people in this industry take offense to that.  In doing so, I talk to a lot of people looking for jobs and the amount of people that are looking for work from home positions since Covid started has gone through the roof.  I can't speak for everyone in every industry, but IMO, my take on people demanding to work from home is this:  you better be good at what you do.  Last week I talked to a candidate who had a year or two of experience but wanted to work from home and unfortunately the job I was searching for wasn't a work from home role.  The...I'm not sure what to call it...arrogance?  Hubris?  Lack of awareness? was a bit astounding.  He'd been looking for a work from home role for months, hadn't come close to getting one yet and he was acting like everyone else was the problem.

 

I'm not sure if I would have found one in 2018 but at least I took the risk of helping start a company in order to do it.  IMO, I see working from home as a privilege but some of these people I talk to are acting like they deserve it because they see everyone else doing it.  

[Renegade7]

One thing I'll add is going above and beyond from an hours perspective doesn't by itself keep you safe.

 

Where I work went through a reorg concerning contracts, Lotta people let go, including half the team I'm on.

 

One team lead was sending emails every night at 8-9 pm, she also got the two weeks warning "pink slip" email same as everybody else.

 

That's one of my biggest problems with hustle culture and company family nonsense, going above and beyond doesn't protect you as well as being someone that can do multiple people's jobs when internal politics and budget cuts come knocking.

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Don't get me started on the "you must give 2 weeks (or more) notice before leaving."  You know what, if you found another job, quit on the spot and take some time off.  

 

The older I get, the more I understand this.

 

I wouldn't want to happen to me, but I know for fact every job I left that would take me back I'd never go back to anyway.

 

Do people really give bad references for not giving full two weeks notice, nullifying being able to even put them on your resume?

 

I don't know never tried out of concern for that being able to work out at least a week or two between end and start dates last couple jobs (I have considered it, in light of having a family and seemingly never having a lot of PTO anymore, not getting paternity leave or being allowed short-term disability for back to back kids will do that, it seems).

[tshile]

I’m lucky - never had to rely on references. I haven’t even done a formal interview process in my entire career - it’s all just been formality stuff. last time I did a real interview process was for a waiter position 😂 all my jobs have come from someone who knows me, bringing me into their company one way or another 🤷‍♂️  
 

I also turned in 2 weeks and took no time off cause I cared about the people I was leaving. 
 

I wouldn’t advise not giving 2 weeks. I mean don’t let that keep you from doing what you want, but, I’d give notice if possible. 
 

But my parents beat into my head not burning bridges and “you meet the same people on the way down as you did on the way up” and all that. So it’s just ingrained in me. 
 

But I do generally agree that you shouldn’t be afraid to treat the company the way they’d treat you, if it was convenient for them to do so. And most companies don’t give a 2 week firing notice …

Edited August 24, 2022 by tshile

[Renegade7]

Understood @tshile. Got same "don't burn bridges" talk from my folks...

 

Off-Topic but to this thread, I don't consider "bare minimum" and "cutting corners" to be the same thing. 

 

Quite Quitting, as i understand it (and anyone can correct me on this) should keep someone employed. Half-assing, on the other hand, should get someone fired.

[The Evil Genius]

My limited (and wrong?) understanding of the 2 weeks timeframe was that on the last day, by law, the employer had to have your final paycheck. Without the 2 weeks notice from you to your employer,  they were not required to present it on your last day. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I think the worst thing about giving a two week notice (I agree that you most likely should, but it's not a hard and fast rule) is that you're opening yourself up for counter offers.  "Oh, we were just thinking about giving you a raise," etc, etc.  ****ing bull****.  All of it.  Don't take the counter offer.  

[tshile]

44 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Fwiw to me, "doing the minimum" means meeting your job duties and requirements at 100%.

 

This idea that doing the minimum is bad is myopic. If someone wants more than the minimum of the job, then define it in the job duty statement requirements or kindly **** off.  

I’ve never seen people promoted for doing the minimum. Or recruited elsewhere for it. Or given big bonuses for it. 
 

but I’ve seen all of that for people that go above and beyond. For a bit my wife was making bonuses 1/2 my salary for doing just that (now it’s not nearly 1/2  )

 

if you want to do the minimum, fine.  But, spare me the ****ing when you’re passed over for a promotion, your raise isn’t what you wanted, or your allotment from the bonus pool is near the bottom.  
 

lots of people talk about equal pay for equal work but, aside from where I am now, I’ve never seen people with equal titles be equally good at their job. Inherently some are better, some do more. 
 

as someone who’s both been the employee and the employer, as well as being privy to company wide pay structures - usually people who do more are getting a lot more money than the rest. 
 

even when there’s a structured pay scale and a structured bonus system that seems to indicate otherwise - there’s always ‘other’ ways to pass around extra money to people that put in extra effort. 
 

I received a bonus every quarter for the last many years at a place with a profit sharing model that dictated no bonuses for everyone I’ve that same period (with few exceptions). There’s always a way to recognize and reward extra work or above and beyond. If you work for someone that doesn’t do that, then that sucks.  But I know for a fact there’s lots of people walking around thinking people like me are somehow suckers, but I pulled a lot more money than they did, they just didn’t know it. Cause they just don’t know it’s works this way cause, get this, they never put in extra work  

 

but I also think job hopping is bad. People are surprised when changing jobs every 18-36 months becomes an issue, and I always laugh. 
 

how is it hard to understand that someone leaving so quickly, as a matter of practice or habit, is off putting? In my field, and my wife’s field, there’s an extensive amount of time put in to get people up to speed.  It’s not unrealistic for it take a year or two to see someone start chugging along at their full potential. Leaving 18 months in doesn’t do me much good. Give me the less qualified go getter that’s in it for the long haul over the job hopper every day of the week. 
 

that said I’m the opposite and sat at the same place for 15 years and lost out on $ (despite raises and bonuses) by doing so. And I don’t recommend that either. I lost a lot of money doing that. Although it was a bit selling point on my current job - they wanted someone they knew was in it for the long haul and my resume shows that’s exactly what I am. So it wasn’t all for nothing. 
 

so it’s not like I’m a great example of doing it right either. 
 

13 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

My limited (and wrong?) understanding of the 2 weeks timeframe was that on the last day, by law, the employer had to have your final paycheck. Without the 2 weeks notice from you to your employer,  they were not required to present it on your last day. 

Well I continued to get paid out on normal schedule. And my last check, on normal schedule, included my PTO payout

 

 

12 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I think the worst thing about giving a two week notice (I agree that you most likely should, but it's not a hard and fast rule) is that you're opening yourself up for counter offers.  "Oh, we were just thinking about giving you a raise," etc, etc.  ****ing bull****.  All of it.  Don't take the counter offer.  

Yeah I got a hefty raise offer as a chance to keep me. 
 

i found it insulting. I was polite about it. But there’s no way I’d find that anything but insulting. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by tshile

[Ball Security]

4 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I think the worst thing about giving a two week notice (I agree that you most likely should, but it's not a hard and fast rule) is that you're opening yourself up for counter offers.  "Oh, we were just thinking about giving you a raise," etc, etc.  ****ing bull****.  All of it.  Don't take the counter offer.  

Yeah, I can’t see the point in taking a counter offer.  The same problems that you had will creep back up.

 

I think the two weeks notice is the best time.  You don’t have to worry about anything.  It’s like the last week of school and you don’t need to worry about the exams.

 

I think “quiet quitting” is such a dumb term.  I thought it meant ghosting your employer, like taking a new job but never telling them you’re leaving.

[PleaseBlitz]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

The older I get, the more I understand this.

 

I wouldn't want to happen to me, but I know for fact every job I left that would take me back I'd never go back to anyway.

 

Do people really give bad references for not giving full two weeks notice, nullifying being able to even put them on your resume?

 

I don't know never tried out of concern for that being able to work out at least a week or two between end and start dates last couple jobs (I have considered it, in light of having a family and seemingly never having a lot of PTO anymore, not getting paternity leave or being allowed short-term disability for back to back kids will do that, it seems).

 

Oh you got me started.  

 

One, correct, if I leave a job, I'm not going back and if I thought there was any chance in hell I would, I would give two weeks.  

 

Two, generally people quit their current job after they've already landed the next job, so who needs references?

 

Three, if the employer was treating the employee great, they wouldn't be leaving in the first place. 

11 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

My limited (and wrong?) understanding of the 2 weeks timeframe was that on the last day, by law, the employer had to have your final paycheck. Without the 2 weeks notice from you to your employer,  they were not required to present it on your last day. 

 

Probably varies by state and also that is what mail and direct deposit are for.  

7 minutes ago, tshile said:

I’ve never seen people promoted for doing the minimum. Or recruited elsewhere for it. Or given big bonuses for it. 

 

I have.  They even have a catchy term for it, "failing up."

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/02/failing-up-why-mediocre-workers-keep-getting-promoted/253468/

 

 

[Ball Security]

As long as we are ****ing about bad work set ups, check this out.  I was laid off in 2019 as our company was hemorrhaging from the government shutdown.  I had banked three weeks of PTO.  In my severance, they said I’d get it paid out.  If I made $100 a month and I had three weeks PTO, how much should I expect before taxes?  $75, right?  No it was a tick less than $50 because they used 15/31 as their calculation.  That’s some petty bull****.