The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[shemp nixon]

16 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Heinicke shouldn't be concerned with his long term viability as a QB though.  He is a QB2 caliber player period.  He has been fortunate that circumstances at the QB position on this team have landed him some extra opportunities, but to think he is holding back because he is in someway eyeing towards his future leverage as a player is laughable.  He isn't going to be the starter for this team or any team beyond this season unless this front office screws up again in search of a QB (in addition to the coaches thinking Howell still isn't ready to start in 2023). 

 

He should be going out there and using everything in his bag of tricks to win games now.  I am not suggesting playing with wreckless abandon because that would actually hurt more than it helps, but I am talking on a 3rd and 1, if he can scramble for the yard much easier than attempt a shorter percentage throw into traffic, he damn well needs to use his legs to get that 1st down.

 

As far as Heinicke vs Wentz for the remainder of the season.  Everyone should circle the 49ers game on the schedule because that game in my opinion is the game where I think a lot of Heinicke's strengths are going to be neutralized and if the 49ers stop our run game, or at least minimize it the way they do with most teams, we are going to see the first game of Heinicke's 2022 tenure (assuming the 2 NYG games go about how the last 6 games have) where he is forced to try and be a legitimate NFL starting caliber QB in order to win the game.  I am not suggesting we have to score a ton, because it could very well be a 13-10, 17-13 type game, but can Heinicke make plays with his arm against that defense when he doesn't have the luxury of handing the ball off 30 times.  I also am really hoping we get more O-line help by the time that game rolls around too.  Wes is back today, hopefully with the bye week he will be full strength.

Heinicke needs to play like his hair is on fire, that is when he's at his best. His refusing to use his legs as a weapon makes him an even more limited player.

[Renegade7]

Its completely unrealistic to tell a player not to think about their future in a contract year...

[NoCalMike]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Wentz is benched right now, so I don't get your logic here.  And rando caller isn't saying anything that doesn't make sense.

 

Tape don't lie, Dotson and Samuels didn't have a catch against Atlanta, numbers and targets dropping. How do you think they feel?

 

It's wishful thinking to believe the locker room isn't split on this issue. 

 

You know, it's funny because when the team was 2-4 (and before we knew that Wentz's injury was significant enough to keep him out the entire time) we kept hearing that the season wasn't over and catastrophic injuries to the O-line plus a defense that wasn't stopping anyone were the reasons for the losses and if those things improved we would start winning some of these close games instead.  Then those two aspects of the team did start turning around (more so the defense turning dominant with a few changes & adjustments) and *NOW* all of a sudden the narrative has flipped to Heinicke being the reason and the other aspects that contributed to the slow start just sort of vanished.  

 

Heinicke limits the potential of the offense. Period.  It doesn't mean we can't win games with him at QB, but it does mean the offense will be limited in doing so.   That doesn't also mean Wentz is some magic pill for throwing up 35 points a game, but it would be nice if maybe one time against a mediocre team, Heinicke could demonstrate an ability to manufacture more points with his arm, just to sort of show he can do it.  

[HigSkin]

Comments from Turner on Heinicke this week.  IMO, they're trying to keep him in balance.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/commanders/news/scott-turner-message-washington-commanders-taylor-heinicke-smart-football-atlanta-falcons

 

"I just think he just needs to keep doing what he's doing," Turner said. "We have some plays where he missed some throws or we've had some negative plays obviously that have come up. Just eliminate those, but just keep playing his game. He doesn't have to do anything special or different. Bring the energy that he brings and play smart football."

[HigSkin]

 

From david henise (@dhenise52): Washington has won despite the lousy play by Heinicke. It’s obvious the OL improvement has given the ground game a boost. At 7–5—with Carson Wentz at QB and hopefully Young back—can they make a run? It’s sad seeing three solid WRs going to waste

 

David, I’m with you on the run game. It hasn’t gotten enough attention, but Ron Rivera’s built the kind of physically imposing offense he had in Carolina, with a two-back rotation and a very real edge. From the MAQB yesterday, here are their rushing totals over the last seven games: 128, 166, 96, 137, 152, 153, 176. It’s good for a lot of people to get there, from Brian Robinson and Antonio Gibson to the line to coordinator Scott Turner.

 

It also plays to the strength of the team, which is a defense that’s playing really well, and brings us to the two returning players that you mentioned.

 

As far as Heinicke, he has limitations, but it’s important to have a player you can count on to make plays when it matters most. And I dug up some interesting numbers on that. Playing from behind with less than four minutes left, Wentz’s QB rating this year is 83.6 while Heinicke’s is 118.8. And Wentz’s rating when trailing, period, is 89.5 while Heinicke’s is 100.8.

 

On third down, Wentz is better than Heinicke in passer rating, 87.7–61.2. However, Heinicke’s stats actually jump in third-and-long—he has a 109.7 rating in third-and-7-to-9 and an 83.2 rating in third-and-10-plus (Wentz is 118.8 and 66.9 in those categories). So if you add all this up, and the belief the locker room has in Heinicke, you can see why Rivera would want to roll with what’s been working, at least for now. Rivera told me himself that this would be week-to-week, and it makes sense he’d handle it that way, given how the team’s playing.

[Wyvern]

I enjoy these statistical comparisons, but I wonder if the difference in quality of the interior pocket pass protection was an important determining factor too. 

 

The times when Wentz had to rely on pass protection with Nick Martin at center and Saahdiq Charles at right guard, were really hard to watch.  Those two were horrible in pass protection, and often left Wentz with no place (and no time) to scramble for a safe place to throw. 

 

Meanwhile Turner kept on hoping for a passing attack to develop, which allowed defenses to pin their ears back, key on that tandem as a weak link, which was so bad it impacted the quality of pass protection of the other three offensive linemen. 

 

Wentz is too big and lanky to be as elusive as Heinicke -- but during those days of poor O-Line performances he didn't have as many escape routes either.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Wyvern

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Hard to put a ton of belief in stats that equate to 6 games for each guy.  One with less than a year experience in the system, the other with his entire NFL experience in the system. As well as different personnel and different game plans available to each guy.

 

It was a perfect storm for Wentz, who has lost his mobility, to lose the interior of his line while being tasked with dropping back and airing it out.  The lack of running game had them behind the sticks more often putting even more pressure on him.  He was also frustrating in his own right missing the easy stuff when it was there and seeing ghosts that weren’t.

 

I think Heinicke has to continue playing like he has or worse and lose twice before we see Wentz again though.  It would be a tough spot for him tasked to win out to make the playoffs.  Would be a fitting end to this debacle to have him win two and fold like a lawn chair against the Dallas pass rush to miss the playoffs.

 

It’s possible though this team can finish 3-2 with Heinicke, losses to SF and Dallas, and we never hear of Wentz again.  That’s probably for the best.

Edited November 30, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[NoCalMike]

I also am curious at a deeper dive into the play calling itself.  For example we know for a fact we are running the ball more with Heinicke, and that is a good thing, but it is also a thing that I believe would benefit Wentz just as much given the state of the current O-line.

For example.  I am curious as to whether Turner tended to have Wentz pass on a lot of 2nd & Long downs, where with Heinicke he calls run plays.   The motivation for running so much with Heinicke is obvious. They want to keep him ahead of the sticks and always be in a manageable 3rd & 3ish type of down.  Why couldn't they now do the same for Wentz should he return?   

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that the Wentz vs Heinicke comparison feels so Apples to Oranges because we aren't really comparing 2 different QB's running the same offense with the same ratio of run vs pass.  Heinicke didn't take over the job and get asked to run the same type of offense Wentz was being asked to, and I feel like the last couple of months have been just as much a growing process for Scott Turner and Rivera in figuring out the run game ability, aided by Robinson getting more healthy and now also using some J-Williams, that it is going to benefit any QB under center on this team and a lot of people think that if Wentz is the starter it means we will go back to seeing the exact same Wentz we did during the first 6 weeks, but I don't think it would be the case.

Edited November 30, 2022 by NoCalMike

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I guess what I am trying to say is that the Wentz vs Heinicke comparison feels so Apples to Oranges because we aren't really comparing 2 different QB's running the same offense with the same ratio of run vs pass. 

I’ve made mention of this many times, in fact - I just did above.  The folks that really like Heinicke and/or hate Wentz will hear none of it.

 

That being said, they didn’t trade for and pay Wentz to run the kind of offense they have for Heinicke.  But obviously it would probably help Wentz a ton to have more balance.  The real threat of the run in theory would be of a great benefit to hit some chunk plays off play action.  

[NoCalMike]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’ve made mention of this many times, in fact - I just did above.  The folks that really like Heinicke and/or hate Wentz will hear none of it.

 

That being said, they didn’t trade for and pay Wentz to run the kind of offense they have for Heinicke.  But obviously it would probably help Wentz a ton to have more balance.  The real threat of the run in theory would be of a great benefit to hit some chunk plays off play action.  

 

Which makes me wonder if the coaches see the O-line as the real issue, and while they still think Wentz is the more talented QB, they are worried about Wentz dropping back behind an O-line that still isn't so hot at pass pro?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Which makes me wonder if the coaches see the O-line as the real issue, and while they still think Wentz is the more talented QB, they are worried about Wentz dropping back behind an O-line that still isn't so hot at pass pro?

It’s possible, but I think Heinicke remaining as starter has more to do with riding the momentum than it does anything about Wentz.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

30 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

I enjoy these statistical comparisons, but I wonder if the difference in quality of the interior pocket pass protection was an important determining factor too. 

 

 

I think it has far more to do with Heinicke being much, MUCH better at keeping plays alive with his legs and pocket manipulation. That usually gives receivers/TEs/RBs a little more time to adjust and get open. So on 3rd and long, Heinicke is bouncing around back there, dipping into the pocket and then back out again, bailing a bit left and right and making LBs think he might take off, which gives his players the opportunity to get themselves open. With Wentz, that extra time rarely happened.

[Warhead36]

14 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I think it has far more to do with Heinicke being much, MUCH better at keeping plays alive with his legs and pocket manipulation. That usually gives receivers/TEs/RBs a little more time to adjust and get open. So on 3rd and long, Heinicke is bouncing around back there, dipping into the pocket and then back out again, bailing a bit left and right and making LBs think he might take off, which gives his players the opportunity to get themselves open. With Wentz, that extra time rarely happened.

For sure. Heinicke's mobiilty/escapability basically won us the Colts game, if you remember that 4th down conversion a play or two before the big McLaurin catch Heinicke had to escape and make a throw on the run to I believe Samuel.

 

Basically Heinicke can turn like one or two sacks a game into either negative or maybe even positive plays. Those plays extend drives, which either flip field position and give the defense rest, or turn into points. And those extra points have been the difference in winning a few of these games.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s possible, but I think Heinicke remaining as starter has more to do with riding the momentum than it does anything about Wentz.

 

Yeah, Grant and Danny have some funny bits on the Heinicke hype and how he gets undeserved credit for everything by some.  Its in the delivery so it won't be funny here.  But my favorite today is Danny going on about why is Kendall Fuller playing better lately?  It's of course because of Taylor Heinicke.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah, Grant and Danny have some funny bits on the Heinicke hype and how he gets undeserved credit for everything by some.  Its in the delivery so it won't be funny here.  But my favorite today is Danny going on about why is Kendall Fuller playing better lately?  It's of course because of Taylor Heinicke.

It’s comedy for sure.

 

I get that Heinicke can be a spark plug coming in off the bench.  I get that the guys in the locker room like him.  He’s a team guy with a great underdog story.  But the whole “playing for Heinicke” thing is ridiculous.  And not just because it’s Taylor Heinicke, it’s generally a ridiculous thing to suggest about any QB, even the greats.

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[CapsSkins]

Wentz is a better QB but if we're down by a score and running a 2-minute drill at the end of the game, I'd have more confidence in Heinicke. That's the conundrum.

 

It's not an easy decision. I'm torn myself on what I would do. The win streak is punting the question for Ron, and if it lasts long enough to secure a playoff berth, you probably have to roll with Heinicke at that point. But man. It's a tough call.

[Wyvern]

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I think it has far more to do with Heinicke being much, MUCH better at keeping plays alive with his legs and pocket manipulation. That usually gives receivers/TEs/RBs a little more time to adjust and get open. So on 3rd and long, Heinicke is bouncing around back there, dipping into the pocket and then back out again, bailing a bit left and right and making LBs think he might take off, which gives his players the opportunity to get themselves open. With Wentz, that extra time rarely happened.

My point is on many of Wentz's sacks, there really was no pocket -- the interior and both tackles sides closed in on him quickly or some defender broke through and got to him before he'd even completing his dropback.  When the same level of defensive pressure  happened to Heinicke, he went down too.

 

I think Heinicke is more elusive than Wentz -- but the O-Line protecting Wentz vs Dallas, Tennessee, and Philadelphia was much worse than what was protecting Heinicke in Indy or Houston. (Moreover the defense was still evolving into something that no longer let Washington get so far behind they had to pass to catch up rather than rely on the ground & pound game). And those are factors that should be considered -- because it's not exactly apples to apples!

Edited November 30, 2022 by Wyvern

[Ball Security]

2 hours ago, Wyvern said:

My point is on many of Wentz's sacks, there really was no pocket -- the interior and both tackles sides closed in on him quickly or some defender broke through and got to him before he'd even completing his dropback.  When the same level of defensive pressure  happened to Heinicke, he went down too.

 

I think Heinicke is more elusive than Wentz -- but the O-Line protecting Wentz vs Dallas, Tennessee, and Philadelphia was much worse than what was protecting Heinicke in Indy or Houston. (Moreover the defense was still evolving into something that no longer let Washington get so far behind they had to pass to catch up rather than rely on the ground & pound game). And those are factors that should be considered -- because it's not exactly apples to apples!

You mention the “defense was still evolving into something that no longer let Washington get so far behind…”. The defense has been better, no doubt.  But let’s look at some of these first six games.  Tennessee was back and forth on the scoreboard.  
 

Dallas was never more than a one possession game until the fourth quarter.  

 

In the Detroit game, this is what happened before Detroit was up three scores: five offensive drives, four three and outs and a safety.  They had the ball five times and couldn’t get a first down.

 

Philly: the offense had the ball for six possessions and never crossed the 50.  One possession was a turnover that set up for a short field.  This was all before the score got worse than 10-0.  Eagles scored to make it 17-0 and what does the offense do?  Go three and out and gives the ball back 48 seconds later.  

I have a tough time blaming the defense in those games.  
 

The offense in this recent six game stretch isn’t putting nearly the same stress on the defense.

[FLSkinz83]

Actually, the defense is playing better because of TH and the run game.   We're among the league leaders in fewest 3 and outs since TH took over.

 

I think we lead the league in time of possession since TH took over.

 

23 sacks in 6 games with Wentz.  9 sacks in 6 games with TH.    Sure the O-LIne is playing a bit better, but go look at the first 4 games TH played.   Plenty of pass rush pressure that he avoided to keep drives moving.   

 

 

[redskinss]

17 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Actually, the defense is playing better because of TH and the run game.   We're among the league leaders in fewest 3 and outs since TH took over

Why did the defense play so poorly last year?

Why didn’t TH lift them up and put them on his shoulders last year too?

Edited December 1, 2022 by redskinss

[FLSkinz83]

2 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Why did the defense play so poorly last year?

Why didn’t TH lift them up and put them on his shoulders last year too?

 

WJ3 & Chase Young were primary culprits.   

[redskinss]

2 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

WJ3 & Chase Young were primary culprits.   

So the burden for heinicke was too much with Jackson and young dragging him down but now that they're gone he is able to elevate the defense to one of the best in the league?

 

 

 

[FLSkinz83]

2 minutes ago, redskinss said:

So the burden for heinicke was too much with Jackson and young dragging him down but now that they're gone he is able to elevate the defense to one of the best in the league?

 

 

 

 

It's a combination of several factors....getting rid of WJ3...committing to the running game....TH avoiding pressures and keeping the chains moving.

 

Having said all that, I think if TH plays average or worse this week and they lose, Rivera will go back to Wentz.

[redskinss]

5 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

It's a combination of several factors....getting rid of WJ3...committing to the running game....TH avoiding pressures and keeping the chains moving.

 

Having said all that, I think if TH plays average or worse this week and they lose, Rivera will go back to Wentz.

There's no doubt that having an offense that dominates time of possession helps the defense and the offense (heinicke included) get some credit for our better performance on defense but in my opinion only minor credit.

The defense is playing better regardless of how many times they're called upon.

The time of possession just reduces the amount of times they have to excell which in turn makes it more likely for them to have great statistics. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Completion %

Wentz 62.1  Heinicke 60.2

 

Yard per attempt

Wentz 6.4   Heinicke 6.8

 

Yard per completion

Wentz 10.2  Heinicke 11.3

 

TD%

Wentz 4.3  Heinicke 4.1

 

INT%

Wentz 2.6  Heinicke 2.9

 

QB Rating

Wentz 84.1  Heinicke 82.7

 

QBR

Wentz 32.9  Heinicke 46.9

 

 

Does the above mean that Wentz at his worst...is pretty much the same as Heinicke at his best? lol...