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The Official QB Thread- No Howell, No Way. Howell traded to the Seahawks. MarioTa vs Frommm battle for QB1


Koolblue13

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I haven't rewatched the game and don't plan to even though I have them all downloaded with youtube tv. I also missed most of the 2nd half the first time as well because Red Zone was much more interesting, but if it's true that Buffalo rushed 4 almost the entire game as I've been reading, and the offense still required a TE and/or RB to help block then the OL is much worse than stats are going to tell you.

 

Also the playcalling had to have been horrendous to keep passing in those situations, and sometimes still giving up sacks with them rushing 4 despite extra blockers. That means that Howell had 3-4 targets vs 7 defenders yet he's expected to still get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds. Meanwhile the RB had 7ypc and didn't get many opportunities. 

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1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I've explained myself plenty of times. It feels like Ron gave up and just handed his buddy EB the job and that's wildly disappointing. ng.

 

I wouldn't say gave up but had to find a scapegoat for his failures instead.

 

Am I right in saying that you feel Turner would have done a better job with the OL and Howell?

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3 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I wouldn't say gave up but had to find a scapegoat for his failures instead.

 

Am I right in saying that you feel Turner would have done a better job with the OL and Howell?

I think Turner would have run BRob down the Bills throats when it was 16-0 and gotten the pass rush off Howells throat, yes. I also think our WRs would be getting open like they did last year.

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Debates like these usually sort themselves out. Howell will likely get injured/benched at some point. Brisset will play and the sacks will materially come down. Same thing with Robert and Kirk. Likely the same once Fields is benched in Chicago. Happens all the time.
 

Of course the offense in general will suffer bc we’ll be back to caveman “run the damn ball” inefficient nonsense but hey, we’ll have another ES debate settled! I’m 15 years in and I’m just getting started lol. Feel like I’m in college again. 
 

Seriously tho, I think we’re all really criticizing Ron more than any individual players or units. No matter how you go about analyzing it, he’s the one in charge and he’s the one that decided to go into this season on a hope and prayer. He will get his receipt soon enough I believe. I actually think he’s ready for retirement.

Edited by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93
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5 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think Turner would have run BRob down the Bills throats when it was 16-0 and gotten the pass rush off Howells throat, yes. I also think our WRs would be getting open like they did last year.

 

Turner proved he could adapt his gameplanning and playcalling to better reflect the strengths of the team. It was not what he wanted to do, but he knew he had to do it, otherwise the O would be nonfunctional. His O still sucked, but he at least designed an offense that allowed a boxer to throw punches with their dominant arm rather than the weaker one.

 

EB right now is the guy playing street fighter and only launching hadokins and ignoring the fact that the opponent is just jumping over them and hard punishing the whiffs. He needs to display a lot more flexibility cuz he is comparable to a steel beam in that regard.

 

I stand by my previous assessment that he has only given me two satisfactory Qtrs that were also wind assisted. I'm still leaving him the space to grow and improve, but my goodness what he has delivered in the previous 3 aint good enough for me.

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8 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Debates like these usually sort themselves out. Howell will likely get injured/benched at some point. Brisset will play and the sacks will materially come down. Same thing with Robert and Kirk. Likely the same once Fields is benched in Chicago. Happens all the time.
 

Of course the offense in general will suffer bc we’ll be back to caveman “run the damn ball” inefficient nonsense but hey, we’ll have another ES debate settled! I’m 15 years in and I’m just getting started lol. Feel like I’m in college again. 
 

Seriously tho, I think we’re all really criticizing Ron more than any individual players or units. No matter how you go about analyzing it, he’s the one in charge and he’s the one that decided to go into this season on a hope and prayer. He will get his receipt soon enough I believe. I actually think he’s ready for retirement.

 

Curious what's your macro theory on the O line?

 

A.  It's actually good.  Will see that if Howell is benched.  we got bigger fish to fry in the off season tnan that spot.

B.  It's so so.  It's not really great.  But its not a problem either.

C.  It's bad but Sam makes it look even worse so its not as bad as it looks

 

Or some other thing?  I get the Howell holds on to the ball too much talk.  But this isn't actually an O line that hasn't been questioned around the league before Howell took a single snap.  Where there is some shock that they are struggiling.  Other outfits ranked it near the bottom before the season started including Sharp, PFN, PFF.  Matt Miller called it the worst O line in the league.    This isn't a pedigreed O line to say the least.

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10 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Next we're gonna hear how all offensive linemen are the same and you can't predict how they'll play from week to week, because you never know, so you can't tell if they're good or not.  :ols:

 

The other one on occasion we get is mentioning such and such team that has tried to upgrade their O line and failed.

 

lol, look, O line has one of the highest hit rates of success in the draft.  We have talked about it aplenty before O line because a code red spot here. 

 

Just because the Giants or whomever struck out on their O line picks doesn't mean we shouldn't try.  Just because Josh Doctson didn't work out doesnt mean we shouldn't draft Jahan Dotson.  Also the irony to that is the argument comes off as a defense of Ron yet it actually connotes little faith in him at the same time -- like if Ron took some big swings at that spot good chance he might miss so why try.

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2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The other one on occasion we get is mentioning such and such team that has tried to upgrade their O line and failed.

 

lol, look, O line has one of the highest hit rates of success in the draft.  We have talked about it aplenty before O line because a code red spot here. 

 

Just because the Giants or whomever struck out on their O line picks doesn't mean we shouldn't try.  Just because Josh Doctson didn't work out doesnt mean we shouldn't draft Jahan Dotson.  Also the irony to that is the argument comes off as a defense of Ron yet it actually connotes little faith in him at the same time -- like if Ron took some big swings at that spot good chance he might miss so why try.

It reads like "sure, Ron sucks, but so do other teams, so why change?"

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I hadnt noticed we aren't running much play action but in hindsight I cannot recall a single instance. Maybe defenses are playing their backers back to kill our PA (like our D does vs opponents). If we wont try pocket play action, I want to see stretch play action since our OL pass struggles will remain. I think its safer for Sam. Outside stretch play action provides the best bite for the buck. Get the whole damn defense running sideways.  We don't run outside zone? Tough **** then add some wrinkles that make us less predictable aka help Sam the sitting duck.

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26 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

It reads like "sure, Ron sucks, but so do other teams, so why change?"

 

A variation of that argument that I see here from time to time, O line play sucks elsewhere, too.  So maybe we shouldn't give this team a hard time for it,

 

3 points IMO are missed with that point.

 

A.  Ron inherited a good O line.  His actions turned it bad.  How is it that Ron gets credit for taking a good defense and making it better but conversely he's off the hook for offense. 

 

Like it takes some witchcraft level deductive reasoning to wonder why a FO that has drafted defense higher -- 72% of the first and 2nd round picks have been defense -- while shedding major players on the O line with high draft pedigree and high salaries and not replacing them with either draft capital or salary.  So the defense gets better and the offensive line got worse.  Of course it did.   But lets pat Ron on the back for the defense and he deserves no blame for the O line.  Ron made the trade off.  It's not a debatable point.  It's 100% fact.

 

B.  They are dead LAST in draft pedigree as for the O line. Not somewhere in the middle.  Dead LAST. 

 

C.  If our benchmark is 8-8 then sure lets compare this team to other mediocre ones.  But aren't we shooting for something bigger than arguments about how many other teams have units that suck, too? 

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5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Curious what's your macro theory on the O line?

 

A.  It's actually good.  Will see that if Howell is benched.  we got bigger fish to fry in the off season tnan that spot.

B.  It's so so.  It's not really great.  But its not a problem either.

C.  It's bad but Sam makes it look even worse so its not as bad as it looks

 

Or some other thing?  I get the Howell holds on to the ball too much talk.  But this isn't actually an O line that hasn't been questioned around the league before Howell took a single snap.  Where there is some shock that they are struggiling.  Other outfits ranked it near the bottom before the season started including Sharp, PFN, PFF.  Matt Miller called it the worst O line in the league.    This isn't a pedigreed O line to say the least.

 

They are a C+ to C- offensive line relative to the rest of the league. They’ll have good days and bad days depending on the team they’re playing but it’ll end up in the C range come year and. The NFL in general has a lack of OL talent around the league. Very few teams have “set it and forget it” lines. Cosmi is a good player. Gates is solid. Charles is developing but still raw. Leno is a perfectly average LT. Whylie is probably the worst one but he’s not a scrub like you guys think. He was good enough to play for the SB champions and also good enough to get a pretty decent FA deal after. Collectively, they grade out across different sites as league average or maybe just below. Guys get beat during reps. It happens. No lineman is exempt from that. But if you look across the league, very few QBs are just sitting back there not being harassed. Honestly pick a random game and watch it today. Chances are most of their pockets are muddy as well. Go one further and look up their fans’ tweets and I promise you you’ll find similar arguments to the ones we’re currently having. Again, they aren’t a particularly strong group collectively like you might see in Philly or older Dallas teams but I think they’d be much less of a talking point with a more developed QB behind them. They’ll have days where they get wrecked of course bc that is what happens to average Olines. They can get wrecked by good defenses. So long story short, my answer is that they’re “good enough” especially if Charles keeps developing. Did I want a lineman in the draft? Yes. That’s one of the few positions I paid attention to leading up to the draft. Lots of good talent we missed out on. Now if you want to argue that a “good enough” line is woefully inadequate for a raw QB like Sam Howell and it was naive of the staff to try this out in a must win year, you’ll get no argument from me. I think this whole thing is reckless and they’ll all end up fired before long. 
 

But as I watch and learn more about the league, I’m also starting to realize that a basic part of playing QB in the league is learning to live with dirty pockets and pressure. I think this is why a lot of young QBs struggle bc they get to sit in pristine pockets all through college so any time, a pocket is dirty in the NFL (the majority), it’s a learning process.

 

Maybe you go all out to make the line as strong as possible for your young QB but then that means you have less talent elsewhere. 
 

 

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5 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

 

Maybe you go all out to make the line as strong as possible for your young QB but then that means you have less talent elsewhere. 
 

 

 

Thanks for the response.  I disagree with most of it but to each their own on that front.

 

I don't get then why you have a beef with Ron?  His philiosophy seems very well aligned to yours on the topic.  Is it just because of him running with Howell?  Otherwise, your vibe about what they did on the unit and just in general of roster building -- seems to very much in Ron's camp. 

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2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Thanks for the response.  I disagree with most of it but to each their own on that front.

 

I don't get then why you have a beef with Ron?  His philiosophy seems very well aligned to yours on the topic.  Is it just because of him running with Howell?  Otherwise, your vibe about what they did on the unit and just in general of roster building -- seems to very much in Ron's camp. 

He’s playing a raw 5th round rookie QB that is magnetically attracted to getting sacked in the 4th year of his regime lol. That’s insanity. 
 

I’d think issues would be expected even if the line was a strong point. The roster itself is ready to win except for the most important position. 

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This team competed by running the ball and focusing on the short passing game. Sam carried us for that second half and is clearly someone worth developing. Even still, there were no clean pockets and he constantly had to adjust his mark in his drop backs. And yes, he held the ball too long on a couple of plays, but most of it seemed by design.

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I can’t be mad , we played well I feel the offense gave us the most consistent performance In the ron Rivera era . Defense was very up and down tho and Cody Barton should be benched . 
 

Howell looked like a franchise guy today and completely had me look dumb saying he would be terrible today .

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7 minutes ago, srtman04 said:

Nice try Sam....you are our QB moving forward for sure.   I can't think of any QB's within the past 20 years that can move the ball over 60 yards with 80 secs left to score a TD.   We finally have something here....

 

Kirk has done that before. More than once too. 

If memory serves me correctly. 

 

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