The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I agree w/you until the very end.

 

I think its more a case of Daniels has never had to play with garbage supporting cast, it's not that he's going to be horrible w/o one, it's that we don't know how much his play falls off if he's suddenly no longer playing with a litany of top 20 caliber draft picks, and day 2 supporting cast level #2-#3 WR's etc. We just don't know because ASU and LSU did a fantastic job of recruiting talent onto his offenses. As you say, we know Maye can play no matter how ----- the supporting cast, Daniels? No idea. 

 

That's fair. But I'm a "I'll believe it when I see it" kind of guy. We haven't seen Daniels do it, so we can't assume he can.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Dah-Dee said:

These are weak arguments against Daniels being the pick and just make Maye supporters look bad/desperate. The better arguments are the obvious ones: Daniels' lesser arm strength, bad stable metrics, propensity to run vs. pass under pressure, apparent reluctance to throw over the middle, reckless running combined with a slight frame. 

 

The arguments that look bad to me are the ones that ignore reality, like claiming there wasn't an ocean of difference in the quality of the situation Daniels and Maye played in last year.  Do you really want to claim that Tez Walker wasn't that much worse than Marvin Harrison Jr because of drop rates?  Do you really want to claim that Omarion Hampton was the reason UNC won the Duke game?  That is the kind of specious nonsense that looks bad.  That Clemson game you're citing as evidence of the quality of Drake's supporting cast?  OMarion Hampton fumbled the ball into the endzone on his big run and caused a touchback, and Tez Walker dropped a 40 yard bomb that hit him in his hands in the fourth quarter that would have kept the game from getting out of hand.  Having one decent weapon is nothing like having three great ones, nevermind the massive difference in quality of the OLs.  And the differences in situation extend well beyond the other players in the offense.  UNC was dysfunctional last year, the coaches were a mess and struggled with just getting plays in during games.  The staff at LSU was legitimately excellent.  They had a magical season whereas Drake Maye spent the year bailing water for a sinking program.  Ignoring this huge difference in situation is sticking your head in the sand.  And so is ignoring the difference in the way each player responded to program dysfunction.  Jayden played like crap in 2021 and then transferred out, with his mom badmouthing the team.

[The Consigliere]

25 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The thing is, the argument isn't "Who was the better college QB in 2023?" That answer is Daniels without a doubt. There is no arguing against that. He was a fantastic college QB. No doubts.

 

But we don't want the best college QB. We want the guy whos game best translates to the NFL in 2024 and for the next decade+ beyond.

Agreed. We're on the same page, and I remain utterly befuddled at how thoroughly Daniels has charmed teams. I cannot decide whether its just based on data we don't have access too, or if its just more of the stupid we saw in '23 with Young, '22 with Pickett, Ridder and the rest, '21 with Lance, Wilson, JOnes, '20 with incompetent evaluations of Herbert, '19 with the Danny Dimes love etc.

 

On the one hand, maybe they know things we don't, otoh, in the past they've habitually been wrong when they have evals like this that don't make any sense. So....I'm skeptical. Only aspect of me that's hopeful (if we do make the pick) is that he was a mega recruit and he was always good in college. It's not like he was ever bad or mediocre, he ranged from above average early on to good to superb by the end. But we're in agreement in general: he ticks a gazillion future bust metrics, he's overage, he does not have the frame and so is an injury risk, could go on and on, it doesnt really make sense unless they have proprietary information we lack that would show Maye much more alarming and Daniels much more exciting or.....

 

They're just wrong like they so often are. 

 

I tend to go with the later. The only thing that gives me pause is the processing piece which is just so so so freaking huge for QB's. If he can process information like they're selling, he is gonna hit, the question is just can he stay healthy. But I'm skeptical that they know why people are good at processing and if it transfers. Young was supposed to be a superhero of processing and Stroud was suppossed to be horrific, and then in the NFL, Young was utterly hopeless, and Stroud was a total monster....so.....I remain worried. I don't think they know what they think they know. 

[mac8887]

I like Keims take about Kyle McCord. He was throwing to elite talent at Ohio state and wasn’t good. You’ve got to be a good qb to make use of the good talent around you. And while I think we can all agree that Daniels had better talent around himself, I hope we can all agree that LSU had played against much better talent than UNC did. 
 

One reason I get so excited about Jayden is that he really improved a lot this year. And by all accounts it wasn’t his physical traits that improved, it was his processing and decision making. To me, these are the most important traits a qb can have, and JD has shown the ability to really get better in this department 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, The Consigliere said:

 

I tend to go with the later. The only thing that gives me pause is the processing piece which is just so so so freaking huge for QB's. If he can process information like they're selling, he is gonna hit, the question is just can he stay healthy. But I'm skeptical that they know why people are good at processing and if it transfers. Young was supposed to be a superhero of processing and Stroud was suppossed to be horrific, and then in the NFL, Young was utterly hopeless, and Stroud was a total monster....so.....I remain worried. I don't think they know what they think they know. 

 

According to Jay Gruden at least, the best way for them to test it is in these team visits, longer meetings-discussion and tests happen.  So this week should be interesting,

[Fred Jones]

Daniels looks great, but my biggest issue with him is it took what five years.  Five years to master the NFL - fine.  Five years to master college ball with great offensive weapons and a solid Oline?

 

I am glad the light clicked on.  He is also a very hard worker from what people say.  So, he had to work "first in - last out" to take five years to get to the top of College Football?

 

I am sure someone has gone back and looked at all the QB's that made it in the NFL and look back and see how long it took them.

 

Not saying he won't succeed, but a red flag for me.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

According to Jay Gruden at least, the best way for them to test it is in these team visits, longer meetings-discussion and tests happen.  So this week should be interesting,

Yep. Its how the Chiefs got sold on Mahomes. He blew them away during their team visit.  But it turns out, Matt Nagy and Brett Veach liked him so much they actually let him cheat by giving him a copy of the playbook before the visit so he could study up and knock Andy Reid's socks off.

 

Would love to be a fly on the wall during these meetings.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 minute ago, Fred Jones said:

Daniels looks great, but my biggest issue with him is it took what five years.  Five years to master the NFL - fine.  Five years to master college ball with great offensive weapons and a solid Oline?

He also didn’t really master college ball. His coaches asked him to stop doing things that he wasn’t good at. Unfortunately, those are things he is going to need to do in the NFL.

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Yeah there is no chance the Pats move down. But taking McCarthy at #3 over Daniels is...interesting. If we don't take Daniels I could see him falling all the way to 5. Vikings will then trade up for him I'd assume, but honestly it wouldn't shock me if the Vikings preference is McCarthy also.

[SoCalSkins]

Pats going from Bledsoe to Brady to Maye with a small detour on Mac Jones is just not fair. 😂 

 

Come on Adam help us out buddy! 

[clskinsfan]

3 hours ago, HogsVa7 said:

Some of you guys are going to get your feelings hurt when we draft Daniels. It's obvious what we're going to do. The free agent signings has a lot to do with how we are improving the team. They have clearly said we are not in a rebuild mode but we are going to be competitive and compete for Super Bowls. Drake Maye doesn't do anything for us this year if he's on this team. He has a lot of work to do. He doesn't have the IT factor. He's not a game changer at all. Some of yall think I'm trolling,  but im not. I've seen just about all his games because I'm a die hard Uva fan which lol.... doesn't say much but they beat him, so I've seen plenty of ACC football this year. Stay away from him. His mechanics is awful and just with the eye test he doesn't have it. Jayden Daniels right now fits us better especially with Kliff Kingsbury system.  A lot of you guys always project for the future. It's always next year and build for the future. The Snyder era has gotten to yall. Their is a new regime and they're ready to roll. It Daniels. 

I dont think Daniels is anywhere near a lock to be the pick. Nor do I think Maye is incapable of starting day one. And this team build through free agency was to provide leadership in the locker room. It has nothing to do with a win now mentality imo. It may be Daniels. I tend to agree that on paper he is a better fit for Kingsbury. But Kingsbury isnt the one making the pick either. And Maye would be damn good in his system. He ran a similar system in 2022. 

[clskinsfan]

1 hour ago, Kalu44 said:

You can get away with an average arm,

In a perfect setting? Yes. In the NFCE in December? Not so sure. 

[TheGoodBits]

23 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah there is no chance the Pats move down. But taking McCarthy at #3 over Daniels is...interesting. If we don't take Daniels I could see him falling all the way to 5. Vikings will then trade up for him I'd assume, but honestly it wouldn't shock me if the Vikings preference is McCarthy also.

I didn't read it like they'd take Maye/McCarthy over Daniels. I read it like this scenario assumes Daniels goes #2 and they have their pick between the other two. 

[Skinsinparadise]

59 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah there is no chance the Pats move down. But taking McCarthy at #3 over Daniels is...interesting. If we don't take Daniels I could see him falling all the way to 5. Vikings will then trade up for him I'd assume, but honestly it wouldn't shock me if the Vikings preference is McCarthy also.

 

That's not about not taking Daniels unless something new has happened as to Breers takes.  Breer continues to harp that Daniels is gone at #2 to Washington so he keeps the discussion about Maye versus McCarthy to NE.

35 minutes ago, TheGoodBits said:

I didn't read it like they'd take Maye/McCarthy over Daniels. I read it like this scenario assumes Daniels goes #2 and they have their pick between the other two. 

 

Yep.

Edited April 15 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

I don't think JD is a lock either.

 

I do acknowledge the lean and feel good about the process tho.

[The Consigliere]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

According to Jay Gruden at least, the best way for them to test it is in these team visits, longer meetings-discussion and tests happen.  So this week should be interesting,

Yeah, I've gotten the sense they kind of due a hyper more detailed version of that John Gruden QB room show back in the day where they try to diagnose details and analyze how they'd react to particular coverages, and what not. 

[The Consigliere]

37 minutes ago, Fred Jones said:

Daniels looks great, but my biggest issue with him is it took what five years.  Five years to master the NFL - fine.  Five years to master college ball with great offensive weapons and a solid Oline?

 

I am glad the light clicked on.  He is also a very hard worker from what people say.  So, he had to work "first in - last out" to take five years to get to the top of College Football?

 

I am sure someone has gone back and looked at all the QB's that made it in the NFL and look back and see how long it took them.

 

Not saying he won't succeed, but a red flag for me.

when I try to steel man Daniels, I try to remember and be honest with the idea that he was always good. It's not like he was ---- any of those seasons. he wasn't, he just didn't look like an elite NFL prospect until last year, before that he was good, but it sounds like more a late day 2 to mid day 3 guy based on his ASU performances, and LSU in '22 put him in day 2 conversations. So its not that he was bad, he just was, nothing special, which Drake was from the moment he started his first game, and generally speaking, that is regardless of position, probably the single most nfl translatable trait.

 

As previously mentioned, Daniels was 55th in QBR in '19, '20 was a wash due to the covid shortened season (Daniels was top 10 that year though), 41st in '21, 18th in '22, and then 1 in '23. Maye was 10th in his first year as a starter in '22 and 14th in '23. Far less volatility and unlike Daniels, absolutely killed it from the jump (though the Daniels shortened season in '20 was intriguing (but again, its 4 games). 

 

If you breakout and blow up immediately, you tend to bust far far less than other guys. It just ends up being a bit more nuanced with Daniels because he wasn't Pickett level bad early on, he was fine, just not special, but like Pickett, his final season was orders of magnitude far better than any other season. It would not bother me half as much if he produced that season in '20 or '21, but it came in his fifth year, and I've seen that so many times, and literally the only example I remember of a guy who did that, and didnt bust was probably Burrow, and to be fair, Cam Newton as well, but he was a JUCO transfer, so there was a reason you didn't see those numbers from him in '08 or whatever. With Daniels, he didn't do it, period. Im highly skeptical of guys that take that long for a reason. It usually doesn't turn out well, and is a sign a guy isn't special, period. That's not always true, but it usually is. 

Edited April 15 by The Consigliere

[CommanderInTheRye]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

“Adam’s superpower is finding what the team needs,” Quinn says. “It’s not always the same, no matter where you’re at. He’s scouted at New England, which is different than Denver, which was different than San Francisco. Getting everybody together to know exactly what we’re looking for and how we want to play, that’s really important. This time right now between coaches and scouts is good to have discussions."

 

"...Adam’s superpower is finding what the team needs..."

 

I've noticed that DQ has referred on multiple occasions to players, prospects and now his general manager's "superpower".

 

IIRC he said that Maye's superpower was being able to create and run or pass when things broke down, and Jayden's superpower was his ability to process post-snap coverages quickly.

 

I like that. It's an empowering way of looking at people.

 

I mean, who wouldn't love to hear someone sincerely tell them that they have a specific superpower attribute?

 

I suspect he does this for all of his players, to reinforce it in their minds, in their imagination. To get them to creatively visualize it.

 

To make them see it, and believe it, so that they can achieve it.

 

This is very powerful stuff.

 

 

Edited April 15 by CommanderInTheRye

[Ghost of]

2 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

Yea I feel like that was his worst game passing. Dude was very sus but no one agrees with me. 

*dons bronzer* "I like quarterbacks who beat Nick Saban in the Rose Bowl and have to lead a comeback drive to do it."

 

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

"...Adam’s superpower is finding what the team needs..."

 

I've noticed that DQ has referred on multiple occasions to players, prospects and now his general manager's "superpower".

 

IIRC he said that Maye's superpower was being able to create and run or pass when things broke down, and Jayden's superpower was his ability to process post-snap coverages quickly.

 

I like that. It's an empowering way of looking at people.

 

I mean, who wouldn't love to hear someone sincerely tell them that they have a specific superpower attribute?

 

I suspect he does this for all of his players, to reinforce it in their minds, in their imagination. To get them to creatively visualize it.

 

To make them see it, and believe it, so that they can achieve it.

 

This is very powerful stuff.

 

 

 

Yeah, he likes the superpower term.

 

Reading about Peters-Quinn.  The odds that they take a QB that can win in 2024 and be damn about the rest of their careers is zero to me.  I know to some here that means they for sure are taking Drake Maye.  I like Drake Maye but i don't think he's the only answer.  It's like comparing pizza and burgers.  It's a totally different drill.  i got no idea what they prefer.

 

But I do know enough reading about Harris and Peters that they aren't taking the QB who they feel internally isn't the best long term bet.  Zero chance.

 

If you read some posts here, Daniels is some raw prospect who can possibly get us some cheap wins this year and then flame out but fear Quinn-Peters might be perfectly fine with that.  That's silly IMO.

 

I like Maye's upside more.  But I am not in the my opinion is fact crowd.    It's not like a QB who can run 4.4, says he's seeing the field better than ever, is accurate, has sound mechanics, and works like crazy is somewhat tapped out at 23 as to their development.  Kirk at 24, heck even 25 was a bit of a mess, but he worked like a maniac and kept getting better.  If they pick Daniels IMO no shot that they are yawning about his upside.

Edited April 15 by Skinsinparadise

[CommanderInTheRye]

57 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah there is no chance the Pats move down. But taking McCarthy at #3 over Daniels is...interesting. If we don't take Daniels I could see him falling all the way to 5. Vikings will then trade up for him I'd assume, but honestly it wouldn't shock me if the Vikings preference is McCarthy also.

 

 

I think the implied assumption is that when the Patriots pick, neither Caleb Williams nor Jayden Daniels will be available. (Breer is among those who speculate that the Commanders are likely drafting Jayden Daniels.)

 

So that the Patriots would be forced to choose between Maye or McCarthy, if they intend to draft a quarterback.

 

EDIT:

 

Just noticed @TheGoodBits said the same thing before I did and even worse-- he said it much better. lol

 

Sorry.

Edited April 15 by CommanderInTheRye

[Ghost of]

So, as you know, I've detailed how McCarthy was a Heisman contender (not that he would have won) before he hurt his ankle during the Penn State game (which is why they ran the entire second half and leaned on the run during the Harbaugh suspension after that.)

 

Apparently, before the State championship game as a sophomore he had broken the thumb on his throwing hand.  He threw for 300+ and multiple TDs and won the game with his team (the State title in Illinois.)  It was some time before the news of the injury came out.

 

Yet he goes out there and performs, makes enough key plays to win titles.  You guys know he was a five star recruit and threw a 61 mph ball at the combine (just behind Joe Milton and I believe Mahomes has thrown at 62mph as well)? He has an arm maybe he needs to improve some aspect of his motion to get more distance.  He has processing ability, that is a pro offense, run heavy but pro at Michigan. He is 21 and part of drafting QB now is projecting traits including processing, leadership, toughness.  His mom won't be going to the concussion protocol tent, although I'm sure he loves his mother very much.

 

*In before "he's injury prone!"*

Edited April 15 by Ghost of

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I wouldn’t say he led that drive. My recollection is that Michigan took over 1st and 10 from their own 25 down by 7 with their season on the line and the coaches proceeded to call two run plays and then JJ threw one right into a defender on 3rd down that fortunately fell incomplete and then a little dink pass on a speed out in the flat to a motioning Blake Corum that he took for 30 yards. His only other completions on the drive were a tipped pass that fell into the hands of a wide open receiver and a TD pass from the 4 yard line.

 

Saying he led the drive is just people trying to convince themselves that he did more than he ever actually did which is the whole story on this kid.

 

Edited April 15 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[CommanderInTheRye]

32 minutes ago, TheGoodBits said:

I didn't read it like they'd take Maye/McCarthy over Daniels. I read it like this scenario assumes Daniels goes #2 and they have their pick between the other two. 

 

Just saw that you said essentially the same thing I did.

 

My bad.