The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Jumbo]

16 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Tim Cahill might be slightly random for the very casual (or recent) soccer fan but he played for a long time in the Prem. Good player. But Rio Ferdinand was/is a legit star. He messed up leaving Leeds United but his career just about survived that misstep ...

 

(He actually got out just before Leeds - the team I support - imploded financially and won a boat load of titles with the hated Man U. To give that context imagine Terry McLaurin signing for Dallas and winning 4 Super Bowl titles with them).

  

I have tons of respect for soccer and enjoy watching school games, from 12 to 28 to, for many years. I like watching the Olympic soccer games.

 

I've watched a number of "individual" sports all along but I don't watch pro team sport games other than NFL the last thirty years.

 

I know zip beyond the thin layer of team and player names, or their history,  that the average American sports fan might know.

 

I add all this off topic content, prompted by your post,  to set-up my saying I've always thought if I started to seriously follow soccer I would pick Leeds just because one of my all time fave albums from one of my  all time fave bands is The Who's Live at Leeds. 😛

[mac8887]

31 minutes ago, Kalu44 said:

I’m not sure why the debate is so hard. Even if Daniels is more talented than Maye (debatable), he simply won’t survive in the NFL with that frame and his penchant for running. One big hit and that could end his season. I don’t want to hold my breath every time he gets hit.  I’d rather Maye, as he has a better chance of staying healthy in the long run.

 

You can’t help your team while being on IR.

Yeah and he went to LSU, and LSU QBs get injured easy. Look at what Chase Young did to Burrow. One big hit, and bam, done for the year.

 

Im only kidding of course, but you are right, his slight build and willingness to take on contact, sometimes unwarranted, does increase his injury risk factor, but not so much so that it makes the choice easy. 
 

In my opinion, Jayden’s pressure to sack ratio would carry more weight as a negative against him.

 

The choice will be whoever the team thinks is a better player, and better fit for the team. And it will be many factors that are included in the decision making.

 

injury risk will be factored in, but not a deal breaker necessarily.

 

 

[BayouBrave86]

47 minutes ago, Kalu44 said:

I’m not sure why the debate is so hard. Even if Daniels is more talented than Maye (debatable), he simply won’t survive in the NFL with that frame and his penchant for running. One big hit and that could end his season. I don’t want to hold my breath every time he gets hit.  I’d rather Maye, as he has a better chance of staying healthy in the long run.

 

You can’t help your team while being on IR.

One big hit could ruin anyone’s season.  Daniels bends but doesn’t break. He is basically Gumby  I’m starting to think the Raiders try and trade up for him if Maye is the choice at 2.

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

I think it is a legit concern. When his footwork is sloppy he is not accurate. When it is solid he is incredible. Maye is my number 2 by a quite a lot. But there is nothing wrong with pointing out the things the guy is going to need to be coached up on. All of these guys are projects to some extent. 

 

Right, which is why I wasn't trying to completely dismiss it. His footwork being inconsistent is definitely something he'll have to work on.

 

My only issue is that some people seem to throw it out there as if the dude can barely walk straight without falling into ACME holes like some Loony Toons character. The majority of the time he actually has very good footwork.

 

But he also absolutely has to work on getting it more consistent, especially when under duress and on short drops.

 

It's a bit like the meme of Jayden Daniels constantly getting blown up by hits. Has it happened? Yes. Is it a concern? Yes. Does it happen nearly as much as some people make it out to happen? No.

Edited March 5 by mistertim

[woodpecker]

28 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

 

In my opinion, Jayden’s pressure to sack ratio would carry more weight as a negative against him.

 

Agreed. Elite pass protection and elite speed to escape… So why does he take so many sacks?

[DogofWar1]

I'm so confused at the rumors in the last 24 hours.

 

Like as we hit the weekend, and through the weekend, scuttlebutt was:

- Caleb consensus #1, Maye 80/20 #2, Jayden 3, JJ rising.

 

But now we got Rich Eisen out here saying he's hearing Jayden QB2 from combine scuttlebutt, with minority for Maye.

 

It's times like this when I want to tie John Keim to a chair in a room with one light bulb and pick his brain.

[ThatNFLChick]

2 minutes ago, woodpecker said:

Agreed. Elite pass protection and elite speed to escape… So why does he take so many sacks?

 

He took less sacks than Williams and Maye last year.

 

I don't think most people understand what pressure to sack ratio actually means. 

[mac8887]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

QBR wise, he was 28th, 17th, 17th, counting stats wise, he was awful as a rook, inside the top 10 as a 2nd year guy and then fell back to mediocre in '23. I think the injury thing in '23 tells a big story, a big part of '23, but it is kinda funny, a bit reminiscent of how things have gone for Fields. I had assumed with Christian Kirk in place, and a healthy Etienne he'd blow up this year, but it didn't happen, was it injury or something else? I'm not sure. 

 

Im not as sold as you are in how good he'd be in the NFC, yes, just like 1983, the AFC has grabbed the best of the QB's to come out since '17, and so has an inherently more competitive, more difficult conference wide qualities, but Lawrence was hidden until '23 in the worst of the divisions. Now with Stroud and Richardson landing in the South, its gonna get much harder. In the NFC, I don't know if he'd dominate, because lets be clear. He hasn't been good, really, ever since college. He's been above average to average (in '22), a bit below average in '23, and outright poor as a rookie in '21. He's not gonna suddenly dominate because the NFC is QB lacking, the NFC still has some great defenses and offenses, the Chiefs barely won and probably should have lost the last two super bowls, the Bengals lost the one previous to that. 

 

I just didn't see this coming. I had him as just a smidge below Luck in terms of upside, but he hasn't been, at all, I liked him better than Burrow as well, and Herbert pretty easily. This QB thing is hard as hell to figure. 

 

I didn’t see his upside the same way you did, but I did figure he’d come in and be at least middle of the pack with room to grow into a top 5 guy.

 

He did look to be breaking out after his second year, but he wasn’t able to follow that up, and actually regressed, but who knows how much the injury was a factor.

 

Sometimes I think we fans have a lower cut off point on what is considered a “franchise qb” than the teams do. We want our “franchise qb” to be a top 5 guy every year.
 

Pretty much every qb that earns a second, or third contract, or every qb that’s on a rookie contract that is pretty much a lock to get extended, is someone Id consider a “franchise qb”, and someone that I’d love to have here.

 

Once these teams find a guy they think can get them to the playoffs more often than not, they usually lock them down. I think Trevor falls in this category.

 

 

[woodpecker]

5 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

He took less sacks than Williams and Maye last year.

 

I don't think most people understand what pressure to sack ratio actually means. 

No, I think everyone understands the concept of sacks per pressure. It’s not the the same as total sacks, so not sure your point fits here.
 

And I think it’s pretty well documented that a guy like Maye faced a lot more pressure, and a lot faster pressure on a regular basis. 

[illone]

Rick Spielman is such a dingleberry. How did that guy run a team for so long?

 

 

 

[mistertim]

4 hours ago, mac8887 said:

He drifts backwards and to the right a lot instead of planting at the top of his drop.  He does it Backwards and to the left as well but not as often. He needs to work on planting and sliding left, right, or up in the pocket.

 

Maybe he just didn’t trust his line and it’ll be an easy fix. If not, He needs to watch a lot of Drew Brees tape, his footwork was flawless.
 

Brees could take 1 step to the side and make people just whiff somehow. He was truly amazing 

 

I've seen Maye do that some a well, though I also think that a fair amount of time it's because he knows where pressure is coming from.

 

If you watch the segment where Maye sits with Colt McCoy and breaks down his tape from one of his games, there's actually one specific play where he's walking through it and his thought process, and he specifically points out that he knows the defender on the left side is coming in an overload blitz. He has his matchup on the right in a 1-on-1 so he shifts the protection, gets the snap, intentionally drifts a little to his right in order to buy himself and his receiver a second of extra time, and then lets it loose for a TD.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

  

I have tons of respect for soccer and enjoy watching school games, from 12 to 28 to, for many years. I like watching the Olympic soccer games.

 

I've watched a number of "individual" sports all along but I don't watch pro team sport games other than NFL the last thirty years.

 

I know zip beyond the thin layer of team and player names, or their history,  that the average American sports fan might know.

 

I add all this off topic content, prompted by your post,  to set-up my saying I've always thought if I started to seriously follow soccer I would pick Leeds just because one of my all time fave albums from one of my  all time fave bands is The Who's Live at Leeds. 😛

 

Forgive this off topic indulgence.

 

Following Leeds over the last 20 years or so has been a not dissimilar experience to following Washington (insert team name here). Back in 1991 Leeds United won the old First Division (it changed its name to the Premier League the year after). The same year the Redskins won the Super Bowl. What a year for me as a fan of both teams.

 

Since then its been a bumpy ride. To say the least.

 

Leeds are owned by 49ers Enterprises now so there is US connection. If you ever get to England a trip to see a game at Elland Road is experience. Its an amazing atmosphere. These are the scenes a couple of weeks after we beat Leicester City (when we win we end with the PA playing a song called "We predict a riot ..."). Its a hell of a day out.

 

The one empty section you see is where the away fans were sat. No home fan leaves early on nights like this.

 

 

[mac8887]

1 hour ago, woodpecker said:

Agreed. Elite pass protection and elite speed to escape… So why does he take so many sacks?

He’s not looking to throw once he gets moved off his spot. And he is very risk averse.
 

I don’t think the route tree helps him much either. Most of what they run are outside of the hashes. I think this might be designed in mind to open up the middle of the field to give him room to make some moves with his legs once he gets past the line of scrimmage on a well covered play. Especially since there aren’t many college linebackers fast enough to spy him.

 

The more eligible receivers on the outside means more defenders on the outside, which limits escape ability to those parts of the field.

 

While this does create space for him to make big plays with his legs, he has to first get into this open part of the field by going in between the tackles. If the receivers are covered well on these high low outside routes, he gets bottlenecked, with the fastest defenders close to the easiest places to get to, to avoid sacks. 
 

Add this to the fact that he doesn’t like to throw once moved off spot, and it’s a sack recipe waiting to happen.

Edited March 5 by mac8887

[mac8887]

22 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I've seen Maye do that some a well, though I also think that a fair amount of time it's because he knows where pressure is coming from.

 

If you watch the segment where Maye sits with Colt McCoy and breaks down his tape from one of his games, there's actually one specific play where he's walking through it and his thought process, and he specifically points out that he knows the defender on the left side is coming in an overload blitz. He has his matchup on the right in a 1-on-1 so he shifts the protection, gets the snap, intentionally drifts a little to his right in order to buy himself and his receiver a second of extra time, and then lets it loose for a TD.

I’ve seen that film review, that was a great play and his footwork was superb there because it was done intentionally.

 

To many times with him though he will drift without the rush, seemingly unaware he is doing it and puts himself closer to the pass rushers than what he would’ve been.

 

I think this will somewhat naturally fix itself as he learns the pro game and trusts his eyes more and more, he has the height to allow for maximum field vision.

 

The coaches will also demand he trust his line more and this should help to, I don’t think he had any faith in his line, he threw off back foot a lot.

 

Hopefully this will be an easy fix, and once it is, it will in turn fix his accuracy concerns as well. His footwork leads to him arming the ball sometimes instead of throwing it.

 

He could have a lot worse to clean up, many do.  he’s actually a pretty clean prospect. While you’d like to see guys get a year or so to clean these kind of things up, his talent and physical traits won’t allow that to happen, he has to much going for him to sit him a year.

 

thats the difference between a guy like Maye and Howell. Maye just has to much going for him and will be expected to learn on the go.

[ThatNFLChick]

22 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

He’s not looking to throw once he gets moved off his spot. And he is very risk averse.
 

I don’t think the route tree helps him much either. Most of what they run are outside of the hashes. I think this might be designed in mind to open up the middle of the field to give him room to make some moves with his legs once he gets past the line of scrimmage on a well covered play. Especially since there aren’t many college linebackers fast enough to spy him.

 

The more eligible receivers on the outside means more defenders on the outside, which limits escape ability to those parts of the field.

 

While this does create space for him make big plays with his legs, he has to first get into this open part of the field by going in between the tackles. If the receivers are covered well on these high low outside routes, he gets bottlenecked, with the fastest defenders close to the easiest places to get to, to avoid sacks. 
 

Add this to the fact that he doesn’t like to throw once moved off spot, and it’s a sack recipe waiting to happen.

 

I think he just has to be coached to keep his eyes up more. You can tell when he takes off to run he's looking to see who he can make miss or where he can cut to take it to the house. When he does look up, good things happen but its a delicate balance between deciding when you can tuck it and run 50 yards and keeping your eyes up and making plays like this:

 

 

[Warhead36]

That's honestly a WR highlight reel more than a QB one IMO

[JMURedskins]

13 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

That's honestly a WR highlight reel more than a QB one IMO

You could say that about most of highlights with Nabors, Thomas or even Chase/Jefferson/Marshall with Burrow. Can he not get any credit due to his WR?

 

I mean every throw was on point.  The Thomas catches were more to wide open but he hit him in stride.  The Nabors catches were more contested minus the last one. Daniels threw it where only he could catch it.

Edited March 5 by JMURedskins

[ThatNFLChick]

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

That's honestly a WR highlight reel more than a QB one IMO

 

The first one is what I am referring to. Its a great play for Daniels. He evades pressure, keeps his eyes downfield while moving out of the pocket and puts the ball in front ot BTJ and hits him right in stride. Good on BTJ too for realizing he moved out of the pocket, changing his route and giving his QB another area to throw to. 

Edited March 5 by ThatNFLChick

[mac8887]

17 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

I think he just has to be coached to keep his eyes up more. You can tell when he takes off to run he's looking to see who he can make miss or where he can cut to take it to the house. When he does look up, good things happen but its a delicate balance between deciding when you can tuck it and run 50 yards and keeping your eyes up and making plays like this:

 

 

He will definitely need to fix this issue, especially with these hybrid type backer/safeties in the league now that won’t have any problem spying him, at the very least they will be able to force angles to cut off the big run.

 

Im not sure this is going to be an easy fix and it’s one of the reasons I’m not as high on Daniels as before. How he sees the field in a clean pocket compared to when moving is night and day. In a clean pocket, with time, he is the best in this group at finding the most open guy. It’s just odd that it doesn’t translate well on the move, he might not of really ever had to because of his speed, but he will at the next level, no doubt. 
 

Including high school, and college, he’s looking at 8 years of this habit that he has, that is not optimal for pro ball, that he will have to break to succeed.

 

Edited March 5 by mac8887

[BayouBrave86]

Still think there is a shot of Jayden going number 1. And we end up with Caleb?

[clskinsfan]

44 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

He’s not looking to throw once he gets moved off his spot.

True. Also if anyone lays a hand on him in the pocket he is going down. There is no throw coming from him once he takes any contact at all. He has a long ways to go. 

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, BayouBrave86 said:

Still think there is a shot of Jayden going number 1. And we end up with Caleb?

Not in this universe

[BayouBrave86]

11 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

The first one is what I am referring to. Its a great play for Daniels. He evades pressure, keeps his eyes downfield while moving out of the pocket and puts the ball in front ot BTJ and hits him right in stride. Good on BTJ too for realizing he moved out of the pocket, changing his route and giving his QB another area to throw to. 

The LSU WRs while uber talented were lazy on a lot of routes too. That was a big pain point for the offense this season even though they still ran through everyone. 

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Not in this universe

Ah I worded it poorly. I’m saying I still believe there is a chance. And us ending up with Caleb would make me  laugh and cry at the same time. 

[DogofWar1]

As much back and forth as there is in terms of Daniels-Maye scuttlebutt, the opposite is true for Caleb.

 

Every single person out there at the combine has not heard from anyone in the actual NFL megastructure that Caleb is anything but QB1.  I think he's locked into the first pick, and I don't think the Bears deal that.  They'll send Fields off for a 4th or swallow him for a year before they trade that pick.