The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Dah-Dee]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

It's fascinating how hating on Josh Allen has somehow brought together a Disciple of Daniels and a Church of Caleb person. Very odd days these are.

 

Wait. I thought it was Cult of Caleb. Is this a splinter group? Cause if we've got some disgruntled Caleb followers, I invite them to join me in Bo's Blabberwockies.

Edited February 25 by Dah-Dee

[DogofWar1]

Am I misremembering or did Drew Brees not have the highest velocity on his throws?  IIRC wayyyyyy back in the day it was talked about how he had great touch but not a cannon plus was short.  I googled it and saw some readings of 50-52 mph which is on the slower side.

[ThatNFLChick]

Just now, mistertim said:

It's fascinating how hating on Josh Allen has somehow brought together a Disciple of Daniels and a Church of Caleb person. Very odd days these are.

 

First of all, my opinion on Josh Allen has nothing to do with the QBs in this draft. It has to do with the fact that I have always felt like too many excuses have been made for Josh Allen. Also I clearly called him a top 5 QB. That's not "hating" on him nor is pointing out that he's been given everything people said he needed and still hasn't gotten it done. 

[HTTRDynasty]

Arm talent:

 

 

[clskinsfan]

4 minutes ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

Wait. I thought it was Cult of Caleb. Is this a splinter group? Cause if we've got some disgruntled Caleb followers, I invite them to join me in Bo's Blabberwockies.

I have been here like 20 years. And the only cult of QB I would be in is Calebs. But whatever.

[NOLA2DC]

7 hours ago, Conn said:

 

Seeing the exchanging of opinions here as pointless is my entire reason for asking you to expand. Why be on a message board then? I haven’t once tried to change your opinion btw. I asked that you examine the idea that your mind can’t be changed, which is counterproductive for any “debate” (you and I are not debating btw, I haven’t quoted any of your posts and pushed Maye or questioned Daniels. You’re just so defensive that you assumed I did). I never even mentioned Daniels in any of my posts towards you—simply asked you to expand on why you feel the way you do, if you’re going to repeat your opinion so much. 

 

 

This makes me question if you’ve even read any of the posts you’re responding to from me. I have never once asked for this. Never implied I’m trying to get you to prove your beliefs with some final answer type analytic. I asked that if you’re going to post over and over about your preference, could you break down the specific reasons you feel that way—and questioned why you flatly refused to compare the players side by side, given your confident opinion. 
 

I don’t want to change your mind (though I think this place is better when people are open to it—we’re all wrong, A LOT), I wanted you to expand on your reasoning. I appreciate that you tried to do so. I’m not one of the people in here whose mind is made up. I started as a Daniels person because I thought we’d be drafting somewhere between #3 and #8, that’s where I started my hopeful evaluations—I came in biased towards him because I spent so long thinking that’s the best we could do. @Skinsinparadise started talking about him as a top-8 possibility when #2 still seemed out of reach and Howell was still the man to many people.
 

I became a Maye person once it became clear we could secure the #2 spot. I still heavily lean that way, but I’m not entrenched or unable to change my mind. The stuff I’ve seen in this thread favors Maye imo, but I think it’s possible that’s due to the quality of the posting being done in their favor. It’s the whole reason I asked why you were unwilling to expand on your reasoning. The reason being that you think everyone is unable to change their minds is revealing, and that’s what I attempted to point out. 

Some of my responses may take on a general tone as more than one person has requested examples. As I said in another post, I have seen him make enough NFL-caliber throws to feel he can do it at the next level. I've seen throw with anticipation (release the ball before the receiver comes out his break). I've seen him throw the ball with touch over the backers right in front the safeties, and I've seen him drive the ball in a tight window with defender on his receiver's back. So yes, I am satisfied with his arm strength. 

He's the thing, though: arm strength is not the defining attribute of a great QB. Plenty of guys with canons flame out. Ryan Leaf had a stronger arm than Peyton and we all know who the better QB was.

There are clips of all these guys on every other page page but some posters keep saying "show me". Is it that some people don't watch those clips or think I haven't watched them?   

[clskinsfan]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Arm talent:

 

 

Be careful bro. The Daniels clan will tell you he can make this throw right here. Opposite hash 60 yarder on a rope in stride While getting hammered on the blind side. Yep. Nothing special to see here at all. 

 

 

Edited February 25 by clskinsfan

[MartinC]

8 minutes ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

Wait. I thought it was Cult of Caleb. Is this a splinter group? Cause if we've got some disgruntled Caleb followers, I invite them to join me in Bo's Blabberwockies.

 

[NOLA2DC]

11 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m not saying his arm isn’t strong enough to play in the pros.  What I’m saying is that to be effective, you have to have the confidence and ability in your reads and arm to fit the ball into tight windows.  That’s not something I’ve seen enough of from Daniels.

"Enough from" is the operative term. Daniels has improved as a player every year, and Maye seemed to have an off year compared to 2022. The same can be said for Caleb, as his 22 season was better than his 23 season. I do not think that disqualifies Maye or Williams. I have not said at any point Maye is overrated. In my opinion, I think Daniels brings a little more to the table as a dual-threat guy.  Ultimately, this is what it boils down to as fans.  

[dunfer]

nflchick dated Josh it all makes sense

[ThatNFLChick]

Just now, dunfer said:

nflchick dated Josh it all makes sense

 

Yall are so weird. Because I said Josh is a top 5 QB but makes dumb decisions? It's probably not just me if you are 6 years into your career and Tom Brady still feels the need to tell you to stop being an idiot with the ball. 

[dunfer]

Just now, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Yall are so weird. Because I said Josh is a top 5 QB but makes dumb decisions? It's probably not just me if you are 6 years into your career and Tom Brady still feels the need to tell you to stop being an idiot with the ball. 

all qbs make dumb decisions. if you wouldnt want josh as your qb ( at a reasonable contract) youre "questionable"

[mh86]

15 minutes ago, NOLA2DC said:

Some of my responses may take on a general tone as more than one person has requested examples. As I said in another post, I have seen him make enough NFL-caliber throws to feel he can do it at the next level. I've seen throw with anticipation (release the ball before the receiver comes out his break). I've seen him throw the ball with touch over the backers right in front the safeties, and I've seen him drive the ball in a tight window with defender on his receiver's back. So yes, I am satisfied with his arm strength. 

He's the thing, though: arm strength is not the defining attribute of a great QB. Plenty of guys with canons flame out. Ryan Leaf had a stronger arm than Peyton and we all know who the better QB was.

There are clips of all these guys on every other page page but some posters keep saying "show me". Is it that some people don't watch those clips or think I haven't watched them?   

I don’t think you’ve watched anything more than the live games and some clips/highlights. I’ve brought this up to you with a post of you asking for the clips which no one responded to. I also quoted that to you and got no real response on that. So yes, personally I dont think you have. I could be wrong, but that’s my personal take on it. Add to that your reluctance to answer direct questions to your takes - I think you just like a guy on your fav team. Which I also brought up in my last post to you and you somewhat acknowledged and we moved forward.

Edited February 25 by mh86

[ThatNFLChick]

4 minutes ago, dunfer said:

all qbs make dumb decisions. if you wouldnt want josh as your qb ( at a reasonable contract) youre "questionable"

 

Nowhere did I say I wouldn't want Josh Allen. Criticism doesn't mean someone hates a player or wouldn't want them. Jesus.

[JMURedskins]

32 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Be careful bro. The Daniels clan will tell you he can make this throw right here. Opposite hash 50 yarder on a rope in stride While getting hammered on the blind side. Yep. Nothing special to see here at all. 

 

 

I’d be happy with either QB but dude hit a wide open WR in this gif.  Same thing people hate on Daniels for.  Also, who cares about hitting a cross bar, very Kyle Boller of him. 

[NOLA2DC]

5 minutes ago, mh86 said:

I don’t think you’ve watched anything more than the live games and some clips/highlights. I’ve brought this up to you with a post of you asking for the clips which no one responded to. I also quoted that to you and got no real response on that. So yes, personally I dont think you have. I could be wrong, but that’s my personal take on it. Add to that your reluctance to answer direct questions to your takes - I think you just like a guy on your fav team. Which I also brought up in my last post to you and you somewhat acknowledged and we moved forward.

What else am I supposed to watch? There are clips on every other page in this thread, so why wouldn't I watch them? Would you like me to mention the Bama game where I saw him do just about everything critics on this board said he couldn't do? Maybe we saw a different game because I saw anticipation and tight-window throws.

My reluctance has more to do with my general feeling that I won't change most people's minds. That is why I used the political analogy of polarization in this country. No matter what happens, most people know they will vote for the elephant or donkey candidate in advance. If you like Maye, I don't think I will change your mind. That's what you interpret as reluctance. I think all three of these guys have the potential to be great, but it all depends on the right situation.  

[clskinsfan]

4 minutes ago, JMURedskins said:

I’d be happy with either QB but dude hit a wide open WR in this gif.  Same thing people hate on Daniels for.  Also, who cares about hitting a cross bar, very Kyle Boller of him. 

Bro. There are literally less than 10 people on earth that can make that throw with that velocity. And Daniels isnt close to one of them. If you dont see how special that play is I dont know what to tell you. 

 

Edit: Watch the safety that gets beat. He is like "that isnt possible" Watch him.

Edited February 25 by clskinsfan

[illone]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Logic and reason. 

 

this is a silly argument…

The current draft board is not based on logic and reason. Its based on a bunch of people NOT making the actual selections, and with very little pro input, which should shift the board dramatically in the next month or so.
 

With a statement like that, it makes it look like this is your first time following the draft. 

 

until the pick is made or the trade is confirmed, nobody knows, not even the bears. 
 

That said, logic dictates that williams is a valid possibility for washington until he isnt. Unless you have some inside info or a crystal ball 🤣
 

The bears are probably looking into at least the top 15 players on THEIR draft board to ensure proper due diligence. Most nfl teams operate this way, even if the outside world has a consensus grade on a player. In the bears case its probably more since they have two picks in the top ten. 
 

so to suggest that this is a done deal is actually devoid of logic and reason..

[JMURedskins]

3 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Bro. There are literally less than 10 people on earth that can make that throw with that velocity. If you dont see how special that play is I dont know what to tell you. 

I would bet more than 10 QBs in the NFL right now could make that throw

i dont hate Maye.  I think he would be a good pick for us but just saying..

[clskinsfan]

6 minutes ago, JMURedskins said:

I would bet more than 10 QBs in the NFL right now could make that throw

I wouldnt. Name them.

 

Edit: And again. I am not some Maye or bust guy. But the dudes arm IS special. He will immediately come into the league top 6 or 8 in arm talent. But of course there is much more to being a NFL QB than arm talent. 

Edited February 25 by clskinsfan

[JMURedskins]

5 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I wouldnt. Name them.

He was standing on the 30 and it was caught on the 30 by a wide open wr.   That’s 40 yards.  Obviously a little more with it not being a straight ahead throw so add a little bit more distance.  What starting pro can’t make that throw?

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

But its deeper than that. Do you want the guy who gets you to the playoffs and loses all of the time? If I had to bet my life savings on a guy who will eventually win one it would be Alllen. He is big, powerful and can will the team to a few wins when it matters. I say this knowing the only Mahomes comp in this draft will be taken by the Bears. Maybe Mahomes gets injured one season. Who is your pick to win it all then? Mine is Allen, and its not close. IF Maye is 80% of Allen we have to take him.

It's not complicated. What can Josh Allen control? I'm not gonna argue that Allen gives me the same vibes as Brady, or Mahomes, or Montana from my era's of watching. He doesn't. He gives me more of the 1983-1993 John Elway, Jim Kelly, Dan Marino vibe, but not quite at that level. But here's the thing, 

In '19 he gave his team a 16-0 league with a couple of minutes left in the 3rd quarter and the defense imploded. 350 yards of total offense and a TD.

In '20 he gave his team a 360 yard 2 TD performance and 24 points but their D was obliterated by the Chiefs. That's his defense.

In '21 he gave his team the penultimate chance, 390 total yards, 4 TD's, and a 36-33 lead kicking off with 13 seconds left and his defense found a way to lose it AGAIN. 

In '22 he finally had a genuinely bad game, his first in the playoffs during this run, in a loss to Burrow and the Bengals, the only team other than Brady to apply a finishing move to Mahomes.

This past post season it was more of a mixed performance, I wouldn't put it at the level of his performances from '19-'21, but he still provided a 250 yard 3 TD performance in an Ice Bowl caliber game, but he did provide his team with the lead in the 4th quarter and for the what, fourth time in five years, the defense folded.

 

Lets be straight here, if Mahomes defense folds one more time, doesn't block a PAT, Mahomes loses this super bowl, but his defense held up, the same thing is true of the chiefs in the other Niner Super Bowl, the Niners had the lead late, and the defense finally firmed up. Last year why did Mahomes come within a whisker of almost losing? The Defense was annihilated by the Eagles. 

 

It's pretty simple, this is a QB's game, it's defined by QB's, but QB's still need some help. They need their defense to show up, their playmakers to not suck, their OL to block. Mahomes has lost a super bowl and two big time playoff games in his career because of largely his playmakers, his OL and his defense in some combination and when you look at Allen's time in Buffalo, that's what has cost him. Diggs is done, and so he has to depend upon inferior WR's, he's only recently acquired his first ever league average RB in Dalvin's brother, he's never had a HOF TE or WR like Mahomes, or a defense that ever protected a lead he gave them ONCE, or held off a team to help him in the 4th quarter ONCE, and that's really the defining piece here. You get the QB, and that gets you into a contender, and how well you support that QB, and some luck along the way defines the rest. I don't think Allen, mentally, is the same kind of QB Mahomes, Montana, or Brady are or were, but I can't really prove that, the truth is, it could be as simple as just having better, more mentally tough complimentary pieces and defense, it usually does come down to that. It's not like Mark Rypien or Doug Williams were Mental Magicians out there, or heroic icons that we could bow down to. They had fantastic talent around them, without it, neither would have sniffed a ring. Today, the QB has a much bigger role in winning, but it's not 100% of the role, it's always more complicated than that, as Mahomes with a truly ----ty OL illustrated in Stafford win over him a few years ago. That wasn't Stafford outdeling Mahomes, that was a compromised, dog ---- OL being manhandled and humiliated by the last great Rams defense of that era. 

[ThatNFLChick]

I think the differences in this debate is some people value a super strong arm more than others. Its not super high on my list compared to other things when it comes to picking a QB. Some people it seems have it #1 on their list given how often it is mentioned here, which is fine. Different strokes.

[clskinsfan]

5 minutes ago, JMURedskins said:

He was standing on the 30 and it was caught on the 30 by a wide open wr.   That’s 40 yards.  Obviously a little more with it not being a straight ahead throw so add a little bit more distance.  What starting pro can’t make that throw?

You might want to watch it again. He threw the ball from his 28 and it was caught on the 18. Opposite hash 18 ON A ROPE. It is a 60 yard plus throw with velocity. The throw is special. Period. 

Edited February 25 by clskinsfan

[JMURedskins]

10 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

You might want to watch it again. He threw the ball from his 28 and it was caught on the 18. Opposite hash 18 ON A ROPE. It is a 60 yard plus throw with velocity. The throw is special. Period. 

I typed 30 instead of 20 when typing and did the math off that. If it was 28 to 18, it’s still 54 yards.  Not hating on the throw just saying most starting NFL qbs make that throw