The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[method man]

1 hour ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

So this is totally wrong.

 

Chris Simms had Corral as his #1 and THAT is whose evaluation skills were being debated (btw Simms hasn't even put out his list for this year so we have no idea who he likes yet). Riddick didn't even grade that Howell/Willis/Pickett draft class. 

 

 

Would anyone be willing to trade down from 2 to 13 if the Raiders made us an absurd offer?

 

 

 

This is a departure from what I've said in the past but this is something they could explore. The Quinn hire showed they don't really care what fans think.

 

I would want 3 1sts, their 2nd this year and the underrated franchise LT Kolton Miller (which may not be possible if they are gung ho on a QB). I would also consider 2 1sts + Crosby. I would also want Peters, Quinn and KK to have a QB they really like outside of the top 3 guys. Maybe that is someone like Pratt.

[FootballZombie]

Raiders are S.O.L.

 

Only way they move up to top 3 is if they have a per-existing deal worked out w/ the Pats to trade up in case the guy who falls to them is one of the 3 that they don't like.

[illone]

24 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Raiders are S.O.L.

 

Only way they move up to top 3 is if they have a per-existing deal worked out w/ the Pats to trade up in case the guy who falls to them is one of the 3 that they don't like.

 

Only way Id move down that far is if they offered the "Mike Ditka" package. 

 

[FrFan]

11 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

There was no narrative in 2018, that was what made it such a weird draft. Nobody was even sure who Cleveland would draft at the 1.01 until the night before. That's how much disagreement there was. 

 

Baker: the upside was the analytics #'s. The fear was some sort of undersized, Manziel guy again, but the accuracy was absurd.

 

Rosen: Prototype footwork, great #'s, great superficial stuff SIP makes fun of me for buying into lol, fear was his mental make up sucked, and he had some real, tangible mechanics issues. Production at UCLA was meh.

 

Allen: Unbelievable arm and athlete, fear was not remotely accurate enough to make it as a pro.

 

Darnold: Breakout at a very young age, great arm, good production, fear was, why did he play like --- his finale year? a lot of turnovers too, and sacks.

 

Jackson: Elite runner and athlete, great arm, fear was: raw as a thrower, will take time, is he more athlete than QB?

 

Nobody could agree on these guys because they all had concerns. Baker was too small and had to leave his school, was he a legit enough physical athlete/thrower, Rosen had a lot of holes, Allen had a giant hole that made me ignore him entirely, Darnold had great assets but real concerns, Lamar had a lot of work to do to become adequate or better as a passer at all levels.

 

Hitting on that is nice, but honestly, Josh Allen #1 makes me think he was an idiot. Yes he hit, but come on. You don't care about his accuracy? The NFL totally ignores QB's at this point with accuracy issues that extensive. He's an outlier at one of the most, maybe THE MOST important trait: throwing the ball into tight windows accurately, consistently. He didn't do that in college, ever. So putting him #1 makes me think he was an idiot. If you're willing to go hero ball, and take Allen's traits, and say, "---- it" and let fly? I can see that, especially in the mid first or later, but putting him as the guy that should be taken at 1.01 just strikes me as idiocy. His '22 and '21 rankings are really, really bad which underline that.

 

In fairness to the guy, I'm not hating here, I just think there's a creedo that's far more important than that he nailed a class here or there, and that's whether or not you have good process, and follow best practices. Anyone can blindly hit, here or there, from time to time, but if you have really flawed process, over the long term, you will fail. You just will because over time, your approach sucks. 

 

I don't know if he's great or bad or inbetween, but I tend to think if he was actually good at this, consistently, he would be employed yesterday and at a far nicer sum than by whomever's paying him right now. 

I agree with you there. It definitely appears that what talent Corral has, or doesn't, will never be known because what went on between his ears trumped it, in terms of mental health/mental make up whatever it might be. There's no evidence I've found to suggest he would've hit for sure or not, but he was definitely one of the very best QB's of a bad class, maybe THE BEST. But we'll never know for sure what he could have been now. 

Nah, he got hurt, and then the mental make up issue washed him out. Matt Corrall will always be a question mark. I don't think it's fair to regard him as a bust in the same fashion say, we'd regard Brandon Weeden as a bust. 

I implied he didn't live up to expectations with the Panthers and despite injuries they decided to let him go. I'm not calling him a bust either now because he's young and has a second chance. What I don't like is Bedard's tweet claiming he is great at selecting QBs in the draft and didn't mention Corral.

While I'm sure McAdoo  is a good talent evaluator, when I read Bedard it's like he is presenting him like a hit and don't miss in terms of QB evaluation.

No one has the midas touch, it is uttermost difficult to draft a QB (in late 1st or day 2) and making him a starter and moreso a franchise QB, let alone repeating the process.

Edited February 7 by FrFan

[redskinss]

10 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

The major difference is the quality of the prospect. Everyone agrees Caleb is a lightyears better prospect than Young was. It is universal

I agree but that won't change the outcome of the possible scenario I laid out just the likelihood of our success. 

My comment was based on the rumors of the bears getting a "haul" so to speak and that's probably just wishful thinking from bears fans.

If all we gave up was a 2 I'd be ok with it but more than that and I'll be extremely frustrated. 

[ST_DaGoat21]

Here is a good discussion on Maye vs Daniels vs Williams.  
 

 

[triggered]

I’ve read that Howell is very familiar with the Air Raid System, that being said I wouldn’t be opposed to trading down and get O tackle (thinking Fashanu and Fuaga) bookends, LB’s and TE’s. Solidify the trenches on both sides of the ball.

[PlayAction]

6 hours ago, illone said:

 

Only way Id move down that far is if they offered the "Mike Ditka" package. 

 

 

#13 isn't a bad spot.  Peters would have the flexibility to move back up to get a player that they want.  But, I'd want the Raiders second round pick this year and 2025 first round pick + additional compensation.  It's the extra that would be the tricky negotiation.  Depends on Peters draft board. Obviously, Peters would have to have a different view on the current top 3 QBs value to this franchise

[clskinsfan]

9 hours ago, dunfer said:

chase young needs to get motivated

Exactly. The comparison between Caleb and Young is laughable. Young took plays off in college. Lots of them. And we debated about it a ton in the draft thread that year. I dont think Caleb has ever taken a play off or loafed in a game once in his life. By all accounts the guy works his ass off. 

[FlyBigBeard]

31 minutes ago, PlayAction said:

 

#13 isn't a bad spot.  Peters would have the flexibility to move back up to get a player that they want.  But, I'd want the Raiders second round pick this year and 2025 first round pick + additional compensation.  It's the extra that would be the tricky negotiation.  Depends on Peters draft board. Obviously, Peters would have to have a different view on the current top 3 QBs value to this franchise

What's it? Would take way more then that. A 2nd a 2025 1st and some other picks? Need multiple second round and multiple first round picks plus (other picks) 13th would knock you out of any sure pro bowl talent. And just get you a hopefully sure starter. 

[Warhead36]

If Im moving from 2 to past 10 I want a minimum 1st, 2nd and 4th this year, 1st and 3rd next year, and 1st the year after. MINIMUM. Just to answer the phone

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, triggered said:

I’ve read that Howell is very familiar with the Air Raid System, that being said I wouldn’t be opposed to trading down and get O tackle (thinking Fashanu and Fuaga) bookends, LB’s and TE’s. Solidify the trenches on both sides of the ball.

 

Question for those who want to trade down from #2: How many teams have we seen achieve sustained success (i.e., multiple trips to the SB) over the last 20 years without a top 10 QB?  We've seen plenty of teams with stacked rosters and subpar QBs achieve success in one-off years, but I want sustained success.  Drafting a QB in the top 2 gives us the best chance for that.

[triggered]

26 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Question for those who want to trade down from #2: How many teams have we seen achieve sustained success (i.e., multiple trips to the SB) over the last 20 years without a top 10 QB?  We've seen plenty of teams with stacked rosters and subpar QBs achieve success in one-off years, but I want sustained success.  Drafting a QB in the top 2 gives us the best chance for that.

Russell Wilson. a year before he came the Seahawks were already solid in the trenches then he got drafted and made two successive trips to the SB but lost the second time.

Edited February 7 by triggered

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, triggered said:

Russell Wilson. a year before he came the Seahawks were already solid in the trenches and made two successive trips to the SB but lost the second time.

 

And Russell Wilson was a top 10 QB.  The Seahawks were extremely lucky finding a top 10 QB in the 3rd round.  I would hope Peters isn't gambling everything on us having the same sort of luck.

[mac8887]

2 hours ago, triggered said:

I’ve read that Howell is very familiar with the Air Raid System, that being said I wouldn’t be opposed to trading down and get O tackle (thinking Fashanu and Fuaga) bookends, LB’s and TE’s. Solidify the trenches on both sides of the ball.

But who would play qb? Howell? I doubt the fo and coach hitch themselves to the last regimes late round qb who failed so bad that the regime who put their trust in him got fired. 

[Est.1974]

11 hours ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Would anyone be willing to trade down from 2 to 13 if the Raiders made us an absurd offer

I’m personally not in the ‘we must stay at #2 and take the consolidation prize’ group.

 

Trade up to #1 for Williams.

If we don’t fancy that, or are unable to do so, trading back for a **** load of picks seems like a very viable option to me.

[Warhead36]

Of the 8 teams playing in the Divisional round, 5 of them had QBs that were acquired from trading UP in the draft.

 

When you have a shot at someone you love, you go up and get him.

 

Quality > quantity 

[triggered]

1 minute ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

And Russell Wilson was a top 10 QB.  The Seahawks were extremely lucky finding a top 10 QB in the 3rd round.  I would hope Peters isn't gambling everything on us having the same sort of luck.

And no one knew during that time and with the help of the O-line not only did Wilson thrived but Lynch also.

[mac8887]

51 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

If Im moving from 2 to past 10 I want a minimum 1st, 2nd and 4th this year, 1st and 3rd next year, and 1st the year after. MINIMUM. Just to answer the phone

I would be ok with this idea if we could get fields for a second or third. I could possibly be persuaded with russel Wilson if the haul was at least 3 firsts and a second this year+ a second or third the next year. 

 

I think fields would do well in an air raid system.

 

My #1 choice would be find a way to get caleb williams, and then I'm torn between jayden or fields, especially if we could get fields fo our 3rd.

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, mac8887 said:

I would be ok with this idea if we could get fields for a second or third. I could possibly be persuaded with russel Wilson if the haul was at least 3 firsts and a second this year+ a second or third the next year. 

 

I think fields would do well in an air raid system.

 

My #1 choice would be find a way to get caleb williams, and then I'm torn between jayden or fields, especially if we could get fields fo our 3rd.

Hard pass on both those. If Im trading down its under the assumption that Im running it back with Howell and setting myself up with ammunition in future years.

 

But Id still rather stay at 2. Its just not likely were gonna have a shot at a potential superstar QB again anytime soon barring some crazy good fortune.

[triggered]

5 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

But who would play qb? Howell? I doubt the fo and coach hitch themselves to the last regimes late round qb who failed so bad that the regime who put their trust in him got fired. 

And who would protect the newly acquired QB? Just look at Mr. Irrelevant with again a great O-line.

3 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I would be ok with this idea if we could get fields for a second or third. I could possibly be persuaded with russel Wilson if the haul was at least 3 firsts and a second this year+ a second or third the next year. 

 

I think fields would do well in an air raid system.

 

My #1 choice would be find a way to get caleb williams, and then I'm torn between jayden or fields, especially if we could get fields fo our 3rd.

Drake Maye is also familiar with the system.

[clskinsfan]

10 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

And Russell Wilson was a top 10 QB.  The Seahawks were extremely lucky finding a top 10 QB in the 3rd round.  I would hope Peters isn't gambling everything on us having the same sort of luck.

Plus he is hot garbage now. Russ was good. But sustained success is not what I would use to describe his career. They got similar results with Geno for goodness sake. 

Edited February 7 by clskinsfan

[ntotoro]

If the pick was lower half of the top-10 or even worse, I'd say roll with Sam and draft someone later.

 

A #2 pick... you can't pass up QB at that spot. The team has a ton of picks and a ton of cap. They can afford some FA's in other spots and this "recalibration" will take more than one season, anyway. I don't want to see this team pick this high again for a long, long time.

Edited February 7 by ntotoro

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, triggered said:

And no one knew during that time and with the help of the O-line not only did Wilson thrived but Lynch also.

 

This is revisionist history.  Seattle's OL was terrible in the early-mid 2010s.  The widely accepted assumption was that they didn't care about investing in the OL because Wilson's legs would make up for it.

 

 

Quote

 

Seattle Seahawks Won't Thrive Without Improved Offensive Line

The first three games of the 2013 season have been an absolute nightmare for the Seattle Seahawks' offensive line. On 102 pass plays, they’ve allowed seven quarterback sacks, seven quarterback hits and 23 quarterback hurries. Which, in turn, means second-year quarterback Russell Wilson is being hurried once every 2.8 snaps.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1785280-seattle-seahawks-wont-thrive-without-improved-offensive-line-play

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Seahawks, and Russell Wilson, may finally pay the price for ignoring offensive line

For the past four years, Seahawks general manager John Schneider has been playing with fire. Uuntil now though he’s managed not to get burned.

 

It’s difficult to question the strategy up until this point with one Super Bowl ring and another Super Bowl appearance over that span, but without the luxury of Marshawn Lynch and with Wilson already suffering an ankle injury in Week 1, it’s worth questioning whether or not Schneider’s plan will be sustainable in the future. Or the present.

 

From 2013-15 Russell Wilson was knocked down or sacked on 359 of his 1,892 dropbacks, the second highest total in the NFL over those years behind only Ryan Tannehill (372). When looked at as a percentage of dropbacks though, Wilson’s 19 percent easily leads the league. That’s quite the figure, especially considering quarterbacks like Andy Dalton (8.8 percent) and Peyton Manning (9.4 percent) were half as likely to get hit as Wilson, yet both missed considerably more playing time due to injury over those years. While it’s true that Wilson brings some of that upon himself, it’s also true that the Seahawks’ offensive line has been one of the worst in the league over that span.

 

That’s what happens though when an entire unit is for the most part ignored. From 2012-15, here are the Seahawks’ draft picks along the offensive line:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2016/09/15/seahawks-and-russell-wilson-could-finally-pay-the-price-for-ignoring-offensive-line/

 

 

[clskinsfan]

4 minutes ago, triggered said:

And who would protect the newly acquired QB? Just look at Mr. Irrelevant with again a great O-line.

We have 90 million in cap space and 2 picks in rounds 2 and three. There is zero shot the OL you saw last year will be starting week one next year.