The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[PolarExpress]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:55 AM, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

 

 

This is one reason I dislike Ron.  He isn’t loyal, talks in circles, and says things he doesn’t mean.  I don’t respect him and I can’t wait until he’s gone.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

Ron’s been a head coach for 13 years. You’d think he’d have picked up how to handle a press conference by osmosis in that time.

There are many things you would think and you’d be wrong. 

[MartinC]

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

There are many things you would think and you’d be wrong. 

You sound like my wife.

[Number 44]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

You sound like my wife.

If a husband is alone in the woods with no one around and he says something no one can hear, is he wrong?

[Gurgeh]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:02 PM, mac8887 said:

I never really saw Heinike as an option. But man was he fun to watch that playoff game. My main reason for making an account was because I was sure howell was the guy and annointed him our franchise qb after the first eagles game, and it really was a very slow decline in performance with him with some games better than others up until a 4 weeks ago when the bottom dropped out in my opinion. (Picture market consolidation slightly to the downside and then a major sell off) I was just surprised why not many either noticed the slow decline in performance or refused to acknowledge it. I wanted to get on here and talk to people about it.

 

I noticed a few weeks ago that Sam was showing the signs of a young QB who's taken too many hits and was trying too hard to make something happen, and it's a real shame for him because I think he's a better QB than we've seen these last few games. And the blame isn't on him; it looks more likely now that he isn't the answer at QB, but he was essentially hung out to dry by an OL that was assembled as an afterthought ("assembled" in the way our cat assembles the beads holding our blinds together), playcalling that seemed designed to get Sam injured, and coaching that has failed to develop the players that we have.

 

While I hope we get an answer at QB next year, that is always going to be a roll of the dice. I don't think the odds are as good as 50-50 on first round QBs even in the top 10 picks. But what isn't in the lap of the gods is creating a good coaching staff and scouting team, so that we don't end up in this dysfunctional mess again. Who the new owner hires is going to be more important than who we draft, because with the wrong people in place we'll just destroy another prospect.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, PolarExpress said:

This is one reason I dislike Ron.  He isn’t loyal, talks in circles, and says things he doesn’t mean.  I don’t respect him and I can’t wait until he’s gone.

 

Nick Sundberg blasted Ron on air the other day about his issue was him wasn't that he was released but that he lied about it and then it happened.  Ioannidis had a similar story.  Sundverg scoffed about the "culture" being better under him.

[Skinsinparadise]

2024 NFL quarterback market: 13 teams that could add starters

• 
  Bill Barnwell, ESPN Staff Writer

Cardinals

 

 

Contract for 2024: Here's where this gets interesting. Per ESPN's Football Power Index (FPI), the Cards have a 30.6% chance of landing one of the top two picks in April's draft. Doing so would put them in position to pick either Drake Maye (North Carolina) or Caleb Williams (USC). They have a 88.7% chance of finishing with a top-five selection. That could mean a critical helper for Murray such as wideout Marvin Harrison Jr. (Ohio State) -- or a potential Murray replacement in Heisman Trophy winner Jayden Daniels (LSU).

The five years on Murray's $230.5 million extension don't start until next season, although he already has made just under $33 million in new money from that pact. A team trading for him would be on the hook for $109.3 million over three seasons or $124.3 million over four, all of which would be practically guaranteed by his presence on the roster. Those aren't exorbitant salaries in a league in which the going rate for top quarterbacks is north of $50 million, but he has been closer to league-average.

Assuming any potential deal lands before June 1, the Cardinals would owe a record $46.2 million of dead money for Murray's contract on their 2024 cap. With $56 million in cap room, though, they would be able to absorb the hit and be in much better shape for 2025 and beyond. The reduced salary in the years to follow would allow general manager Monti Ossenfort to build more expansively around a passer such as Daniels, Maye or Williams on a rookie deal.

There's also no guarantee the guy the Cardinals draft would be better than Murray. Ossenfort could hold onto his current starter and either grab a key player at another position or trade that top-five pick for multiple first-rounders if a quarterback-needy team wants to move up. We just saw him drop down as part of the Will Anderson Jr. deal last April, yielding picks from the Texans (including an extra first-rounder in 2024). Obviously, a lot depends on what happens over the next few weeks and how this new regime feels about the quarterback they inherited from the prior one.

 

Falcons

 

Most likely QB they'll pursue: Given that the defense has been playing well and Fontenot has been so aggressive in using his first-round picks to add offensive playmakers, I would expect the Falcons to pursue a quarterback in the first round of the draft. FPI projects Atlanta to land the 11th pick, which would put it in position for someone from the second or third tier of quarterback prospects, such as Daniels, J.J. McCarthy (Michigan) or Shedeur Sanders (Colorado), if they enter the draft. Bringing in Tannehill as a bridge option and mentor wouldn't hurt.

 

Bears

 

Most likely QB they'll pursue: Maye or Williams. Trading Fields would still expect to land the Bears a top-40 pick to replace the one they sent the Commanders for Montez Sweat. If Fields was a no-doubt franchise quarterback, this would be a tough choice, but the ability to add a better prospect at a cheaper cost is an opportunity the Bears can't afford to miss.

 

 

Washington Commanders

Current starter: Sam Howell

What happened in Week 15: Ron Rivera cracked. After spending all season committing to Howell as the starter, the Commanders coach finally benched the second-year quarterback after an interception during Sunday's loss to the Rams, turning things over to overqualified backup Jacoby Brissett. Brissett immediately led two scoring drives, going 8-of-10 for 124 yards and sparking the first breakout game all season from star wideout Terry McLaurin.

Immediately after the game, Rivera said that Howell was pulled from the game to "protect" him, and that Howell would be back in the lineup against the Jets on Sunday. Oh well.

How has it gone in 2023? It has been interesting. New offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy has leaned into the pass, so Howell has thrown a league-high 535 pass attempts. He also leads the NFL with 15 interceptions and 59 sacks, though his sack rate has thankfully come down as the season has gone along. After being sacked on 13.5% of his dropbacks through the first seven games of the season, he has seen his sack rate improve to 6.4% over the ensuing seven starts.

There are unquestionably things to like about Howell. He's tough and mobile. He has a legitimate NFL-caliber arm, and when he gets a chance to step into a throw, Howell can deliver some really impressive passes. If you put together a two-minute highlight reel of the best Howell plays from 2023, he looks like an above-average NFL quarterback.

Of course, there's more to the game than a highlight reel, and Howell's inconsistencies and inexperience show. Despite the big arm, he's only averaging 6.7 yards per attempt. He's also 19-of-60 on deep passes traveling 20 or more yards downfield, and his 64.6 QBR on those throws ranks 26th. Owing to Washington's defense and the heavy pass rate, nobody has more passing yards in garbage time (with a sub-5% win expectancy) than Howell.

 

 

Contract for 2024: Howell will be in Year 3 of his rookie deal. Even if he's pushed into the backup role, the 23-year-old will still be a relative bargain, as he'll make $985,000. There's a Gardner Minshew career path in the future for Howell, even if he's not the long-term starter in Washington. Brissett will be a free agent, and after more than half the league needed to turn to a backup at one point or another this season, the former Browns starter should attract more interest than he did in March.

Other internal candidates: The practice squad option here is Jake Fromm, who was last seen starting for the Joe Judge Giants in 2021.

Ties to any likely free agents: Just about everybody around the NFL expects Rivera to be let go by the team's new ownership group at the end of the season, so we won't know who holds ties to the Commanders until we actually see who ends up making decisions.

Most likely QB they'll pursue: It depends on which path the Commanders choose to take. It looks like Josh Harris and the new ownership group are embracing a much-needed rebuild, which would probably require the Commanders to be patient as they build infrastructure around a potential quarterback of the future. With Washington projected to land the fourth pick in the draft at the moment per ESPN's FPI, it could try to draft Daniels or another of the quarterbacks outside the top two. Trading the pick for much-needed draft capital, giving Howell another season and expecting to bottom out in 2025 might also be a longer-term strategy.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/39150821/2024-nfl-quarterback-market-teams-starters-offseason-free-agent-trade-draft

[DWinzit]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Nick Sundberg blasted Ron on air the other day about his issue was him wasn't that he was released but that he lied about it and then it happened.  Ioannidis had a similar story.  Sundverg scoffed about the "culture" being better under him.

Wow, I am surprised we didn't hear more of these stories. 

[Skinsinparadise]

40 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Wow, I am surprised we didn't hear more of these stories. 

 

 

[DWinzit]

Well that article reinforces that Tress Way is awesome!

I only recall Sunberg as being steady as a LS. Drafting Cheese and replacing Sunberg should be a big regret of Rivera.

I imagine there are more of these type of stories out there and maybe come out after Rivera is canned

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Well that article reinforces that Tress Way is awesome!

I only recall Sunberg as being steady as a LS. Drafting Cheese and replacing Sunberg should be a big regret of Rivera.

I imagine there are more of these type of stories out there and maybe come out after Rivera is canned

 

I don't think Ron is a bad guy.  I still think he's a good person.  But...

 

A. Saying one thing but doing something else is a hallmark of his regime

B.  Constant spin from him.  What he says one week can be totally different the next week

C.  The culture change is in the building -- nicer people work there now.  But as for the team, culture didn't improve.  The culture is of losing and excuses

[DWinzit]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't think Ron is a bad guy.  I still think he's a good person.  But...

 

A. Saying one thing but doing something else is a hallmark of his regime

B.  Constant spin from him.  What he says one week can be totally different the next week

C.  The culture change is in the building -- nicer people work there now.  But as for the team, culture didn't improve.  The culture is of losing and excuses

Reality is the culture is just beginning to change now with some new Josh hires and JDR firing.

The big culture change will really begin once Ron is relieved of duties and a GM is hired.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Reality is the culture is just beginning to change now with some new Josh hires and JDR firing.

The big culture change will really begin once Ron is relieved of duties and a GM is hired.

 

If I had to say what's the saddest aspect of Ron's regime its that he if anything he fostered the team's losing culture.

 

Rivera's odd combination of arrogance, delusion, scapegoating, excusing making and celebrating mediocrity fit the Bruce Allen era to a tee.  Ron blended in perfectly to it.

 

Ron and Bruce would be besties if Bruce was a better person IMO.  Ron is a nicer and classier guy than Bruce.  But otherwise they seemed to see football the same way.   It's eerie to me how much they had in common.  

 

We need a major culture change from Ron.  Not only do I agree with especially @Conn's point that Ron didn't change the culture.  I'd add he doubled down on the bad culture "on the field".  Ron fostered it.  And in that sense his era comes off a bit depressing to me. 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If I had to say what's the saddest aspect of Ron's regime its that he if anything fostered the team's losing culture.

 

Rivera's odd combination of arrogance, delusion, scapegoating, excusing making and celebrating mediocrity fit the Bruce Allen era to a tee.  Ron blended in perfectly to it.

 

Ron and Bruce would be besties if Bruce was a better person IMO.  Ron is a nicer and classier guy than Bruce.  But otherwise they seemed to see football the same way.   It's eerie to me how much they had in common.  

 

This nails it. Enough of just hearing he is a good guy and good for the team to get them through a bad time....he kept the preexisting culture alive and well!

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

This nails it. Enough of just hearing he is a good guy and good for the team to get them through a bad time....he kept the preexisting culture alive and well!

 

Big time.  When he saying he changed the culture here, it comes off comical to me.

 

If Ron wanted to point to his legacy here.  The nicest thing I'll say is he's a good person, beloved by the national media so when all the Dan stuff got crazy it was good that we had some good will in spite of it because Ron is a nice person.  And it was admirable to see him battle cancer while working.

 

But purely as a HC and FO guy, he emboded IMO the losing ways of the Dan era.  It seemed to fit now with the power of hindsight him praising Dan right till the end.   The acting like you arrived because you went 7-9 or 8-8 and coasting off of that was odd bravado and is so Bruce.  The FA crops were so Bruce.  Lack of urgency so Bruce.  The excuse making and scapegoating also so Bruce.  Among other things.  In my mind, we got the Bruce Allen round 2 -- just run by nicer people, that's all.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

Rivera didn't change the culture here.  He changed the perception of the culture.  Harris buying the team changed the culture.  

[DWinzit]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Big time.  When he saying he changed the culture here, it comes off comical to me.

 

If Ron wanted to point to his legacy here.  The nicest thing I'll say is he's a good person, beloved by the national media so when all the Dan stuff got crazy it was good that we had some good will in spite of it because Ron is a nice person.  And it was admirable to see him battle cancer while working.

 

But purely as a HC and FO guy, he emboded IMO the losing ways of the Dan era.  It seemed to fit now with the power of hindsight him praising Dan right till the end.   The acting like you arrived because you went 7-9 or 8-8 and coasting off of that was odd bravado and is so Bruce.  The FA crops were so Bruce.  Lack of urgency so Bruce.  The excuse making and scapegoating also so Bruce.  Among other things.  In my mind, we got the Bruce Allen round 2 -- just run by nicer people, that's all.  

The number of arse clowns running this organization over the past 25 years is ridiculous. What is wrong with all of us fans for sticking with them? we all have  @BatteredFanSyndrome 

[skinsmania123]

Listening to Keim interview former GM Rick Spielman regarding his thoughts on the process the team should take in evaluating Howell.  Said ownership should interview the current staff regarding Howell and ask them straight up if he has what it takes to be a franchise QB. Then getting the new GM and coaches to evaluate him, and of course he hedged a bit when he said "new staff" - But overall, his sentiment is they need to get as much information as possible on Howell, based on watching film, interviewing Howell to understand his decision-making process in game time situations even going through film with him and also determining if he is a leader. He even mentioned interviewing other players regarding Howell. 

 

But Spielman, while he thinks Howell is talented, and does not think they should just pull the plug on him, points out that Howell is not consistent, and makes some poor decisions. 

 

He also pointed out that if they have a shot at a Caleb Williams or Maye, that a HC and GM may not want to pass on them. But that making final decisions on a franchise, particularly when it comes to a QB, the HC, GM and the owner have to have the same philosophy - including the same philosophy on how to create a winning culture. And that for me was a very strong point. We all know what the Snyder era did to destroy any sort of cohesion that should exist there. 

 

One thing that Spielman did point out is if they decided to fortify their roster and stay with Howell another year, that if they could get a player like Marvin Harrison Jr., that he would immediately improve the QB's play, and then he said you add a OT and strengthen the O-line, pointing out that in his opinion it takes 3 years to adequately determine what you have in a QB.  

 

I just thought made some good points on how the evaluation process should take place on an NFL team. 

 

[kingdaddy]

Hearing all of the new stories and evidence coming out it just blows my mind that we haven't fired RR already.

The stat that Howell leads the league in passing attempts is an indictment of how poorly this staff has groomed and protected Sam. We should be in the top 10 in rushing attempts, not passing. Think about it, with one of the worst offensive lines in the league we lead the league in passing attempts with a 1ST year starter?? Inexcusable. I truly believe this could be the week Sam goes down with an injury, I just hope it's not something that requires surgery or something long term.

[DWinzit]

28 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

Listening to Keim interview former GM Rick Spielman regarding his thoughts on the process the team should take in evaluating Howell.  Said ownership should interview the current staff regarding Howell and ask them straight up if he has what it takes to be a franchise QB. Then getting the new GM and coaches to evaluate him, and of course he hedged a bit when he said "new staff" - But overall, his sentiment is they need to get as much information as possible on Howell, based on watching film, interviewing Howell to understand his decision-making process in game time situations even going through film with him and also determining if he is a leader. He even mentioned interviewing other players regarding Howell. 

 

But Spielman, while he thinks Howell is talented, and does not think they should just pull the plug on him, points out that Howell is not consistent, and makes some poor decisions. 

 

He also pointed out that if they have a shot at a Caleb Williams or Maye, that a HC and GM may not want to pass on them. But that making final decisions on a franchise, particularly when it comes to a QB, the HC, GM and the owner have to have the same philosophy - including the same philosophy on how to create a winning culture. And that for me was a very strong point. We all know what the Snyder era did to destroy any sort of cohesion that should exist there. 

 

One thing that Spielman did point out is if they decided to fortify their roster and stay with Howell another year, that if they could get a player like Marvin Harrison Jr., that he would immediately improve the QB's play, and then he said you add a OT and strengthen the O-line, pointing out that in his opinion it takes 3 years to adequately determine what you have in a QB.  

 

I just thought made some good points on how the evaluation process should take place on an NFL team. 

 

Regarding Howells play and evaluation, he did speak about the negative turn he seemed to take over the past month with inconsistencies and decision making concerns. Thought they should dive into what might have been behind that as well as watching how he finishes up the season. He is resilient, with lots of good attributes and looked very promising early wondering whether he was a one year wonder or the real deal. They would need to vet that out as best they could through the process you hit on in your post.

[skinsmania123]

13 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Regarding Howells play and evaluation, he did speak about the negative turn he seemed to take over the past month with inconsistencies and decision making concerns. Thought they should dive into what might have been behind that as well as watching how he finishes up the season. He is resilient, with lots of good attributes and looked very promising early wondering whether he was a one year wonder or the real deal. They would need to vet that out as best they could through the process you hit on in your post.

What is interesting to me, is hearing Sam Howell say after the game other day, "if we knew what the problem was we would fix it." It is almost as though his poor play and decision-making is baffling to him as well.  I still think he can play in the league, and I hope, whether here or somewhere else he is able to sort if out with his coach.  With such a cheap contract though, I would be surprised if they traded him.  He is such a professional, he would never cause any disruption or negativity if they went with another QB. I could care about fans trying to create a QB controversy. That is where a good HC comes in and just shuts that down during press conferences. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinsmania123 said:

Listening to Keim interview former GM Rick Spielman regarding his thoughts on the process the team should take in evaluating Howell.  Said ownership should interview the current staff regarding Howell and ask them straight up if he has what it takes to be a franchise QB. Then getting the new GM and coaches to evaluate him, and of course he hedged a bit when he said "new staff" - But overall, his sentiment is they need to get as much information as possible on Howell, based on watching film, interviewing Howell to understand his decision-making process in game time situations even going through film with him and also determining if he is a leader. He even mentioned interviewing other players regarding Howell. 

 

But Spielman, while he thinks Howell is talented, and does not think they should just pull the plug on him, points out that Howell is not consistent, and makes some poor decisions. 

 

He also pointed out that if they have a shot at a Caleb Williams or Maye, that a HC and GM may not want to pass on them. But that making final decisions on a franchise, particularly when it comes to a QB, the HC, GM and the owner have to have the same philosophy - including the same philosophy on how to create a winning culture. And that for me was a very strong point. We all know what the Snyder era did to destroy any sort of cohesion that should exist there. 

 

One thing that Spielman did point out is if they decided to fortify their roster and stay with Howell another year, that if they could get a player like Marvin Harrison Jr., that he would immediately improve the QB's play, and then he said you add a OT and strengthen the O-line, pointing out that in his opinion it takes 3 years to adequately determine what you have in a QB.  

 

I just thought made some good points on how the evaluation process should take place on an NFL team. 

 

 

I listened to it during my jog today.  It was a good listen but it a bit shorter than some of Keim's interviews.

 

He said if you think Caleb or Maye are the type of QBs that can take you to the SB you grab them no matter what regardless of the take on Sam.  That felt a bit telling to me considering it basically says Sam isn't that caliber of a QB.

 

Spielman doesn't seem sold on our weapons and as you said is big time sold on Harrison Jr.

 

One thing he had in common with Kiper's podcast that I listened to right after Keim's postcast is how game breaker receivers especially these days can change an offense.

 

In Kiper's podcast with Field Yates, they felt Caleb is cemented as the #1 QB.  But Drake Maye versus Daniels is a serious debate and they wouldn't be shocked if Daniels goes #2.  They actually talked about teams needing a QB, they mentioned this team in the mix and it would be on the table if it were them.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

What is interesting to me, is hearing Sam Howell say after the game other day, "if we knew what the problem was we would fix it." It is almost as though his poor play and decision-making is baffling to him as well.  I still think he can play in the league, and I hope, whether here or somewhere else he is able to sort if out with his coach.  With such a cheap contract though, I would be surprised if they traded him.  He is such a professional, he would never cause any disruption or negativity if they went with another QB. I could care about fans trying to create a QB controversy. That is where a good HC comes in and just shuts that down during press conferences. 

 

Yeah I know its a hot button issue here with some.  But Howell is a good dude.  He's a professional. I would keep Howell and let him compete with a young QB.  He can handle it.

I am not of the mindset that QBs are made by franchises.  I think its a factor but its not the overriding factor.  There is a reason why Tom Brady is hired by Fortune 500 companies.  It's because his leadership skills, drive and make up is special.  It's not because the Patriots made him that way.  I've read multiple books about the Pats and Brady's drive and how he helped infuse that culture was remarkable.   Some dudes have that Rocky like drive and push to be great and some don't.    Mac Jones, Zappe aren't thriving with the Pats culture.

 

Arians talks about that plenty in his book about QBs which is you need emormous drive to be successful.  He likens it to a golfer perfecting a golf swing.  To master QB mechanics its a constant process.  Also to prepare for the upcoming opponent like mad because opposing defensive coordinators are adept at exposing a QB's-offenses flaws.    Andrew Luck for example talked about the effort alone to master protections took tremendous effort.

 

If the QB is that fragile mentally that they can't handle competition, they will be exposed eventually.   See RG3, Wentz among others.  Hurts as QB2 thought it was his job to lose from the jump.  Brady felt that way as QB3.  If you are mentally strong and have that uber drive you don't fall apart based on competition.

 

Kiper actually talked about this in the last podcast some.  As he goes all ahtletes have some competitive drive in them but there are levels of it and the levels are key.  Are you a 5 or are you a 10?  And everything being equal you want a 10 because they tend to be more successful.  He ironically made that point specfic to Daniels saying he's heard he's a 10.

 

The vision-processing is something that is impossible to gauge fully from any young Qb until you see the bullets flying.  I don't think its crazy to draft a QB and keep Howell.  It's security in case you are wrong about either one.  Shanny among others said you can tell really quickly if a Qb has "it" once you got him in camp.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't think Ron is a bad guy.  I still think he's a good person.  But...

 

A. Saying one thing but doing something else is a hallmark of his regime

I think point A. likely lands him somewhere between bad and good. 

[skinsmania123]

29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I listened to it during my jog today.  It was a good listen but it a bit shorter than some of Keim's interviews.

 

He said if you think Caleb or Maye are the type of QBs that can take you to the SB you grab them no matter what regardless of the take on Sam.  That felt a bit telling to me considering it basically says Sam isn't that caliber of a QB.

 

Spielman doesn't seem sold on our weapons and as you said is big time sold on Harrison Jr.

 

One thing he had in common with Kiper's podcast that I listened to right after Keim's postcast is how game breaker receivers especially these days can change an offense.

 

In Kiper's podcast with Field Yates, they felt Caleb is cemented as the #1 QB.  But Drake Maye versus Daniels is a serious debate and they wouldn't be shocked if Daniels goes #2.  They actually talked about teams needing a QB, they mentioned this team in the mix and it would be on the table if it were them.

Listening it sounded like he was striking off a # options, and that if the combo of HC, GM and owner agreed, they could go QB.  Yeah, I agree with the part when he said, if you think Caleb or Maye are the type of QB's that can get you to a SB you go with them.  I think the key is consensus. 

 

Yeah I got the sense that he likes Terry a lot but does not see him as a true #1 and that Harrison Jr. fits the bill, and then he seemed to add in the OT part, so it seemed that it was an option.