The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FLSkinz83]

I was thinking Derek Carr was going to be an option, but apparently JDR was critical of him in cold weather games

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I can see that...I was thinking of guys like Jimmy G. and Tannehill.   Jones and guys like Mayfield are average with upside, so I'd rather target those types.  

 

I thought about including Tannehill, he's been better than average typically but this season average.

 

Mayfield I go back and forth on but he could be.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Per PFF, this Heinicke/Wentz scenario is going to play out until Wednesday.  To me it’s a foregone conclusion that it has to be Wentz and this is all just buying time to have the conversations.

 

I can’t wait for the likely win and in scenario where Dallas blasts us and the Hive spends the next 9 months explaining to us how Heinicke would have won that game.  🤣

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

I was thinking Derek Carr was going to be an option, but apparently JDR was critical of him in cold weather games

 

I trust Keim, he said multiple times last off season they were into Carr.  Considering the number of times Keim said it, I'd deduce they were hot on him.

 

As I mentioned, Jay granted while is reluctant to take shots at QBs typically, and is kinder than most on QBs when asked about them, but sometimes he takes shots like he did on Trubisky during the last off sesspn when he was asked about him -- but he absolutes loves Carr and likes Daniel Jones.

 

As for cold weather games, yeah Carr hasn't been hot and that played out in the snow this last weekend.  I don't love Carr personally as a player.  I like him though, I'd be interested if he's at a reasonable price, not the contract he has now. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I trust Keim, he said multiple times last off season they were into Carr.  Considering the number of times Keim said it, I'd deduce they were hot on him.

 

As I mentioned, Jay granted while is reluctant to take shots at QBs typically, and is kinder than most, but sometimes he takes shot like he did on Trubisky during the last off sesspn when asked about him -- but he absolutes loves Carr and likes Daniel Jones.

 

As for cold weather games, yeah Carr hasn't been hot and that played out in the snow this last weekend.  I don't love Carr personally as a player.  I like him though, I'd be interested if he's at a reasonable price, not the contract he has now. 

 

 

Per Anthony Galaviz of the Fresno Bee, Carr was asked Del Rio's belief that he doesn't perform well in cold-weather games. 

"Jack was with there with me a couple of those times," he said. "I used to think this was a team game. Yes. It's all my fault, and I take full responsibility."

After seeing Carr's comments, Del Rio issued a response on Twitter: "It is definitely a team game and I'm hoping DC comes thru, plays well and helps his team earn a piece of 1st place in the AFC west! But the fact remains he hasn't played well in cold weather."

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I can see that...I was thinking of guys like Jimmy G. and Tannehill.   Jones and guys like Mayfield are average with upside, so I'd rather target those types.  

I don’t put Mayfield in the average category.  I put him in the long-shot boom or bust, sign him on a flier with other options category.

 

i think Jimmy and Tannehill are the same guy.  Jimmy might be a bit better but he’s always hurt.  
 

I think DJones is one step below either of them, but still deserving of a starting job.  

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

You have to use the word "frankly" in every sentence.      Or are you referring to Hurney?   When I hear the name Marty, I immediately think of Schotty.

 

You have never heard of Marty McFly? 😂

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

 

Per Anthony Galaviz of the Fresno Bee, Carr was asked Del Rio's belief that he doesn't perform well in cold-weather games. 

"Jack was with there with me a couple of those times," he said. "I used to think this was a team game. Yes. It's all my fault, and I take full responsibility."

After seeing Carr's comments, Del Rio issued a response on Twitter: "It is definitely a team game and I'm hoping DC comes thru, plays well and helps his team earn a piece of 1st place in the AFC west! But the fact remains he hasn't played well in cold weather."

 

 

I am aware, I even watched a video of him saying it.  We talked about Carr exhaustively on the QB thread last off season includng that quote.  Del Rio also praised Carr plenty, too.

 

Del Rio isn't running the team. 

 

Keim doesn't make up stuff.  He's the only dude I can recall who got it right about them chasing Wentz.  Recalling his podcasts early last year, it was Carr mentioned again and again and again.  But they were ultimately told they won't trade him.

 

How do they feel about him one year later?  I got no idea.  But I got zero doubt multiple sources with the team that Keim trusts told him they were into Carr

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mojo]

I finally got time to watch the Niners game last night.  I especially expecting to see Heinicke look awful and Wentz excel.  It was the opposite. Heinicke made some great throws and had a few taken away by penalty or drop. Wentz looked like the same statue, he got bailed out by shovel pass as he was getting sacked and a dropped red zone interception right the hands of a niner LB.

Bottom line is our O Line sucks and our play calling doesn’t make things easier.  If Wentz plays against Cleveland, I would bet on them getting over 6 sacks.

[FLSkinz83]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am aware.  We talked about Carr exhaustively last off season includng that quote.  Del Rio also praised Carr plenty, too.

 

Del Rio isn't running the team. 

 

Keim doesn't make up stuff.  He's the only dude I can recall who got it right about them chasing Wentz.  Recalling his podcasts early last year, it was Carr mentioned again and again and again.  But they were ultimately told they won't trade him.

 

How do the feel about him one year later?  I go no idea.  But I got zero doubt multiple sources with the team that Keim trusts told him they were into Carr

 

I don't see much difference between Wentz and Carr.  

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I don't see much difference between Wentz and Carr.  

 

They don't really remind me much of each other at all as players.  But if I had to pick one thing is Wentz doesn't have a hot reputation for clutch play, not the case with Carr,

 

Carr has had bottom defenses in every season he's played.  Not the case for Wentz.    Carr runs in 4.6's.  Wentz doesn't.  Carr seen as a leader.  Wentz not. 

 

Both have strong arms, Wentz is stronger. 

 

Both QBs are flawed, that's why neither is a franchise QB.  The main thing that hits me in common which is the case for really all the QB who aren't top 12 types is the valleys along the ride can be ugly. They both have had rough O line play, for Carr's case that's gone on for longer but the Raiders O line much better this year.

 

You seemed hopped up about QBR scores when Heinicke got a good score for last Sunday.  In that same spirit, Carr is ranked 14th for the whole season in QBR.  Wentz 31.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Per PFF, this Heinicke/Wentz scenario is going to play out until Wednesday.  To me it’s a foregone conclusion that it has to be Wentz and this is all just buying time to have the conversations.

 

I can’t wait for the likely win and in scenario where Dallas blasts us and the Hive spends the next 9 months explaining to us how Heinicke would have won that game.  🤣

I bet the conversations have been had with everybody except the entire team.  Which will take place tomorrow.  Then they will announce it.

[Skinsinparadise]

Wentz and Heinicke IMO are different cats in the style they play.  Make the Browns game plan for both.  Game planning is typically today and Tuesday while Wednesday you practice the game plan.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

39 minutes ago, Number 44 said:

Wouldn't average be the 16th or 17th best NFL QB?

IMO there isnt 32 starting QBs in the league. Most of the time its roughly 12-16. The rest is some combination of rookie contracts, retreads, or rando place holder for bad teams. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Zim489

[FLSkinz83]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

They don't really remind me much of each other at all as players. 

 

I wasn't comparing their styles.  More so their level.   You can certainly make the case for Carr being better at this point, but I think you'll have to pay 30 mil to get Carr.  

Assuming Wentz doesn't light it up the rest of this year, I think you can keep Wentz for half that.

 

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

You seemed hopped up about QBR scores when Heinicke got a good score for last Sunday.  In that same spirit, Carr is ranked 14th for the whole season in QBR.  Wentz 31.

 

 

I only brought it up because I know you and others pay attention to PFF and QBR.   I don't really know/understand their criteria for scores.  I also don't know how you can truly grade someone unless you know their assignments or in the case of the QB where his initial reads are.  

Edited December 26, 2022 by FLSkinz83

[Redskins 2021]

They wanted Carr last year I remember that. This year with the team sale I could see all 3 of this year's Qb being brought back.

[FLSkinz83]

I was thinking that the sale might hold things back, but didn't the Broncos make the Wilson trade in the middle of the sale process? 

[shemp nixon]

1 hour ago, slinky said:

This is your answer obviously... but you can choose from either in this photo 

Who's mom is that?

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I wasn't comparing their styles.  More so their level.   You can certainly make the case for Carr being better at this point, but I think you'll have to pay 30 mil to get Carr.  

Assuming Wentz doesn't light it up therest of this year, I think you can keep Wentz for half that.

 

 

If I had to pick a hardcore position in the off season its context is king for me.

 

Whether its Carr, Jimmy G or whomever, what's the price is very relevant to me.

 

I am really open to anything and everything.  In short, I want them to be Zen and fearless.  By fearless I don't mean overspending on draft capital or cap.  But be bold.

 

I admit fixing this spot isn't easy.

 

Normally, I hate the idea of a band aid type of QBs.  I would be with the people on the idea of been there done that if I thought that this roster exactly mirrors where it was when they made the previous veteran moves.  But IMHO this is a roster that is more set up for the kill than those other rosters.  Also QB play is down in the NFC where even just average QB play means more than it has in the recent past. 

 

In philosophy, I of course would rather draft that guy.  But whom at our pick?  I do like Haener as I mentioned here multiple times in the 4th round-5th round range.   I am even OK with rolling the dice on Howell if Zampese really likes what he's seeing.  I am higher on Howell than most.  But I want them to have an open mind and attack this.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Jumbo]

22 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I don't see much difference between Wentz and Carr.  

 

 

post xmas update for stadium

 

i am sending one pair of clown shoes (order FLZSkinz83) back to amazon

 

i told them no refund needed, just make sure jeff buys the team

[MrJL]

25 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

IMO there isnt 32 starting QBs in the league. Most of the time its roughly 12-16. The rest is some combination of rookie contracts, retreads, or rando place holder for bad teams. 

 

starter by default is still starter

[KDawg]

28 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

IMO there isnt 32 starting QBs in the league. Most of the time its roughly 12-16. The rest is some combination of rookie contracts, retreads, or rando place holder for bad teams. 

 

This is a fun exercise.

 

For "simplicity" I'm splitting them into tiers. Tier I = Elite, Tier II = Clear Starter, Tier III = Fringe Starter, Tier IV = Backup, Tier V, Fringe NFL QB. Rookies are ranked currently without my thoughts on their future ability. So some will be lower than I think they wind up. 

 

Current starters:

 

Washington - Taylor Heinicke (until we hear otherwise). Tier IV.

Dallas - Dak Prescott - Tier II.

NYG - Daniel Jones - Tier III.

Philly - Jalen Hurts - Tier II.

Carolina - Sam Darnold - Tier IV.

Tampa Bay - Tom Brady - Tier II (at this point in his career)

Atlanta - Desmond Ridder - Tier V.

New Orleans - Andy Dalton - Tier IV.

LA Rams - Baker Mayfield - Tier III.

San Francisco - Brock Purdy - Tier IV.

Seattle - Geno Smith - Tier III (though trajectory has that on a big upswing after this season)

Arizona - Colt McCoy - Tier IV.

Minnesota - Kirk Cousins - Tier II. 

Detroit Lions - Jared Goff - Tier II.

Green Bay - Aaron Rodgers - Tier I (though he has had a bit of a downswing this year I still consider him Tier I).

Chicago Bears - Justin Fields - Tier III

 

NFC Totals: Tier I - 1, Tier II - 5, Tier III - 4, Tier IV: 5, Tier 5 - 1

 

Buffalo - Josh Allen - Tier I

Miami - Tua Tagovalioa - Tier II

New England - Mac Jones - Tier III

NYJ - Mike White - Tier IV

Cincy - Joe Burrow - Tier I

Baltimore - Lamar Jackson - Tier I (this is contingent on how he is used. If you try to throw more and reduce his running this drops. But he is where he is)

Pittsburgh - Kenny Pickett - Tier IV.

Cleveland - Deshaun Watson - Tier IV. (I don't care how good he used to be. He stinks now and he's not a great human (allegedly)

Jacksonville - Trevor Lawrence - Tier II

Tennessee - Ryan Tannehill - Tier III

Indianapolis - Nick Foles - Tier IV

Houston - Davis Mills - Tier IV

KC - Patrick Mahomes - Tier I.

LAC - Justin Herbert - Tier I

Las Vegas - Derek Carr - Tier II

Denver - Russell Wilson - Tier III

 

AFC Totals: Tier I - 5, Tier II - 3, Tier III - 3, Tier IV - 5

 

So by this list there are 14 definitive NFL starters, about 7 additional fringe guys.

 

So 21/32 teams have NFL starting QBs at the position at the moment.

 

Teams like the Rams and Cardinals (who have injuries) also have NFL starters. So I'd say there are about 24 starting NFL QBs in the league as it stands right now. 

 

 

[redskinss]

57 minutes ago, mojo said:

I finally got time to watch the Niners game last night.  I especially expecting to see Heinicke look awful and Wentz excel.  It was the opposite. Heinicke made some great throws and had a few taken away by penalty or drop. Wentz looked like the same statue, he got bailed out by shovel pass as he was getting sacked and a dropped red zone interception right the hands of a niner LB.

Bottom line is our O Line sucks and our play calling doesn’t make things easier.  If Wentz plays against Cleveland, I would bet on them getting over 6 sacks.

There's a lot to unpack here.

First off, I don't believe you when you say you expected to see Wentz excel and heinicke awful. 

I believe you said that so that your next comments would seem unbiased but they didnt.

Heinicke did have some great throws and his qbr for the game and almost universal praise for his first half performance indicates that but you conveniently ignored yet another lost fumble and an atrocious throw resulting in an interception while somehow simultaneously faulting Wentz for a great improvisational play resulting in a large gain and a first down.

You very well could be right about Wentz and how the browns game plays out but your take on the performance from the two of them in the 49ers game comes off very Homerish. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, redskinss said:

You very well could be right about Wentz and how the browns game plays out but your take on the performance from the two of them in the 49ers game comes off very Homerish. 

Nah, Heini-ish.  You can always tell when folks been drunk on the Heini.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

There's a lot to unpack here.

First off, I don't believe you when you say you expected to see Wentz excel and heinicke awful. 

I believe you said that so that your next comments would seem unbiased but they didnt.

Heinicke did have some great throws and his qbr for the game and almost universal praise for his first half performance indicates that but you conveniently ignored yet another lost fumble and an atrocious throw resulting in an interception while somehow simultaneously faulting Wentz for a great improvisational play resulting in a large gain and a first down.

You very well could be right about Wentz and how the browns game plays out but your take on the performance from the two of them in the 49ers game comes off very Homerish. 

Fascinating… my mind immediately went to 1) how did he know Wentz played, and why did he say he expected to see Wentz excel/TH look awful.  I concluded he probably either looked up their numbers, or he followed the game day thread… I didn’t even consider your ulterior motive assumption.  (Edit: I should add, I had/have no idea on his stance on Heinicke prior to that post)

 

 

Separate from above, I only got to watch Wentz on the td drive.  Man, that ball really leapt out of his hands - what a stark difference.  Related to that - and I’m truly not trying to ding Wentz here (even if it’s falls under some criticism for his touch on short passes), but I laughed out loud on the short pass he threw to Williams.  Williams looked like he’d just taken a hit… almost falling into the category of contact balance (or yards after contact), lol.

 

I’m not going to read too much into Wentz’ performance, but it was definitely an encouraging sign.  I hoped he (or Howell) would get a chance to play (these last couple games) to see if they could provide a spark.  Here’s hoping that’s how it pans out.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by skinny21