The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[SoCalSkins]

17 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I think our bye week is gonna be huge down the stretch here....come back energized and we should destroy the NYG this week and then get on a plane with a real good test to see where we are against the Niners. I don't think this group is gonna be content just to make the playoffs, they have more to prove and have beaten the best team in the conference. Hell, they manhandled them. 

Beat the NYG this week and it's Heinicke vs Purdy.....LOL. 

49ers have nothing to play for. They already won the division and can’t catch the Eagles they also can’t be overtaken by the Bucs or whoever wins the south. If the Vikings beat Indy tomorrow they are likely not catching them for #2. So basically if we beat the Giants the 49ers game is a preview of the wild card round. I think Kyle saves his best game planning for the playoffs. 

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

They are aware of the little shortcomings they have and still winning! We beat the Giants on Sunday they will be in the driver's seat and realistically in the playoffs and possibly beyond. Being SB bound is all the motivation they need.

 

Being horrid in the red zone and having a low scoring offense in general are not "little shortcomings". Those are more or less deal breakers for any major run. Once we hit an opponent who can shut down our run game or who starts putting major points up on our defense, we're basically done for because there's pretty much zero chance of us even being competitive in a shootout.

[kingdaddy]

51 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

49ers have nothing to play for. They already won the division and can’t catch the Eagles they also can’t be overtaken by the Bucs or whoever wins the south. If the Vikings beat Indy tomorrow they are likely not catching them for #2. So basically if we beat the Giants the 49ers game is a preview of the wild card round. I think Kyle saves his best game planning for the playoffs. 

I was wondering about this, you have to wonder if the Niners will have a let-down, especially on Xmas eve, after winning the division. For selfish reasons I'm wondering if McCaffery will get a much more minimized work load? 

[SoCalSkins]

12 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I was wondering about this, you have to wonder if the Niners will have a let-down, especially on Xmas eve, after winning the division. For selfish reasons I'm wondering if McCaffery will get a much more minimized work load? 

Their best corner likely will be out:

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by SoCalSkins

[zCommander]

15 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Being horrid in the red zone and having a low scoring offense in general are not "little shortcomings". Those are more or less deal breakers for any major run. Once we hit an opponent who can shut down our run game or who starts putting major points up on our defense, we're basically done for because there's pretty much zero chance of us even being competitive in a shootout.

 

We have a top 5 rushing team now that will keep the other offenses off the field which will not allow the other team to score on us a lot coupled with top 2 overall defense.

 

Many thought we would lose to higher and potent offence of the Eagles too.

 

Ball control and time of possession is something this team is good at. See Tampa game last year as well. 

 

So please spare with these shootout scenarios! Our D is more than capable of preventing that or unless you are saying our defense sucks.

[Zim489]

13 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

We have a top 5 rushing team now that will keep the other offenses off the field which will not allow the other team to score on us a lot coupled with top 2 overall defense.

 

Many thought we would lose to higher and potent offence of the Eagles too.

 

Ball control and time of possession is something this team is good at. See Tampa game last year as well. 

 

So please spare with these shootout scenarios! Our D is more than capable of preventing that or unless you are saying our defense sucks.

The odds of the eagles beating themselves with 3 turnovers again along with the non Facemask play call beating them 2 times in philly is pretty much zero. Kirk in Minny inside in a playoff game will be hard.

 

Not many football games are won in the playoffs with under 20 points which is about our limit. We play a razor thin margin that requires a ton of things to go our way. Were essentially the 15th seed in the NCAA tournament. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Zim489

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

We have a top 5 rushing team now that will keep the other offenses off the field which will not allow the other team to score on us a lot coupled with top 2 overall defense.

 

Many thought we would lose to higher and potent offence of the Eagles too.

 

Ball control and time of possession is something this team is good at. See Tampa game last year as well. 

 

So please spare with these shootout scenarios! Our D is more than capable of preventing that or unless you are saying our defense sucks.

 

What happens when the ball control thing doesn't matter because the opposing offense comes out and can score quickly? Our defense is really good, but the NFL nowadays is geared towards high scoring potent passing offenses having the advantage. There's only so long that your defense will be able to shut opposing offenses down. Eventually, someone is going to put up some big points on you, and if you don't have the capability of putting up points yourself, you're basically done.

 

So as it is now, we have to have multiple things go right to win. Our defense has to keep their offense to a low score, our rushing attack has to be effective, and because the score will necessarily be close (since we don't score many points of offense) we also have to have some luck go our way. If any of those go sideways, we're in trouble.

 

So yes, we're good at what we do now. Because that's pretty much all we can do with the limitations we have. But it's not a long term winning strategy in the modern NFL. And our coaches know it, hence the scramble for an upgrade at the QB position over the last couple of offseasons.

Edited December 17, 2022 by mistertim

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Ooh, so maybe I’m not crazy after all!

 

Of course, the fact he says “when”, suggests they don’t see it the way I do - that they could interchange them almost whenever.  Wentz can hand it off twice and then come out.  Or throw a wr screen.  🤷‍♂️

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

So yes, we're good at what we do now.

Were absolutely good at what we do as well as have had so many things go our way during this run. 

[SoCalSkins]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

What happens when the ball control thing doesn't matter because the opposing offense comes out and can score quickly? Our defense is really good, but the NFL nowadays is geared towards high scoring potent passing offenses having the advantage. There's only so long that your defense will be able to shut opposing offenses down. Eventually, someone is going to put up some big points on you, and if you don't have the capability of putting up points yourself, you're basically done.

 

So as it is now, we basically have to have multiple things go right to win. Our defense has to keep their offense to a low score, our rushing attack has to be effective, and because the score will necessarily be close (since we don't score many points of offense) we also have to have some luck go our way. If any of those go sideways, we're in trouble.

 

So yes, we're good at what we do now. Because that's basically all we can do with the limitations we have. But it's not a long term winning strategy in the modern NFL. And our coaches know it, hence the scramble for an upgrade at the QB position over the last couple of offseasons.

 

This will be the best winning stretch we have had since the early 1990s with a win Sunday night. Yet according to you it’s not a winning strategy.
 

Super Bowl talk is not crazy either dude. 

[SkinsFTW]

3 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Ooh, so maybe I’m not crazy after all!

 

Of course, the fact he says “when”, suggests they don’t see it the way I do - that they could interchange them almost whenever.  Wentz can hand it off twice and then come out.  Or throw a wr screen.  🤷‍♂️

 

Heineke is good at moving the chains on long drives that likely stall in the RedZone so maybe bring Wince in for the last 20 yards once a game or something.

 

Probably not a good idea to bring him in for high pressure situations though so it'll be a tough decision.

3 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

 

Super Bowl talk is not crazy either dude. 

 

Yeah, it's pretty crazy man. The defense isn't playing that good and they aren't scoring many points. It's almost like the 05 Redskins with a broken down noodle armed Brunell.

 

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

 

This will be the best winning stretch we have had since the early 1990s with a win Sunday night. Yet according to you it’s not a winning strategy.
 

Super Bowl talk is not crazy either dude. 

 

I said it's not a long term winning strategy in the modern NFL, and it isn't. The kind of luck we've had in these close wins isn't going to hold up forever. We had a run last season as well and some people were saying the same stuff: "OMG! This offense works! Pound the rock, control the clock, stingy defense!", but then we ran into opponents who figured out how to counter what we were doing, we had no answer, and the wheels came off.

 

And again, NFL coaches don't disagree with me. Rivera is closer to an "old school" coach, but even he has said bluntly that it's a QB driven passing league now.

 

And of course Super Bowl talk is nonsensical. No team that can barely score 20 points against some of the worst defenses in the NFL is going to the SB. Not happening.

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

I said it's not a long term winning strategy in the modern NFL, and it isn't. The kind of luck we've had in these close wins isn't going to hold up forever. We had a run last season as well and some people were saying the same stuff: "OMG! This offense works! Pound the rock, control the clock, stingy defense!", but then we ran into opponents who figured out how to counter what we were doing, we had no answer, and the wheels came off.

 

And again, NFL coaches don't disagree with me. Rivera is closer to an "old school" coach, but even he has said bluntly that it's a QB driven passing league now.

 

And of course Super Bowl talk is nonsensical. No team that can barely score 20 points against some of the worst defenses in the NFL is going to the SB. Not happening.

I am usually very negative but I don’t know this has been the funnest season for me since Heinicke took over. I am beyond entertained. Super Bowl is not realistic but let me have my delusions until they are snuffed out by reality!

[kingdaddy]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

I am usually very negative but I don’t know this has been the funnest season for me since Heinicke took over. I am beyond entertained. Super Bowl is not realistic but let me have my delusions until they are snuffed out by reality!

This team believes in itself and they believe in their head coach. IF, they can win the next two weeks then things could get interesting. BUT, we're gonna need to see TH to start making more plays and fewer mistakes as the stakes get higher. I wouldn't bet against him, he's playing every game for his NFL future. 

[mistertim]

7 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

I am usually very negative but I don’t know this has been the funnest season for me since Heinicke took over. I am beyond entertained. Super Bowl is not realistic but let me have my delusions until they are snuffed out by reality!

 

[HigSkin]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Like I suggested a few days ago, if we stink inside the redzone cause of TH size and Wentz has better stats in that scenario throw him in on those situations.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by HigSkin

[MrJL]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

What happens when the ball control thing doesn't matter because the opposing offense comes out and can score quickly? Our defense is really good, but the NFL nowadays is geared towards high scoring potent passing offenses having the advantage. There's only so long that your defense will be able to shut opposing offenses down. Eventually, someone is going to put up some big points on you, and if you don't have the capability of putting up points yourself, you're basically done.

 

 

then the team who gets the ball last probably wins

[Skinsinparadise]

The Commanders have entered the national picture. Now, to stay there.

 

This is without question rarefied air for the Washington Commanders. Television executives, who know everything about the viewing habits of red-blooded, football-thirsty Americans, decided those red-blooded, football-thirsty Americans would tune out a game involving Bill Belichick’s post-dynasty New England Patriots going up against one of his proteges and would prefer some Taylor Heinicke vs. Daniel Jones.

 

 

Revel in it while you can, Washington.

“We’ve worked to try to become relevant,” Commanders Coach Ron Rivera said.

In a given December in the nation’s capital, that can’t be taken for granted. A 6-1-1 stretch transformed this weekend’s home game against the New York Giants into “Sunday Night Football” — replacing the Patriots and the Las Vegas Raiders, coached by former New England offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels. It might not be beautiful football. It is must-see TV. After so many meaningless holiday seasons, that shouldn’t be discounted.

 

But the goal here can’t be just a two-month stretch of relevance. The goal, both obvious and stated, must be to crank out December after December in which relevance is expected and the Commanders aren’t an afterthought but an actual threat.

 

Is that what’s happening? Does relevance in 2022 mean this roster and coaching staff will be back in playoff contention a year from now? And a year after that?

“You kind of look at every position,” quarterback Taylor Heinicke said. “You’re like, ‘Man, we got dudes at every position.’ ”

Well, except quarterback. We’ll get back to that.

 

There’s some truth in what Heinicke’s saying. The defensive line is obviously loaded with actual stars — Jonathan Allen and Daron Payne and Montez Sweat, with Chase Young (presumably) on his way back. The wide receiving core is led by Terry McLaurin, but it’s possible Curtis Samuel is even more dynamic, and rookie Jahan Dotson is promising and developing. Kam Curl is already a beast at safety, and Benjamin St-Juste is having a breakout season as a cornerback. The offensive line is banged-up but resilient, making holes for bruising running back Brian Robinson Jr. Logan Thomas is a reliable tight end. Jamin Davis has overcome a lost rookie season and makes plays at linebacker.

 

That’s dudes at every position.

“With what’s been happening with our young players playing and contributing, that helps,” Rivera said. “That kind of tells you that we’re heading in the right direction, and with the right mix of veterans, and you do feel like you have the type of foundation that you can sustain. That’s what we’re hoping for. That’s what we’re trying to build.”

In the last generation of Washington football, nothing sustainable has been built. There’s no overstating that fact. Every coach who has come in here intended to do what Rivera says he’s doing now. Intentions do not equal results.

Sustainable, in the NFL, should mean making repeated trips to the playoffs. That would indicate a core is in place and the right pieces are consistently filled in around it. That’s not something with which modern Washington football fans are familiar.

 

....So enjoy it. But while you do, think about whether this run means something sustainable is being built. Would a playoff appearance to close the 2022 season mean bigger and better goals are attainable in 2023?

“The more the young players get to play the last couple of years, including this year as well, it’s been very beneficial because that’s where your core is going to come from,” Rivera said. “Because as they develop and grow as a group together, you can add from that point on. And that’s really kind of what we’re hoping to do.”

Identifiable pieces of that core: McLaurin and Allen are both signed through the 2025 season, giving the Commanders leadership and production on both sides of the ball. There are upcoming contract decisions on Payne, Sweat and Young, but it’s reasonable to believe that some combination of those players will make the defensive line a strength for the next several years.

 

 

Samuel has another year on his free agent deal. Davis, Curl, St-Juste, Dotson and Robinson are among those on rookie contracts. Roster-wise, there’s a lot to like.

And yet, somehow, it feels . . . fragile. Sustainability should have a sturdiness about it, an underlying tone that what already has been accomplished is just the beginning, that more is possible. With the Commanders, the possibilities don’t feel, at the moment, limitless. They feel decidedly limited.

That’s because, even with “dudes” at every position, they rank 28th in the league in yards per play (4.9). That’s because they rank 26th in net yards per pass attempt. That’s because they score on 30.7 percent of their offensive drives, better than just five teams. That’s because, seemingly every week, they play a one-score game that could go either way.

 

So, then, quarterback. We know, by now, Heinicke’s strengths — which are essentially resilience and inventiveness — and his limitations, and the list is long. We know Carson Wentz, even if he plays at some point over the final four weeks, isn’t the long-term answer — and in this case, long term includes 2023.

There’s a lot to admire about this run and this roster, and a prime-time game against a division rival in the season’s final month gives Rivera a chance to show it all off. But the core, at the moment, does not include a quarterback, and the search for that player remains the biggest reason Washington, for generations, hasn’t consistently been worthy of games like it will play Sunday — in prime time, for all the world to see.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/15/washington-commanders-playoffs/

[skinzplay]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Our boy, Smoot basically was calling for this with Wentz-Heinicke

Edited December 17, 2022 by skinzplay
Changed Smooth to Smoot, this damn autocorrect was too correct

[El Mexican]

21 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

What's the direct correlation? Please explain it in specific terms, without throwing out words like "moxie".

 

It's clear that Turner is intentionally limiting what he's asking TH to do, and we're relying mostly on the run game with some short and intermediate play action passes mixed in here and there.

 

TH has had a healthy BRob, a healthier OL, and a revamped defense to lean on heavily. He's not asked to do all that much.

 

The proof is right there in the W-L record.

The other variables you mentioned are a consequence of the level of play of TH. It's undoubtably better than Wentz's.

 

That doesn't mean TH is the new Elway. Far from it.

The common-sense reality is that he is in fact better than a washed-up QB and that has brought us here, deep into December with a chance to the playoffs.

 

If only TH would have started back in September...

[mistertim]

43 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

The proof is right there in the W-L record.

The other variables you mentioned are a consequence of the level of play of TH. It's undoubtably better than Wentz's.

 

That doesn't mean TH is the new Elway. Far from it.

The common-sense reality is that he is in fact better than a washed-up QB and that has brought us here, deep into December with a chance to the playoffs.

 

If only TH would have started back in September...

 

 

Ok, so we're back to the "everything that's working well is a result of Heinicke" trope?

 

Also, by logical extension of your use of the W-L as the main stat of interest, if Heinicke had been throwing for 400 yards and 3-4 TDs per game but the team was still losing, he should be benched, right?

Edited December 17, 2022 by mistertim

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

What happens when the ball control thing doesn't matter because the opposing offense comes out and can score quickly? Our defense is really good, but the NFL nowadays is geared towards high scoring potent passing offenses having the advantage. There's only so long that your defense will be able to shut opposing offenses down. Eventually, someone is going to put up some big points on you, and if you don't have the capability of putting up points yourself, you're basically done.

 

So as it is now, we have to have multiple things go right to win. Our defense has to keep their offense to a low score, our rushing attack has to be effective, and because the score will necessarily be close (since we don't score many points of offense) we also have to have some luck go our way. If any of those go sideways, we're in trouble.

 

So yes, we're good at what we do now. Because that's pretty much all we can do with the limitations we have. But it's not a long term winning strategy in the modern NFL. And our coaches know it, hence the scramble for an upgrade at the QB position over the last couple of offseasons.

 

This is a little annoying to me since you keep on saying this like we don't know or live under a rock or something. 

 

I am talking about THIS YEAR only and you made fun of us not being able to get to the SB. This is what this conversation was supposed to be about. You just side stepped that with your boiler plate response (bolded above) that you have been giving since the offseason. Like nothing has changed at all from starting the season 1-4 to possibly locking up a playoff spot by Christmas eve. 

 

The Eagles did just that. Came out and scored quickly on us. We took our time and matched their 7. This also allowed us to take time off the clock and not get them back on the field quickly. In the modern NFL that is how you shutdown a high powered offense. 

 

As for luck, every team on every game day has some sort of "luck" and sometimes you have to create your own luck as well. 

 

Btw, no one knows if Ron is going to put Wentz back on the field for the playoff run. There is your wild card that you are also ignoring as well and so hung up on high powered this and high powered that and you are just simply trying to downplay what we have been able to do so far with what we have. 

 

I am here to support the team through thick and thin. IF it happens I am sure everyone will be elated and jubilant. 

 

 

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

This is a little annoying to me since you keep on saying this like we don't know or live under a rock or something. 

 

I am talking about THIS YEAR only and you made fun of us not being able to get to the SB. This is what this conversation was supposed to be about. You just side stepped that with your boiler plate response (bolded above) that you have been giving since the offseason. Like nothing has changed at all from starting the season 1-4 to possibly locking up a playoff spot by Christmas eve. 

 

The Eagles did just that. Came out and scored quickly on us. We took our time and matched their 7. This also allowed us to take time off the clock and not get them back on the field quickly. In the modern NFL that is how you shutdown a high powered offense. 

 

As for luck, every team on every game day has some sort of "luck" and sometimes you have to create your own luck as well. 

 

Btw, no one knows if Ron is going to put Wentz back on the field for the playoff run. There is your wild card that you are also ignoring as well and so hung up on high powered this and high powered that and you are just simply trying to downplay what we have been able to do so far with what we have. 

 

I am here to support the team through thick and thin. IF it happens I am sure everyone will be elated and jubilant. 

 

 

 

Can you actually refute what I said in the bolded portion, or are you just going to complain about me saying it multiple times? The reason I keep saying it is because it's true, and it seems people keep ignoring it because they don't like it because it doesn't fit in with their preferred narrative.

 

Seriously, pretty much every single NFL coach acknowledges it. I'm not making it up.

 

And the super bowl is still a ludicrous thing to think about when our offense sucks.

[zCommander]

23 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Can you actually refute what I said in the bolded portion, or are you just going to complain about me saying it multiple times? The reason I keep saying it is because it's true, and it seems people keep ignoring it because they don't like it because it doesn't fit in with their preferred narrative.

 

Seriously, pretty much every single NFL coach acknowledges it. I'm not making it up.

 

And the super bowl is still a ludicrous thing to think about when our offense sucks.

 

What is there to refute? That they didn't think highly of TH and that is why they got Fitz and Wentz? I will give you Wentz but not Fitz. TH got hurt by being dropped on his left shoulder twice in the playoff game so they were not going to go into the season with banged up TH and not knowing if he can be durable for a whole season. We all saw what happened last year. He was actually pretty durable. The coaches bet against themselves and lost. 

 

So this year, again they felt they needed to stretch the field and the got Wentz. Except they couldn't protect the QB because they ran out of money. Could have just gone with my plan of starting TH and getting the lines fixed and then drop a QB in 2023 either from the draft - preferred or a vet. But Dan wanted a "real" QB so we got that. He gets hurt and we are back to TH again. 

 

I don't believe in karma but it seems like everytime you beat down and degrade on TH he keeps popping up lol 

 

Quote

Seriously, pretty much every single NFL coach acknowledges it. I'm not making it up.

 

And you know this how? Did every coach in the NFL send you an email to let you know that TH sucks? lol

 

I think about SB every year. I thought we were going to the SB with RGIII (rookie year) and then with Kirk and then with Alex. I even said, in the offseason, we would win 11-12 games this year (but said with Wentz but will take it with TH at the helm as well).

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by zCommander

[SkinsFTW]

31 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I don't believe in karma but it seems like everytime you beat down and degrade on TH he keeps popping up lol 

 

It is very Doofus Dan (not Karma) to have spent over 40M on  2 new QBs the past 2 seasons only to have it end up with Heineke sitting there with about 90% of the wins over the past 2 years.

 

Meanwhile the OL is falling apart, that 40M could have bought almost an entire new OL. But the funny thing is that the OL would have benefitted Wince more than Heineke anyway.

 

That's an easy way to see that Wince isn't worth a contract at all. Between himself and the OL he would require to be worthwhile you'd spend  close to 50% of the cap.