The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I don't think it did roll over or occur over the course of two seasons though, because it didn't continue through last season. It was there for a 4 game win streak and then fizzled big time during the ensuing 5 games. We only won the final game because the Giants had basically given up on life to the point of doing QB sneaks on 3rd and 9 at their own 5 yard line.

 

 

You can't possibly think anyone would be upset with us winning a Super Bowl.

FYI, he only played 4/5 to end the season.

I think it’s safe to say at this point that Dallas was (and still is) just a bad matchup.  His week 17 game against the Eagles was basically his usual type of game.  Does that game go differently if he was throwing to Thomas/McKissick instead of Bates/Patterson?  Or if Gibson was the lead back over Patterson?  Who knows.

Point being, only 1 team (Dallas) has been able to shut down both Heinicke and our ground attack since last year’s TB game.  

 

So you have the 2 Dallas matchups, 10 games in which Heinicke is who he is, and then the 1 outlier - his game in week 18 game vs the Giants.  

 

And on a related note, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that out of those 13 games, the 2 Dallas matchups were also the only times our defense really struggled (they did ok in one of the games though).  Taking it a step beyond that - if we set aside those 2 Dallas games, our record is 9-2 since we switched to this brand of football (with TH under center).  Crazy.  

 

Edit:  reading that back, it sounds like I’m trying to give the credit to Heinicke.  I’m not.  I think he plays a role, but it’s really about the synergy between the ground and pound and a rested defense.  He does deserve some credit for moving the chains at times, making plays here and there, and scrambling a bit…

Edited November 22, 2022 by skinny21

[NoCalMike]

Despite the areas (specific players) that could still be upgraded, I think this team *right now* is a red zone offense away from being really good.  While, Heinicke is not the answer, and the QB position needs to be addressed, I am thinking just merely what we have to work with in 2022.   The coaches need to figure out what the problem is with scoring TDs.  They can move the ball, they can rack up yards, but everything seems to stall in the redzone.  Is it the QB, is it the O-line, is it most of the TE's being injured for stretches this season?  Will Dotson returning to 100% be a big boost?  Is it the playcalling or are opportunities simply being missed that the film shows are there to be had?    The answer is likely a combination of all the above, but also, the Tight Ends are starting to get healthy, at least Logan & Cole (for now), we have some of the O-line also returning so that should help.  Dotson is back....etc etc etc.....so that leaves QB and playcalling, both of which likely need to be better.

[mistertim]

20 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Trade? He's due to become a FA.

 

I can't imagine SF just letting him walk for nothing with the numbers he's currently putting up. At the very least they'd probably tag and trade him.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Despite the areas (specific players) that could still be upgraded, I think this team *right now* is a red zone offense away from being really good.  While, Heinicke is not the answer, and the QB position needs to be addressed, I am thinking just merely what we have to work with in 2022.   The coaches need to figure out what the problem is with scoring TDs.  They can move the ball, they can rack up yards, but everything seems to stall in the redzone.  Is it the QB, is it the O-line, is it most of the TE's being injured for stretches this season?  Will Dotson returning to 100% be a big boost?  Is it the playcalling or are opportunities simply being missed that the film shows are there to be had?    The answer is likely a combination of all the above, but also, the Tight Ends are starting to get healthy, at least Logan & Cole (for now), we have some of the O-line also returning so that should help.  Dotson is back....etc etc etc.....so that leaves QB and playcalling, both of which likely need to be better.

 

 

I tend to chalk red zone issues up to the OC/HC, regardless of who the QB is. I remember back in 2009 when the "bingo caller" was brought in by Snyder specifically to call red zone plays because Dan thought Zorn sucked at it. There was almost immediate noticeable improvement, and Jason Campbell had 18 red zone TDs that year.

[skinny21]

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Despite the areas (specific players) that could still be upgraded, I think this team *right now* is a red zone offense away from being really good.  While, Heinicke is not the answer, and the QB position needs to be addressed, I am thinking just merely what we have to work with in 2022.   The coaches need to figure out what the problem is with scoring TDs.  They can move the ball, they can rack up yards, but everything seems to stall in the redzone.  Is it the QB, is it the O-line, is it most of the TE's being injured for stretches this season?  Will Dotson returning to 100% be a big boost?  Is it the playcalling or are opportunities simply being missed that the film shows are there to be had?    The answer is likely a combination of all the above, but also, the Tight Ends are starting to get healthy, at least Logan & Cole (for now), we have some of the O-line also returning so that should help.  Dotson is back....etc etc etc.....so that leaves QB and playcalling, both of which likely need to be better.

I think it’s mostly Heinicke.  I don’t think our oline is doing him many favors there, and Turner certainly has had a few head-scratching calls, but yeah… I think it’s the qb.  And in his defense, I think he’s maybe a bit risk-adverse there (the team’s winning without scoring much), and maybe he knows his arm limitations to some extent?  🤷‍♂️

[zCommander]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

I think it’s mostly Heinicke.  I don’t think our oline is doing him many favors there, and Turner certainly has had a few head-scratching calls, but yeah… I think it’s the qb.  And in his defense, I think he’s maybe a bit risk-adverse there (the team’s winning without scoring much), and maybe he knows his arm limitations to some extent?  🤷‍♂️

 

I would say Taylor is more than capable of throwing a quick slant in the redzone for positive yards or even a TD. I am trying to remember do even do that in the compressed area? 

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

A 7th seed and a likely quick exit, not exactly worthy of much.

 

The new owner will see the team has no qb. The new owner will Absolutely want his own personnel man running things. Most likely he makes the change after the draft but he will Not want Ron’s people longer than he has to. He probably will also see Ron has to much power and too much on his plate and strip him of all duties but coaching. Ron may choose to leave.  The new owner isn’t going to just go with what he inherited.

You have literally no idea what a new owner will want, or even who the new owner will be or when they will take ownership.

 

Remember when every single one of your off season predictions didn’t come true? Like, not one?  The one you were loudest wrong about was Terry being traded.

 

This is akin to any of those failed opinions.  Learn from past mistakes.  Don’t go in so hard on something when you have literally no idea what will happen, especially since you don’t even know who’s making the decision.

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I would say Taylor is more than capable of throwing a quick slant in the redzone for positive yards or even a TD. I am trying to remember do even do that in the compressed area? 

A quick slant in the red zone is a tough play because the LB is generally lining up where the WR would be headed.  In order for it to work, the WR has to win AND the LB has to be out of the play or else he’ll undercut the route for a TD. 
 

There isn’t time for PA, so something else has to cause the LB to move.  
 

Now, if the WR lines up WAY outside and has 1:1 coverage and the LB is not a factor, then a QB has to rifle the ball in so that the WR can get position before the DB can knock the ball away.  I don’t think TH has that type of arm. 
 

It’s why you don’t see a ton of slants from inside then 5.  And I LOVE the slant.  One of my favorite routes.  But it’s not ideal in that situation. 
 

FWIW, with goal to go situations, my opinion of what TH could do best would be to get him outside with a run pass option.  If something opens up, throw it, otherwise dive for the pylon.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

A quick slant in the red zone is a tough play because the LB is generally lining up where the WR would be headed.  In order for it to work, the WR has to win AND the LB has to be out of the play or else he’ll undercut the route for a TD. 
 

 

 

Gotta design the slant play better, then...I think Gruden had some decent slant plays up his OC sleeve while here. I'm remembering Jordan Reed's game-winner against the Bucs: we had like 9 WRs bunched to the left lol...Reed by himself on the right. Drew damn near all the defenders over to the WRs and left Reed basically one on one. Easy, quick slant pass. I feel like Turner would design plays that have WRs going to the exact same spot in the end zone or would call a fade.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

We're gonna end up with Jimmy G. You just know we will

This team right now with Jimmy G might be the prohibitive favorite in the NFC to get to the SB with the defense playing the way it is.  
 

I’d prefer Carr.  I think Jimmy would be cheaper.  

[redskinss]

48 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Just thought I'd mention that the team  is 9-4 in TH's last 13 starts, including 6-1 on the road. 

9-5 actually and they're 5-5 over his last ten or 9-9 over his last 18 if you'd prefer that stat there cherry pickin daddy!

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, redskinss said:

9-5 actually and they're 5-5 over his last ten or 9-9 over his last 18 if you'd prefer that stat there cherry pickin daddy!

 

 

 

How can they be 9-5 in his last 13 starts?

 

And actually they're 6-4 over his last ten lol...

 

And actually 10-8 over his last 18....

Edited November 22, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Gotta design the slant play better, then...I think Gruden had some decent slant plays up his OC sleeve while here. I'm remembering Jordan Reed's game-winner against the Bucs: we had like 9 WRs bunched to the left lol...Reed by himself on the right. Drew damn near all the defenders over to the WRs and left Reed basically one on one. Easy, quick slant pass. I feel like Turner would design plays that have WRs going to the exact same spot in the end zone or would call a fade.

I remember that Reed play.  Cookey went bananas on the call and said something like “how do you leave Reed 1:1 with a LB”

 

I was talking more about a WR slant, specifically to Terry, where the opposing DC would have to be really be an idiot to give a Terry a free 1:1 release for a slant, and move the LB. So, unless we’re playing Joe Barry, I think it would be tough.  Barry is enough of an idiot where it might work.  

 

TE, if you can bang it in there, maybe, but again, you have to be careful about a dropping LB or safety, because you’re throwing into the middle of the field where there are a lot of bodies.  
 

If I’m not mistaken, the pick Wilson threw to lose the SB to the Pats was a slant.  (I could be mis-remembering that)

 

Also, I don’t doubt Jay had a way to scheme up a good goal line play, even a slant.   He was a good to great passing game coordinator.  He just should never have really progressed from that to HC. He also sucked both in Cincy and here with the run game. Passing game coordinator is really his Peter Principal level.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I remember that Reed play.  Cookey went bananas on the call and said something like “how do you leave Reed 1:1 with a LB”

 

I was talking more about a WR slant, specifically to Terry, where the opposing DC would have to be really be an idiot to give a Terry a free 1:1 release for a slant, and move the LB. So, unless we’re playing Joe Barry, I think it would be tough.  Barry is enough of an idiot where it might work.  

 

TE, if you can bang it in there, maybe, but again, you have to be careful about a dropping LB or safety, because you’re throwing into the middle of the field where there are a lot of bodies.  
 

If I’m not mistaken, the pick Wilson threw to lose the SB to the Pats was a slant.  (I could be mis-remembering that)

 

Also, I don’t doubt Jay had a way to scheme up a good goal line play, even a slant.   He was a good to great passing game coordinator.  He just should never have really progressed from that to HC. He also sucked both in Cincy and here with the run game. Passing game coordinator is really his Peter Principal level.  

 

 

Cookey lol..."Cookey went bananas" might be my favorite typo sentence of the last 10 years.

 

And gotcha...that would be absolutely true about McLaurin specifically. And probably about most #1 WRs. I seem to remember Santana being used effectively in the red zone, though.

 

I did like Milne's route down on the goal line against the Vikings (I think)...so maybe Turner isn't all that bad as I made him out to be lol.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Cookey lol..."Cookey went bananas" might be my favorite typo sentence of the last 10 years.

How do you know it wasn’t intentional?  
 

hmmmmmmmm?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I’ll venture a guess that most every noodle armed QB in history has struggled in the red zone.  There will be exceptions like Drew Brees, but even then his arm, particularly early in his career, was liver than TH and he made up for his lack of arm with elite anticipation. 

 

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

How do you know it wasn’t intentional?  
 

hmmmmmmmm?

 

 

 

 

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

but even then his arm, particularly early in his career, was liver than TH and...

 

 

Ut oh, VoR...we have another contender lol...

[mh86]

51 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Despite the areas (specific players) that could still be upgraded, I think this team *right now* is a red zone offense away from being really good.  While, Heinicke is not the answer, and the QB position needs to be addressed, I am thinking just merely what we have to work with in 2022.   The coaches need to figure out what the problem is with scoring TDs.  They can move the ball, they can rack up yards, but everything seems to stall in the redzone.  Is it the QB, is it the O-line, is it most of the TE's being injured for stretches this season?  Will Dotson returning to 100% be a big boost?  Is it the playcalling or are opportunities simply being missed that the film shows are there to be had?    The answer is likely a combination of all the above, but also, the Tight Ends are starting to get healthy, at least Logan & Cole (for now), we have some of the O-line also returning so that should help.  Dotson is back....etc etc etc.....so that leaves QB and playcalling, both of which likely need to be better.

In my arm chair opinion, it’s a combination of

1. The OL isn’t great at pass protection (one of the reasons we’ve gone to a more run heavy approach). This kind of limits potential in the RZ.

2. TH doesn’t have the zip or maybe confidence due to that lack of zip to fit it into tight windows, which is usually what you see other teams score off of in RZ situations (QB lasers it to someone).
3. Can’t really explain this one well, but often time I see TH rollout when he can’t find someone in the RZ. He tries to buy time to make something happen, but then ultimately nothing comes of it. This could be a TH throwing limitation, offensive scheming, or something else all together (maybe combo of options 1 and 2?). 

[Voice_of_Reason]

46 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I can't imagine SF just letting him walk for nothing with the numbers he's currently putting up. At the very least they'd probably tag and trade him.

I don’t think they can.  I mean, sure they can, but tag and trade actually is not allowed in the CBA.  There has to be intention of retaining the player.  How you prove that, no idea.  
 

I think there is a sneaky chance they re-sign Jimmy though and trade the other guy.  They might look like fools for trading up and it not working out, but I’m not sure how you can mess with success. Hell, Ron can’t even bench the 45th most talented QB in the league because they run the ball 50 times a game, play good defense and wins, and the guy is beloved in rge locker room because he give out free Jordan’s.  
 

If Ron can’t bench Hienicke (and shouldn’t) then how the hell do the 49ers go away from a QB who had them in the playoffs every year and go them to a SB (so far, maybe 2 depending on how this year ends up)? 
 

I don’t think they can either.  

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’ll venture a guess that most every noodle armed QB in history has struggled in the red zone.  There will be exceptions like Drew Brees, but even then his arm, particularly early in his career, was liver than TH and he made up for his lack of arm with elite anticipation. 

 

 

 

Brees has a perfectly fine NFL arm, even a god one, until the last year or so when Father Time caught up to him.

[redskinss]

21 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

How can they be 9-5 in his last 13 starts?

 

And actually they're 6-4 over his last ten lol...

 

And actually 10-8 over his last 18....

It was 9-5 over his last 14 unless for some reason you want to cut a win off and call it 8-5.

Hes 4-1 this year and finished last year 1-4 which makes him 5-5 over his last ten starts.

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, redskinss said:

It was 9-5 over his last 14 unless for some reason you want to cut a win off and call it 8-5.

Hes 4-1 this year and finished last year 1-4 which makes him 5-5 over his last ten starts.

 

 

He finished last year 2-3, not 1-4 lol....you really need to look this stuff up first.

 

And the other guy you were responding to said Heinicke was 9-4 over his last 13 starts...you said he was actually 9-5. Which isn't possible.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[redskinss]

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

He finished last year 2-3, not 1-4 lol....you really need to look this stuff up first.

He did sit one of the losses didn't he.

But it's still cherry picking if you stop before the 4 games he lost before that.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, redskinss said:

He did sit one of the losses didn't he.

But it's still cherry picking if you stop before the 4 games he lost before that.

 

He was trying to show how Heinicke's been playing since the bye last year. Or if you prefer, since starting the 4-game winning streak last year. Either way, it's valid.

 

But his record as regular season starter is still 11-9.

[FLSkinz83]

36 minutes ago, redskinss said:

9-5 actually and they're 5-5 over his last ten or 9-9 over his last 18 if you'd prefer that stat there cherry pickin daddy!

 

 

 

You must be counting the Garrett Gilbert loss against TH.   

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

You must be counting the Garrett Gilbert loss against TH.   

I kindof think math is just failing him.