The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

And Kirk Cousins still stole more money from us.

 

Don't think so.  For what Kirk made here, he didn't steal squat.   But even if I went along with the logic, you'd have to say Bruce stole more money from us not Kirk.  Kirk's franchise tags.  The odd negotiating tactics.  Rebuffing an offer of a first rounder and plus for him.  On and on and on.  If i were Kirk i'd send Bruce one heck of a holiday basket every year for making him rich.  Talk about who got the last laugh.

 

I think its funny to this day how Cooley loves sharing the story of running into Bruce in the FO during that time and telling Bruce in the open market Kirk would get (don't recall the actual number) a number that ended up even 30 million less than what Kirk received and Bruce told him he's out of his mind.  It reminds me of the story that Keim shared where Bruce was irate with Keim for writing a story about how the fan base is shrinking some and Bruce called Keim into his office and said he's 100% dead wrong.

 

The irony is Bruce's smugness and "we are close" mindset came I gather from that short Kirk era which ironically included the only 2 seasons in row with a winning record (and just barely so) in Dan's entire tenure.  Who would think at the time that the 2015-2017 might be the most consistent high water mark run for 20 plus years under Dan.

 

Bruce though finished that era off and helped Danny take the organization back down the ditch which they are used to.  If they want to get rid of Kirk fine.  But a 3rd round comp pick?  Ridiculous. Even Jon Gruden made fun of that in his own press conference back in the day.  Then I recall how smug Bruce looked in an NBC interview when they broke up that WR group but suggested nothing to worry about -- touting the Pryor signing and how cheap they got Brian Quick. 

 

The stories that have circulated since from Jay among others about that roster, wow.  Jay wanted to keep Crowder and Desean.  Jay wanted to trade Kirk, Bruce would rather rent him for another year.  To stick it up the nose of Kirk's agent they gave Alex 4 years worth of guaranteed money.    To say that Bruce mismanaged things back then would be a mild understatement.  But Bruce is the dude that Dan deserves considering they seem likeminded in being smug, petty and incompetent.  It's wild that Kirk ever wanted to leave such a great organization. 😀

 

I get you really really don't like Kirk.  And you once were a big Bruce guy especially during the Kirk negotiation but you aren't a Bruce guy anymore.  But I'd figure with all the information that has come out since, the anger on the money side with Kirk would be directed IMO where it belongs and that is at Bruce.   For me, years later, I am agnostic about Kirk.  I don't blame dudes for the contracts they get unless they don't give 100% like Fat Al.  The contracts are on the FOs.  But Bruce is even worse than I thought at the time, the more stories continue to circulate. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

The Kirk comment was in no way praise of Bruce, but just saying that he wouldn't have gotten that much on the open market. Maybe a deal that paid him nicely but top 5 money two years in a row, I don't think so. So that's why I say he stole it. And Bruce was his accomplice. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

The Kirk comment was in no way praise of Bruce, but just saying that he wouldn't have gotten that much on the open market. Maybe a deal that paid him nicely but top 5 money two years in a row, I don't think so. So that's why I say he stole it. And Bruce was his accomplice. 

 

Bruce was more than his accomplice, he put the whole thing in motion, giving Kirk all the leverage and setting him up to hit FA --Cooley's theory at the time and he was friendly with Bruce back then was that Bruce thought he could outwit Kirk and his agent.  Naturally, they outwitted him. 

 

And with the benefit of hindsight, here's my thought:

 

A.  Kirk wanting to leave this dumpster fire which seemed to befuddle and irritate some fans at the time, who implied why not settle it with Dan-Bruce and suck it up but considering the more we learned later can we blame him?   

 

We saw some of the sleazy-incompetent behavior in actually how they handled the negotiation.  I recall Keim saying actually just that which was Kirk and his agent had questions about the competency of the organization among other things, for example, they'd tell Kirk a new offer is coming and then they'd email him the exact same offer from before.

 

As far as the sleaze-nastiness, he was there for the McClaughin nasty departure.  According to Mike Jones back then, the negotiation with Kirk post the Giants loss was acrimonious on Bruce's end so it started with a foul feeling to it that turned that side off.  I recall Keim said they had to make nice with Kirk that Spring.  Then two months later, Bruce did that ridiculous public press release saying Kirk is greedy.  

 

B.  Kirk has been decent but not a clutch player in Minny.  As I mentioned some of the same criticism that have plagued Wentz, have also ironically plagued Kirk.  Streaky -- up and down.  Not clutch.  Not always the leader.    But they've played much better than this team has after he left.  And at least they won a playoff game which is like winning a SB with this franchise under Dan. 

 

Bruce on the other hand got fired and is more infamous than even Vinny Cerrato was when he left.  And we watched Bruce bungle the Trent situation and the compensation for him as the cherry on top for his infamy to show his incompetence for big contracts-trade compensation extends beyond Kirk.  Joey Corry, ex-agent, shared a story of Bruce doing a similar thing with his client in Tampa -- in short valuing spite over trade compensation.

 

The thing about Kirk is I've had a few encounters with him.  More than any other athlete.  Not a ton but my kids did a QB camp with him.  I thought it was amusing and cool that he recalled my kids names throughout camp whereas Bruce could barely even pronounce Kirk's name right.  I was at the team's hotel during training camp one year and players typically avoid the public and I don't blame them for that.  But Kirk saw my daughter wearing his jersey and was like 35 feet or so away but came up to her to sign it and talked to her -- he was super cool, nice guy.  So lol for personal reasons among others, I don't hate Kirk.

 

I mentioned it at the time but I ran into Bruce once at the hotel.  He was nice too but more in a gladhandling politician style.  We ran into him again that next day and he didn't recall meeting us the day before.  Not that I needed him to remember but juxtaposed to Kirk recalling my kids names throughout camp when he had like 100 kids names to remember, I was impressed.

 

But like I said i am sort of agnostic about Kirk today as a player.  He's a good player but greatness has eluded him for sure.  As a dude, I've seen him up close a few times, where I don't think he's a bad guy.  Forgetting Kirk, I am not mad at ANY player for whatever contract they get unless they take the money and are lazy and just go through the motions like a Haynesworth. 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Of the list of guys revealed ahead of Wentz, the only 2 guys I’d say I’d take over Wentz for next season are  Tannehill and Kurt.  Say what you want, but Tannehill has won a lot and Kurt has his team to win more often than not.  (I would NOT take Kurt’s contract situation, however.) 
 

We’ve discussed Ryan ad nauseam. Next year, maybe a coin flip, though Wentz was better last year.  
 

Mac Jones, too early to tell.  But he is not as physically talented as Wentz.  

Baker? Please.  
 

And I would not take Watson ahead of Wentz due to his off the field situations.  If those disappeared, I would.  But not right now.  
 

I’ve said since before we traded for him, Wentz was one of the 15 guys walking rue planet who absolutely deserved a starting NFL QB job.  Nothing has occurred once then to change my mind.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

As a side note, do we really need to re-litigate the Kirk/Bruce Cha Cha Cha (thank you Galdi)

 

The entire organization mishandled the whole thing from the beginning.  Combined with the fact Kirk got MASSIVELY lucky in the timing that he had his 2015 breakout season in the last year of his contract.  The timing for him couldn’t be better.

 

It put him in a very strong negotiating position.  Then Bruce blew it.

 

Its done.  It’s in the past.  

[Skinsinparadise]

56 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Of the list of guys revealed ahead of Wentz, the only 2 guys I’d say I’d take over Wentz for next season are  Tannehill and Kurt.  Say what you want, but Tannehill has won a lot and Kurt has his team to win more often than not.  (I would NOT take Kurt’s contract situation, however.) 
 

We’ve discussed Ryan ad nauseam. Next year, maybe a coin flip, though Wentz was better last year.  
 

Mac Jones, too early to tell.  But he is not as physically talented as Wentz.  

Baker? Please.  
 

And I would not take Watson ahead of Wentz due to his off the field situations.  If those disappeared, I would.  But not right now.  
 

I’ve said since before we traded for him, Wentz was one of the 15 guys walking rue planet who absolutely deserved a starting NFL QB job.  Nothing has occurred once then to change my mind.  

 

I was one of the higher ones on Mac Jones before that draft but I'd still take Wentz.

 

Wentz IMO > Baker.

 

Matt Ryan in his career is clearly IMO a better QB than Wentz.  but the 37 year old version to me its a toss up as to 2022.  Will see.

 

As for Kirk, its a toss up for me.  Just about every national outfit that ranks the QBs would put Kirk over Wentz.   I think Kirk has the higher floor.  Kirk for his ups and downs isn't going to suck.  Wentz has the potential to suck but also has the potential to be great.  I think Kirk's ceiling is good to very good.  but I do think the two guys have a lot in common as for criticism, its almost the same identical stuff -- consistency, clutch play, leadership.   and as for personalities both by some considered uber rellgious and outspoken about it, nice guys but aloof and not loved by everyone in the locker room. 

50 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

As a side note, do we really need to re-litigate the Kirk/Bruce Cha Cha Cha (thank you Galdi)

 

The entire organization mishandled the whole thing from the beginning.  Combined with the fact Kirk got MASSIVELY lucky in the timing that he had his 2015 breakout season in the last year of his contract.  The timing for him couldn’t be better.

 

It put him in a very strong negotiating position.  Then Bruce blew it.

 

Its done.  It’s in the past.  

 

I didn't bring it up but if someone is going to lash out on Kirk -- my reflex is to lash out on Bruce.   Just like its tough for you not to take a shot at Jay if he comes up. 😎

Edited June 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I didn't bring it up but if someone is going to lash out on Kirk -- my reflex is to lash out on Bruce.   Just like its tough for you not to take a shot at Jay if he comes up. 😎

In my defense, I’ve gotten a lot better about taking shots at Jay.  I think it’s because the entire football world seems to agree with my assessment (proof: he’s been out of coaching at any level for 2 years, and doesn’t even have a media gig), so there’s no need to gloat (or take shots) I was there 3 years before 90% of everybody else.  (But I was. And I was right.  )

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

In my defense, I’ve gotten a lot better about taking shots at Jay.  I think it’s because the entire football world seems to agree with my assessment (proof: he’s been out of coaching at any level for 2 years, and doesn’t even have a media gig), so there’s no need to gloat (or take shots) I was there 3 years before 90% of everybody else.  (But I was. And I was right.  )

 

I think conversely I have been proven right that Bruce was a much bigger problem than Jay. 😛

 

And Jay's instincts on personnel weren't always wrong.  If they traded Kirk for a first rounder and change for example as Jay wanted, that could have helped the franchise quite a bit. 

 

Your angst was directed at Jay.  Mine was at Bruce.  What do you think the fanbase thinks with the benefit of hindsight as for who helped put this franchise in a ditch, Jay or Bruce?  I don't think its even close and the issues goes beyond personnel but delves into issues like rotten culture, the stadium on and on and on. 😉

Edited June 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[TheShredder]

24 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Matt Ryan in his career is clearly IMO a better QB than Wentz.  but the 37 year old version to me its a toss up as to 2022.  Will see.

Matt Ryan has been trending to the downside since 2019 where something happened that year and he was sacked 48 times and threw 14 INTs. His QBR had never been below 60 until 2019 {he was 34). QBR hasn't been above 60 since and bottomed last year at 46.1. He's always been a smart QB but more and more being prone to checkdown Charlie syndrome. I view this as growing physical limitations. His arm strength and ability to make physical football plays continues it's deterioration. Not likely to outplay Wentz in 2022 or beyond.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Your angst was directed at Jay.  Mine was at Bruce. 

Mine was both.  Always was.  As I said, what makes you think that Buffoon Bruce could pick a quality HC? It made total sense an idiot President would hire an idiot HC.

 

And it’s possible to have BOTH a disaster with Jay AND Bruce.

 

What drove me crazy is those numb nuts who tried to portray Jay as an innocent victim.  He wasn’t.  He Might not have pulled the trigger, but his finger prints were on the murder weapon. He was a bad coach.  
 

Bruce was by far the bigger issue.  No argument. 
 

But that didn’t mean Jay had to run the same play on first down for 5 years for no yards.  Or let a player twerk his nipple in practice….

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Matt Ryan has been trending to the downside since 2019 where something happened that year and he was sacked 48 times and threw 14 INTs. His QBR had never been below 60 until 2019 {he was 34). QBR hasn't been above 60 since and bottomed last year at 46.1. He's always been a smart QB but more and more being prone to checkdown Charlie syndrome. I view this as growing physical limitations. His arm strength and ability to make physical football plays continues it's deterioration. Not likely to outplay Wentz in 2022 or beyond.

 

Yep I've talked about his slide on this thread plenty.  Just about every national media/analytic dude seems to believe right now Ryan is still > Wentz.  My opinion is maybe yes, maybe no.  Hence for me its a toss up.  Will see.  no way to know until it plays out. 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Mine was both.  Always was.  

 

As I told you on those Jay rant threads of yours at the time that there is a reason why some of straggler pro Bruce people saw you as an alley to their point and they said so on those threads. 

 

Why?  You almost never took shots at Bruce on the FO thread.  You angst wasn't divided.  It was mostly directed at Jay.  And much of your thesis was that Jay underperformed the roster handed to him by Bruce.  If Bruce is doing a decent job handing Jay the groceries, isn't Jay the issue?

 

I do think you didn't care for Bruce.  But my point is you were so relentless on Jay and relatively light on Bruce as for taking shots that whether you intended to or not, you gave off the impression to some that Jay was problem #1.   

 

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

What drove me crazy is those numb nuts who tried to portray Jay as an innocent victim.  He wasn’t.  He Might not have pulled the trigger, but his finger prints were on the murder weapon. He was a bad coach. 

 

Nothing specific to Jay but ALL coaches here are handicapped.  I hated Zorn probably more than you disliked Jay.  but I still thought Cerrato and Dan acted like immature douches as for how they handled him that 2nd year.  And Zorn was a nice guy, I can't say the same for Dan.

 

In that same token most found Jay likeable.  Whereas Bruce wasn't but more on point Bruce's tentacles ran much deeper to destroy this franchise along with his put put buddy. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

I have not seen a national outlet rank Wentz any higher than 18. Usually his placement slots in the early 20s.

 

Simms ranking of 19 was higher than most, and even he knocked him down a spot from last year.

[Skinsinparadise]

Don't think many here are arguing that Wentz is doing well as far as the rankings in the national media.  Part of at least my point has been that many of them think very little of Wentz.  I think its though ironic and funny that some of those same people still think hes a major upgrade over Heinicke. So if Wentz isn't that good what does that say as far as what they think of Taylor.

 

But regardless it doesn't matter.   Maybe the hate motivates Wentz, maybe not.  At a minimum it must be odd for him to get all this early career adulation like below and now its turned where he's considered by many as a punchline.    Personally, I think Wentz will have a good year.  But will see. 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[88Comrade2000]

Who gives a **** About what Carson did in the past and where he ranks.

 

All that matter is what he does in 22 and whether he resurrects his career or ends his day as a starting qb.

[kingdaddy]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And Jay's instincts on personnel weren't always wrong.  If they traded Kirk for a first rounder and change for example as Jay wanted, that could have helped the franchise quite a bit. 

 

Jay was quoted in the big ESPN Magazine article on KC saying Kirk didn't want to make certain throws that the play called for him to make, throws in tight windows. He knew Kirk lacked confidence in himself and was clearly frustrated with him. I agree with your comment. 

[Thinking Skins]

23 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Jay was quoted in the big ESPN Magazine article on KC saying Kirk didn't want to make certain throws that the play called for him to make, throws in tight windows. He knew Kirk lacked confidence in himself and was clearly frustrated with him. I agree with your comment. 

And look who he's had (and who didn't like working with him). I'm not sure what Garcon or Jackson have said, but Diggs didn't like him and he was one of the best WRs in the league. Its true that he's had some great WRs so some of that must come from him making them good and giving them opportunity, but its not just him not giving them the opportunity because of confidence, its that he can't always make the throws. He gets abused in big games or against some of the better corners because he won't test them and when he does, they either knock it down or get the pic. It started in that GIants game in 2014, but since then he's just been a conservative thrower. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Tangent to our QB search this off-season…this could have been us:

 

 

 

[Burgold]

7 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Jay was quoted in the big ESPN Magazine article on KC saying Kirk didn't want to make certain throws that the play called for him to make, throws in tight windows. He knew Kirk lacked confidence in himself and was clearly frustrated with him. I agree with your comment. 

The thing I found surprising is Kirk reportedly wouldn’t make those throws when being asked to in OTAs or practices either. 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Jay was quoted in the big ESPN Magazine article on KC saying Kirk didn't want to make certain throws that the play called for him to make, throws in tight windows. He knew Kirk lacked confidence in himself and was clearly frustrated with him. I agree with your comment. 

 

He also said Kirk was the best QB he had in his career a recent interview and played him up.  The reason why Jay wanted to trade Kirk according to him wasn't that he didn't like him but he knew he wanted to leave and according to him the FO didn't believe him. 

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Tangent to our QB search this off-season…this could have been us:

 

 

 

 

that seems to be the new going price for elite QBs, thanks to Aaron Rodgers

7 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

And look who he's had (and who didn't like working with him). I'm not sure what Garcon or Jackson have said, but Diggs didn't like him and he was one of the best WRs in the league. Its true that he's had some great WRs so some of that must come from him making them good and giving them opportunity, but its not just him not giving them the opportunity because of confidence, its that he can't always make the throws. He gets abused in big games or against some of the better corners because he won't test them and when he does, they either knock it down or get the pic. It started in that GIants game in 2014, but since then he's just been a conservative thrower. 

 

I think the Kirk won't test defenses is way overplayed.  The clutch stuff is apt.   He typically has a strong YPA among other things.  Its weird that Alex Smith is getting a pass for this here because not only is that what he majors in, the stats and reputation back it big time, he might be known for it more than any other QB in recent NFL history.   If Kirk had a stat named after him like Alex for throwing short of the sticks on third down, some would be basking in that in delight.  So I do think its very personal with some with Kirk for whatever reasons, I recall some of those reasons on that thread.   

 

Bringing this back on topic, love Wentz or not, throwing short of the sticks and not taking enough chances is something we won't have to worry about.  We will live and die by that sword as far as aggressiveness.    Hopefully live much more. 

 

Love em or hate him, Kirk and Alex were professional QBs.  We haven't had too much of that under Dan.  I recall you think Brunell was the best we've had.  Personally I thought Brunell was "meh".    As a pure talent, Wentz IMO is the best QB in Dan's era maybe aside from RG3.  But will see if it plays out, got my fingers crossed and i am hopeful. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Califan007 The Constipated]

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

that seems to be the new going price for elite QBs, thanks to Aaron Rodgers

 

 

Not to mention Deshaun Watson's fully-guaranteed 5yr/$230M contract...

[Skinsinparadise]

Going back to "aggressiveness" PFF charts this via BTT.  Throws down the field in tight windows. 

 

They can argue against Wentz, and clearly, they oddly do but they can't argue that he's not been one of the best in this context of making successful tight window throws down the field and completing more of them than the standard QB based on their own metrics.  2018 being an exception but still not bad.

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Burgold]

I think Alex catches more of a break because his teams won. Even with the ‘skins, as awful as he was, he led us to our best record in years (6/3). On the other hand, Kirk’s teams always felt like they fell short. 
 

That may not be fair, but winning erases stink and changes perceptions. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

I think Alex catches more of a break because his teams won. Even with the ‘skins, as awful as he was, he led us to our best record in years (6/3). On the other hand, Kirk’s teams always felt like they fell short. 
 

That may not be fair, but winning erases stink and changes perceptions. 

 

The 6-4 was cool, they were losing to Texas and he was playing poorly bleeding into the 2nd half, that loss was computed as a loss on his record not on Colt McCoy who tried to rally them back.  But that record wasn't that different from when Kirk was here. The Chiefs were winners, I agree.   I think the reasons run deeper than that with some here, lol, as for the hate of Kirk I recall that thread very well.

 

But lets change the topic.  I know there is some Kirk thread for those who don't like him to vent about. For me I am agnostic about Kirk.  I used to care a lot but that was in context of Bruce.  And I will defend him when people attack him as a dude because I found him to be the nicest athlete I've met, super nice guy.  

 

Heck while I didn't think much of Haskins (RIP) as a player, I also found him to be a nice guy and explained why at the time.  And some dude who hated him labeled me as being a mega Haskins fan based on that alone and doesn't believe that I ever criticized him as a player albeit I was if anything infamous with some of the Haskins fans as being a hater for his play going back to before that draft.   

 

The cool thiing about going to training camps among other things is you can see some of these dudes up close and how they intereact with others and some IMO shine and some not so much as for standing out, granted in short samples.

 

To that point, I'd bet Wentz is a nice guy.  I am curious to see him in camp.  One thing you can see really well in camp is accuracy and velocity.  I'd be really interested in seeing that with Wentz especially after watching the others QB's we've had going back to 2017.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Not to mention Deshaun Watson's fully-guaranteed 5yr/$230M contract...

 

Yep and that's part of why if Wentz ends up good, the 28 million or so they are paying him for the next 3 years ends up a bargain.

 

It started with Dak getting 40.   40 seems to be the new 30.  And I gather 50 is now the new 40.

 

Supposedly the cap is slated to explode in 2024 so if they stagger/back load these contracts I gather teams can make due

Edited June 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise