The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Califan007 The Constipated]

14 minutes ago, Conn said:

I get that it’s all personal preference and whatnot, but I literally cannot imagine why it would be more interesting to anybody to discuss Heinicke over Howell. One is a known quantity. The other is a rookie with an unknown ceiling. There’s way more to it than that which tips the balance even more for me, but for argument’s sake let’s set the rest of the particulars aside and even then, that one bit of info is still enough for me. I’d literally rather talk about Cole Kelley than Heinicke. 

 

Been bit in the ass way too much by players with "potential" to want to take part in the overly-excited rhetoric anymore. I much preer talking about players who have already played and discussing the idea that they can improve (or won't improve) than go on and on and on about players--who have never set foot on the field--will obviously be exactly what we need them to be. I wait until at least training camp and preseason before starting to talk about how good (or bad) a rookie will be. Might be different if we drafted someone #1 or #2 overall, like RG3 and Chase Young...but other than that? Yeah, I find discussing if Cosmi, Davis, Brown, or--yes--Heinicke can and will improve from their first year with Washington more than assuming they won't and our latest batch of rookies will take over for them, just you wait and see...Love talking about Wentz, love talking about Heinicke, both good and bad. Howell? Not so much lol...get back to me in August.

[Conn]

Fair enough @Califan007 The Constipated, thanks for the explanation. I don’t agree with it, because a mystery ceiling (if you reign in expectations to a reasonable level) is still better than no ceiling to me. But I get it as a defense mechanism I guess. To me that’s almost a more bizarre defense mechanism than the false hope and hype you’re protecting yourself against in the first place (which is itself a defense mechanism against the misery of reality lol), but you do you. I can’t even think of a player that I thought was bad (after a reasonable sample size of snaps) who turned out to be good later. It’s usually either “we don’t have enough information” or “wow he doesn’t have it” for me. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, Conn said:

Fair enough @Califan007 The Constipated, thanks for the explanation. I don’t agree with it, because a mystery ceiling (if you reign in expectations to a reasonable level) is still better than no ceiling to me. But I get it as a defense mechanism I guess. To me that’s almost a more bizarre defense mechanism than the false hope and hype you’re protecting yourself against in the first place (which is itself a defense mechanism against the misery of reality lol), but you do you. I can’t even think of a player that I thought was bad (after a reasonable sample size of snaps) who turned out to be good later. It’s usually either “we don’t have enough information” or “wow he doesn’t have it” for me. 

 

Hmm...maybe I didn't explain myself well enough based on your response lol.

 

I'm definitely not trying to protect myself from disappointment. It's more an issue of the hyped-up talk about newly drafted players has shown itself to be irrelevant to me enjoying following the team. Even when the hype is kind of tempered. I'm more curious than excited about our draft class...not because I think they were mediocre picks, far from it. But that curiosity can't be addressed until they start to actually play and practice.

 

Also, wouldn't it be better for a player to have no ceiling? lol...

[Conn]

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Hmm...maybe I didn't explain myself well enough based on your response lol.

 

I'm definitely not trying to protect myself from disappointment. It's more an issue of the hyped-up talk about newly drafted players has shown itself to be irrelevant to me enjoying following the team. Even when the hype is kind of tempered. I'm more curious than excited about our draft class...not because I think they were mediocre picks, far from it. But that curiosity can't be addressed until they start to actually play and practice.

 

That’s fair, that’s the ultra-rational stance and makes sense to me in that context. 

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Also, wouldn't it be better for a player to have no ceiling? lol...

Yeah, but in sports parlance for some reason no ceiling has taken the opposite meaning, going high ceiling>low ceiling>no ceiling. For whatever reason. You’re right that it would make more sense to refer to massive upside as “no ceiling” and I’m sure some people do, although I don’t hear it often. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I apparently think higher of Matt Ryan than most on this thread.  But i think the hype for him this season is a bit out of hand.  Now Breer piling on. 

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/05/23/maqb-washington-commanders-dan-snyder-owners-counting-votes

The difference Matt Ryan has made from a cultural standpoint for the Colts, even to this point, has been palpable. And the pace and detail at which he works should be good for everyone on the roster—remember, the year Philip Rivers was in Indy was the COVID year, so most of the players on the team don’t have very much experience working with a quarterback at the level of Rivers and Ryan.

[Thinking Skins]

3 hours ago, Conn said:

I get that it’s all personal preference and whatnot, but I literally cannot imagine why it would be more interesting to anybody to discuss Heinicke over Howell. One is a known quantity. The other is a rookie with an unknown ceiling. There’s way more to it than that which tips the balance even more for me, but for argument’s sake let’s set the rest of the particulars aside and even then, that one bit of info is still enough for me. I’d literally rather talk about Cole Kelley than Heinicke. 

I like talking Heinicke because I like the way he plays. I would like to compare his highs and lows to previous QBs, but it seems that was outlawed here, just like we did Cousins, but it seems like after a much shorter period of time. Not much sweat off my back, I'll still do the comparisons and just talk about it with my friends in the barber shop or at other sites. but it does get frustrating how Heinicke went from unknown guy, to dream opportunity in the playoffs, to wow he really looked good, to maybe he should get a chance, to reliable backup, to he won us some games with his willingness to try to win the game, to he's the reason we're not winning games, to we can't win with that guy. I'm a fan of his mainly because I really like his story but I don't care if he never plays again.

 

I do think that a different offense may suit him better (WCO more than simple ball control) but someone brought up the discussion about what happens if Wentz goes down 16 snaps into the season like Fitz did. I think that's a legit question and I honestly hope Turner has an answer to it. Is it incoperating more WCO into the offense? Is it going with Howell and Kelley? Something else? But that's just my 0.02. 

[Skinsinparadise]

The Heinicke stuff reminds me a lot of the Colt McCoy talk back in the day with some saying he can be a starter, some said he is as good as Kirk or if not close enough, he's a gamer, loved by teammates.

 

Some forgot about that time.  But I recall it vividly. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

3 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Been bit in the ass way too much by players with "potential" to want to take part in the overly-excited rhetoric anymore. I much preer talking about players who have already played and discussing the idea that they can improve (or won't improve) than go on and on and on about players--who have never set foot on the field--will obviously be exactly what we need them to be. I wait until at least training camp and preseason before starting to talk about how good (or bad) a rookie will be. Might be different if we drafted someone #1 or #2 overall, like RG3 and Chase Young...but other than that? Yeah, I find discussing if Cosmi, Davis, Brown, or--yes--Heinicke can and will improve from their first year with Washington more than assuming they won't and our latest batch of rookies will take over for them, just you wait and see...Love talking about Wentz, love talking about Heinicke, both good and bad. Howell? Not so much lol...get back to me in August.

This is exactly how I feel. Howell has some great tape but what did Ron say about the guy who was athletic and on our PS in 2020? He stuttered when the lights shined bright. That was the whole reason why we brought in Heinicke. How do we know Howell won't do this, especially if our line doesn't hold up like it has been and suddenly he becomes a new David Carr (the Houston QB) or Patrick Ramsey. The other thing about Heinicke that I liked is arm strength aside and maybe bad throws aside what we saw was that when plays broke down he was able to scramble and either run for it (not enough in my opinion) or throw it to a WR on a jump ball a lot of the times. Now, some of these were not great throws or even ones that you'd want to congratulate him on, and at least one got Terry with a bad hit, but I look at that and compared it to other QBs who would just take the sack (John Beck) or throw the int (Grossman) or overthrow the WR (Campbell, Haskins) or just run it (RG3). Its not like Heinicke is a great QB - far from it. But I think he is in his proper spot as #2 and I hope that he can get better at this part of his game, knowing when to keep it vs throw a pass, and throwing better passes to his WRs on those broken plays. 

[JSSkinz]

Colts have made my AFC most hated list, even if Ryan is an upgrade and that's a big if, its minimal and mostly leadership over physical skills, to me the Colts traded for a less mobile Wentz but we'll see, with all that smack they've been talking they better hope it works out.

 

[Thinking Skins]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The Heinicke stuff reminds me a lot of the Colt McCoy talk back in the day with some saying he can be a starter, some said he is as good as Kirk or if not close enough, he's a gamer, loved by teammates.

 

Some forgot about that time.  But I recall it vividly. 

I agree and I remember Colt hitting Garcon deep when he came in in 2014 and saying that was why he should be the starter. Unfortunately he got hurt again and people said that's why he shouldn't be. But the thing was Colt would try for those big plays and use his legs to escape pressure and those are things you can rally around. I hated Kirk because he would stand there and throw a pic. That Giants game (2014) was so bad because he just looked like he didn't belong in this league. He got better after that but I question at what extent. Gruden always said that he didn't count that game against him because Kirk threw 4 pics but we were down so much and forced to throw. But he was still pis poor with his decisions. His future self got to the point where he would never throw a jump ball. Gruden's offense was great for him because it schemed guys open over zones, especially Reed and Jackson and Crowder. But you couldn't depend on that late in a game or against good defenses who were playing man. And he was so reluctant to run or scramble that he couldn't make anything of broken plays. It was so frustrating to root for him. 

[FootballZombie]

The complaining about bringing up Heinikie stuff reminds me about the complaining about Wentz/Colts stuff

 

The parallels are amazing, they don't even gotta say his name.

Edited May 24, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I agree and I remember Colt hitting Garcon deep when he came in in 2014 and saying that was why he should be the starter. Unfortunately he got hurt again and people said that's why he shouldn't be. But the thing was Colt would try for those big plays and use his legs to escape pressure and those are things you can rally around. I hated Kirk because he would stand there and throw a pic. That Giants game (2014) was so bad because he just looked like he didn't belong in this league. He got better after that but I question at what extent. Gruden always said that he didn't count that game against him because Kirk threw 4 pics but we were down so much and forced to throw. But he was still pis poor with his decisions. His future self got to the point where he would never throw a jump ball. Gruden's offense was great for him because it schemed guys open over zones, especially Reed and Jackson and Crowder. But you couldn't depend on that late in a game or against good defenses who were playing man. And he was so reluctant to run or scramble that he couldn't make anything of broken plays. It was so frustrating to root for him. 

 

Agree with some of this, disagree with more of it.  But I don't care enough to argue about it.

 

I recall Jay had a honeymoon period with some fans, where I joked at the time the way some played up Jay's "system" and how really almost any QB could get 4000 plus yards in it and put up big time stats including some saying Colt -- that Jay should be going right to the Hall of Fame if he had a system that was that elite level QB friendly.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 hours ago, Conn said:

 

That’s fair, that’s the ultra-rational stance and makes sense to me in that context. 

Yeah, but in sports parlance for some reason no ceiling has taken the opposite meaning, going high ceiling>low ceiling>no ceiling. For whatever reason. You’re right that it would make more sense to refer to massive upside as “no ceiling” and I’m sure some people do, although I don’t hear it often. 

I guess “no ceiling” means the floor is their ceiling lol…

[Skinsinparadise]

I hate the Colts now too.  To me it goes beyond just Wentz, the team seems so sanctimonious.  The way they act, you'd think they've had a run like the Patriots.   Sort of ironically reminds me about how oddly chesty Bruce was when the team had a short run of mediocrity to slightly above that after the losing years.    Granted the Colts are a better organization than this team has been.  But they haven't been even close to special in recent years.  It seems like their main point of pride is Ballard is considered by some the best GM in the league or at least top 5 and their roster is loaded in theory -- the most pro bowlers last year, etc.   

 

As far as Ryan goes, I get their enthusiasm about him in theory but I think they are oddly just ignoring his age.  I know some here think "meh".  But he's been a consistent top 8-12 QB IMO, except for last season with some brushes of top 5 play at his peak.  If he were in his prime, he is clearly a distinct upgrade over Wentz.  He's a different type of player from Wentz and actually majors in the three things that many (especially the Colts leaks) of have said Wentz struggles with which is clutch play, consistency and leadership.   So Ryan being very different from Wentz -- I get that narrative.  But Ryan isn't young.  A few years ago, I'd get it.  Now, I am not so sure.

 

I wouldn't be so chesty about it in their shoes.  Ryan isn't 29.   He's 37.   Maybe his last season was an anamoly but what if it wasn't and it was the start of a career slide?  Brady seems to have redefined the idea about age with QBs.  Rodgers is playing well late in his career, too.  But plenty of QBs have fallen off a cliff around Ryan's age.  And while prime Ryan IMO is easily better than Wentz aside from 2017.  Wentz might actually be hitting his prime.  We are about to find out.  If Wentz somehow discovers his 2017 form or close enough to that, IMO he's very likely to have the better season over Ryan.

 

I'll probably be at the Colts-Commanders game -- so Carson don't let me down.  I am jazzed about Wentz.  But I do admit i am a little nervous on that one -- Matty Ice who tends to be clutch and this is a game with some hype versus Wentz who doesn't have that same reputation on that front.  But hopefully an overconfident Colts gets their butts kicked.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Mrshadow008]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I hate the Colts now too.  To me it goes beyond just Wentz, the team seems so sanctimonious.  The way they act, you'd think they've had a run like the Patriots.   Sort of ironically reminds me about how oddly chesty Bruce was when the team had a short run of mediocrity to slightly above that after the losing years.    Granted the Colts are a better organization than this team has been.  But they haven't been even close to special in recent years.  It seems like their main point of pride is Ballard is considered by some the best GM in the league or at least top 5 and their roster is loaded in theory -- the most pro bowlers last year, etc.   

 

As far as Ryan goes, I get their enthusiasm about him in theory but I think they are oddly just ignoring his age.  I know some here think "meh".  But he's been a consistent top 8-12 QB IMO, except for last season with some brushes of top 5 play at his peak.  If he were in his prime, he is clearly a distinct upgrade over Wentz.  He's a different type of player from Wentz and actually majors in the three things that many (especially the Colts leaks) of have said Wentz struggles with which is clutch play, consistency and leadership.   So Ryan being very different from Wentz -- I get that narrative.  But Ryan isn't young.  A few years ago, I'd get it.  Now, I am not so sure.

 

I wouldn't be so chesty about it in their shoes.  Ryan isn't 29.   He's 37.   Maybe his last season was an anamoly but what if it wasn't and it was the start of a career slide?  Brady seems to have redefined the idea about age with QBs.  Rodgers is playing well late in his career, too.  But plenty of QBs have fallen off a cliff around Ryan's age.  And while prime Ryan IMO is easily better than Wentz aside from 2017.  Wentz might actually be hitting his prime.  We are about to find out.  If Wentz somehow discovers his 2017 form or close enough to that, IMO he's very likely to have the better season over Ryan.

 

I'll probably be at the Colts-Commanders game -- so Carson don't let me down.  I am jazzed about Wentz.  But I do admit i am a little nervous on that one -- Matty Ice who tends to be clutch and this is a game with some hype versus Wentz who doesn't have that same reputation on that front.  But hopefully an overconfident Colts gets their butts kicked.

To be fair with that oline and Ryan's lack of mobility and age we very well could be facing Nick Foles by that time. Which would have some interesting storylines in and of itself

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Mrshadow008 said:

To be fair with that oline and Ryan's lack of mobility and age we very well could be facing Nick Foles by that time. Which would have some interesting storylines in and of itself

 

Maybe. Depends if they had the same injuries-COVID issues in back to back years.  Matt Ryan has had elite level durability, almost Eli Manning level on that front.  He's missed 3 games out of 225 which is insane.  But does his luck finally run out?

 

The Colts O line has been one of the most touted units in the league for years including heading into 2021 but got decimated with injuries.  lol, I used to think when our team had a tough injury season, the bad luck would turn the following season but often it wouldn't.

 

 

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2021/6/7/22522517/pff-ranks-the-colts-offensive-line-as-the-nfls-2nd-best-unit-ahead-of-the-2021-season

 

 

PFF Ranks the Colts’ Offensive Line as the NFL’s 2nd Best Unit Ahead of the 2021 Season

Colts down to 7 healthy offensive linemen against Cards

[goskins10]

5 minutes ago, Mrshadow008 said:

To be fair with that oline and Ryan's lack of mobility and age we very well could be facing Nick Foles by that time. Which would have some interesting storylines in and of itself

 

I get what you are saying but Ryan is pretty solid and very smart in terms of not getting that hard hit. He has not had great lines in Atl but has remained healthy. It's becasue he gets rid of the ball and or goes down. And while he would never be considered a mobile QB, he can maneuver well enough to stay upright. He is a savvy well seasoned veteran. But I think his arm strength is starting to wane. He had decent numbers last year but you could see he was not as sharp and he did not have the same zip on passes. I live in Atl so I get to see all of his games. He has been a great QB for them, but they wasted his talents for the last several years and it felt like he was about to drop off at least some. 

 

Either Colt QB matchup will be a big story. I hope Carson touches them up for 50 LOL. Unlikely but we can hope. 

[Mrshadow008]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I get what you are saying but Ryan is pretty solid and very smart in terms of not getting that hard hit. He has not had great lines in Atl but has remained healthy. It's becasue he gets rid of the ball and or goes down. And while he would never be considered a mobile QB, he can maneuver well enough to stay upright. He is a savvy well seasoned veteran. But I think his arm strength is starting to wane. He had decent numbers last year but you could see he was not as sharp and he did not have the same zip on passes. I live in Atl so I get to see all of his games. He has been a great QB for them, but they wasted his talents for the last several years and it felt like he was about to drop off at least some. 

 

Either Colt QB matchup will be a big story. I hope Carson touches them up for 50 LOL. Unlikely but we can hope. 

That's fair for sure. Ill be curious to track the number of sacks Ryan takes vs what Wentz took last year. But I agree with both of yall I dont know that Ive ever wanted to beat a regular season afc opponent as much as I wanna beat the colts this year

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mhd24]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

 

The difference in arm strength is clearly noticeable. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

12 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

The difference in arm strength is clearly noticeable. 

 

I was thinking the same thing lol...

[D’Pablo]

Something about Howell reminded me of the past, and then I realized Sam Howell =  Mark Brunell. They are both fifth rounders with the exact same build. During his Jaguars days, I thought Brunell was one of the best, so I have some high hopes for Sam. 

[Conn]

The way Wentz effortlessly throws the ball…

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Koolblue13]

https://www.prosportsextra.com/baker-mayfield-heading-to-washington-commanders-mayfield-or-carson-wentz-to-be-starter/?fbclid=IwAR0OoXnnqfvP7olWji0dID0WyIJ24w7LDVuxQ6y7JVDT5qnAb8edbOpk2d8