The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[NewCliche21]

14 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

@RWJ  yeah, i'm looking at ridder with interest, too....of course mikerob really presented all the best stuff about the guy since he's downright stoked on him,  but the piece was solid and james palmer is close to the same level of enthusiasm saying malik had been under real pressure all season long due to o-line weaknesses but stood out for being able to make good results out of busted plays far more often that not, and that's a good thing...still, the consistent accuracy thing is big and his learning ability is something i want to find out more about too

 

<snip>

 

 

I'm curious if they took into consideration the former when discussing the latter, I don't know how to do that. 

In my/our field, if a person is performing poorly under duress, then it is reasonable to believe that there is a high probability that there's an inverse relationship between the presence of duress and the lack of performance.  However, chronic duress leads to it being normalized and performance is handicapped/zeroed out to accommodate for that (a long-term limp, so to speak).  So take a kid out of a tough neighborhood to which they've acclimated, while objectively in a better place, may perform more poorly in the "better" neighborhood.

Therefore, I wonder if Ridder constantly being under pressure or the threat of pressure is impacting his accuracy or if he just has accuracy problems and if that can be coached out of him.

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Ok…..? But the “reports” were about QB availability, not any other topics. What else would they have called about, the weather? 

 

Matt Nagy is now the QB coach at the Chiefs. The story I heard is that we called the Chiefs as part of doing due diligence on Trubisky.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

And yet Ron stayed with Taylor in the last game when it didn't matter and could have started Allen instead to see what he could do...hmmmmm

I'm honestly not sure what happened between Ron and Allen last season, but Ron became very reluctant to play him, and it's clear he is not in their long or short term plans, and it is clear that TH is.  

 

TH is in their plans as a backup QB, possibly third stringer, depending on what else they do.  As I've said a million times, you want a guy like TH on the roster.  He knows the offense, he can go in and run the offense in a pinch.  He might be able to start a game or two for you in a pinch if there was an injury.  He's a good guy in the locker room, and he's a good guy to keep around.  

 

He is Chase Daniel and Colt McCoy.  He's basically exactly the same guy. You don't want either of them ever starting games. (Unless you're Jay Gruden, I suppose).  But you want them on your team as a quality backup.

 

You are twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to defend the indefensible.  You're coming up with conspiracy theories, you're trying to make an argument that for some reason, TH is clearly better than Mitch and Marcus because he played last year when they didn't (and the only reason is because the starters on their teams didn't get hurt), you're saying TH couldn't win a competition last year in camp because they paid FItzy $10M (And the fact is everybody who watched practice said Fitz was miles ahead of TH, who never pushed him enough to justify any type of a competition), and a whole slew of other nonsensical arguments.

 

Occam's Razor (paraphrased) states that in most cases, the simplest answer is most often the right answer.  That's the case here.  

 

The simple fact is TH is not a starting QB in the NFL.  He cannot be the plan to ever start a game. Just like Chase Daniel can never be the plan to start a game.  And Colt McCoy should never have been the plan to start a game.  You have to have certain abilities to be "the plan" to start games, even if it's just for a short period of time, and TH just doesn't have those abilities.  All three of those guys could have a magical game here or there where everything goes right, and TH has had a couple of those games.  But in the long term, they are who they are, and they should not be on the field.  

 

ALL of the guys who they are talking about are upgrades.  Depending on the guy, they might be big or small upgrades, but they are all more suited to run a full NFL offense.  Each of them has rare physical gifts, and that's why each of them was picked high in the NFL draft.  And I get they all failed.  And maybe they will fail again.  But it's also possible after a little bit of time off, and in better situations, they have grown and developed a bit, and are going to be better.  Say what you want about him, but Mitch has the physical tools to be a really good QB.  Will he be?  No idea.  I'd guess not mostly because of accuracy issues.

 

None of the FA QBs are really the answer, though.  They will be paired with some rookie, whether in the first or second round, to see if the rookie can be the answer.  

 

IF they catch lightening in a bottle, and one of the FA QBs blossoms like Tannehill did in Tennessee to become a legitimate starting NFL QB, great.  You found lighting in a bottle.  

 

If not, they have to evaluate the rookie to see if they are who they thought he was, and if he can be the starter in 2023.  

If not, then they have to try again next off-season with a trade or another draft pick.  

 

The only thing we really KNOW is TH is NOT the answer.  Everything else is a question.  And if you KNOW TH is not the answer, there's really no point in playing him under any circumstance.  

 

I'm sure you're going to continue to twist yourself into knots trying to convince folks TH can actually play, he could be the bridge to another rookie, he is better than all of the FA QBs.  The simple fact is, he's not.  There are 3 posters on this board who agree with you, everybody else things you've gone a bit wacky in the head.  The coaching staff doesn't agree with you and the FO doesn't agree with you.  You're on your own.  

[RWJ]

N/A

Edited March 3, 2022 by RWJ

[Cooleyfan1993]

3 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Matt Nagy is now the QB coach at the Chiefs. The story I heard is that we called the Chiefs as part of doing due diligence on Trubisky.

Well, that would make more sense, i guess. 

[DJHJR86]

23 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

And Vick had a massive fumbling problem. Vick had a cannon. Burrow had a good arm. I don’t know if I can have Picketts arm strength higher than 5th in this class. Go watch the senior bowl practices in the bad weather days. You can clearly see the problem with the little hands and lack of arm. Had issues driving the ball

 

It's not as if he played in a city with notorious crappy weather conditions in the fall.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by DJHJR86

[RWJ]

14 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I'm curious if they took into consideration the former when discussing the latter, I don't know how to do that. 

In my/our field, if a person is performing poorly under duress, then it is reasonable to believe that there is a high probability that there's an inverse relationship between the presence of duress and the lack of performance.  However, chronic duress leads to it being normalized and performance is handicapped/zeroed out to accommodate for that (a long-term limp, so to speak).  So take a kid out of a tough neighborhood to which they've acclimated, while objectively in a better place, may perform more poorly in the "better" neighborhood.

Therefore, I wonder if Ridder constantly being under pressure or the threat of pressure is impacting his accuracy or if he just has accuracy problems and if that can be coached out of him.

I think, now I say I think  the accuracy problems can be coached out of him.  Why, because he is a hard worker.  Like I had mentioned, first on the field; last off.  Zampese is a very good QB coach.  I think Zampese had the potential along with Scott Turner to make Ridder a very good top 10 QB.  JMO, everyone.   

[Zim489]

1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

It's not as if he played in a city with notorious crappy weather conditions in the fall.  

The latest game he has in Pitt this year was November 20 and it was 45 degrees with less than 10 mph winds. 
 

tru and make a good argument if you want to be snarky

[DJHJR86]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

The latest game he has in Pitt this year was November 20 and it was 45 degrees with less than 10 mph winds. 

 

He played against UNC in a downpour in November.  I literally linked the game highlights.

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I can give or take Pickett.  I like the production, he has good movement skills, seems to have an NFL arm.  And he's charismatic and a leader.  

 

Mel said he could develop into Carr. I mean, Mel's been wrong as much as he's been right, but let's assume for a minute that he's right.  If that's his ceiling, he's worth the 11th pick in the draft.  

 

However, he's not worth trading up for.  So if he's there, you take him. If he isn't, he isn't.

 

I'm intrigued by Malik Willis.  Just like @Jumbo  There is no question he has all the tools to be a top 10 QB, maybe even better.  But when you play at Liberty, it's a REALLY hard evaluation.  

 

This would be where it would be great if the NFL had a minor league division.  You could stick him there for a year to start, develop him in an NFL style offense, and then bring him up.  But they don't.  So, oh, well.

 

The question with him is can he come in and can you create an offense for him where he can contribute right away.  And by that I don't mean run the Goddamn wishbone.  But simplify things in such a way where you limit his responsibilities with protection calls, simplify the reads, and bring him along slowly while playing an actual NFL style offense.  Just running R/O 20 times a game really doesn't help matters much.

 

If you think you can do that, then it's worth the draft pick and then playing him immediately to see what you've got.

 

If you don't think you can do that, then he's going to have to sit a year and learn.  Which makes signing the Tribiota more important. 

 

Personally, I wouldn't trade up for either of these guys.  But would take one of them at 11.  

 

Prior to that, I would sign somebody, Mitch or Marcus, or Dalton, or Teddy, or whoever, so you're prepared in the event Malik or Pickett isn't ready.

 

I would also say if you drafted Pickett, I would expect him to start immediately.  He's been in a pro-style offense, and they need to be able to get him up to speed by the opener.  

[Zim489]

13 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

He played against UNC in a downpour in November.  I literally linked the game highlights.

All I am saying is that it isnt meaningless. Its an important part of the puzzle. 

[Koolblue13]

I have zero interest in Willis. He needs a ton of work and we aren't the place for that. His floor is also really low. QB may not even be his best pro position. 

 

And run first QBs don't last in the NFL. They just don't and they become 60% of your offense and cost a ****load to resign.

[Zim489]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

His floor is also really low.

Irrelevant. If Willis bombs out Ron is gone and we win nothing. If they draft Howell for instance and he turns out OK we win nothing and Ron is eventually out. In the end it makes no difference.

 

Draft for ceiling. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Zim489

[MartinC]

10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

They just don't and they become 60% of your offense and cost a ****load to resign.

 

If we draft a (or sign) a QB who costs us a **** load to re sign in his next deal that will be a good problem to have.  Whatever his playing style or the system built around him.

[Bifflog]

Can he run 2012 RG3 offense?  We moved the farm to get up to 2 because we thought Griffin was more than that but we were wrong, would we trade 11 overall for exactly 2012 and maybe a better slide?

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Irrelevant. If Willis bombs out Ron is gone and we win nothing. If they draft Howell for instance and he turns out OK we win nothing and Ron is eventually out. In the end it makes no difference.

 

Draft for ceiling. 

We all get it. You don't like Ron and all of your comments lead to that. It's getting annoying.

4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

If we draft a (or sign) a QB who costs us a **** load to re sign in his next deal that will be a good problem to have.  Whatever his playing style or the system built around him.

It's not a good problem for the Ravens currently. He now looks like an injury waiting to happen and might miss entire seasons consistently.

[Zim489]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We all get it. You don't like Ron and all of your comments lead to that. It's getting annoying.

This isn’t about Ron. This is about QB. The floor of a QB is totally irrelevant. It’s great or bust now. Just how the position is moving 

[MartinC]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

It's not a good problem for the Ravens currently. He now looks like an injury waiting to happen and might miss entire seasons consistently.

 

Would you swap our QB situation for the Ravens? I would.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

This isn’t about Ron. This is about QB. The floor of a QB is totally irrelevant. It’s great or bust now. Just how the position is moving 

4 sentences, 2 about Ron. Half your post mentioned him and the entire post was about him. 

 

Go post in the "rons hotseat" thread and leave that **** out of the QB thread.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

talk about timing..i'm watching a dvr'd gmfb from this a.m. and mikerob is going to to a focus piece on willis, saying he may be his top pick at qb

 

i should prob wait until i actually see it to feel enthused 😁 

 

Logan Paulson said a lot of good things about Willis when he was on with B. Mitch and Finley an hour ago. Also said not sure where theTurbsky hype is coming from. 

[Koolblue13]

Just now, MartinC said:

 

Would you swap our QB situation for the Ravens? I would.

Probably, but they have a better back up than we do starter. They also have a system in place for the starter and back up. I don't think I'd want to see $50 million or more of our cap ride the exercise bike instead of play football though. I think they're in a tough place.

 

Sometimes it's better to be at zero I think.

[Zim489]

16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

4 sentences, 2 about Ron. Half your post mentioned him and the entire post was about him. 

 

Go post in the "rons hotseat" thread and leave that **** out of the QB thread.

Alright fine. We draft Willis and he busts. We don’t win anything. We draft a lower ceiling higher floor QB and he ends up being ok. We don’t win anything

 

draft for ceiling 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Alright fine. We draft Willis and he busts. We don’t win anything. We draft a lower ceiling higher floor QB and he ends up being ok. We don’t win anything

 

draft for ceiling 

Part of the issue is you can't definitively call guys a bust after one season.  Particularly a guy like Willis who most likely will take some time to grow into what you want.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Trubisky hype is coming from Trubisky's camp or the Bills who want a good comp pick back next year.

 

I still find it hard to believe this team went with 38 year old Ryan Fitzpatrick for a year for $10m when they could have had Trubisky for $4m.

 

Maybe we get Trubisky and the smoke is real, and I do think we probably end up with one of Winston, Mariota, Trubisky or Wentz. But those guys will be signed along with a QB in the draft.

 

If Willis and Corral go before pick #11, maybe we can trade down and get Pickett/Howell/Strong in the late 1st.

 

Or maybe we trade up to get Willis or Corral ahead of Panthers or Denver. And I'd be okay with that, since our veteran QB would be cheapish, not cost draft capital, and allow us to hit some holes in free agency so we are less reliant on retooling with early-round draft picks.