The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Boy do I not think it's going to matter because Gettleman and he will both be fired at the end of the year.  

 

OR Gettleman is fired and the new GM makes the call on Jones.

 

Though I'd really like to keep all 3 of those people right where they are....

 

I think Gettleman being fired is almost a given.  As for Judge, I recently read something from a national insider (forgetting whom) that Judge is safe and Mara loves him.  but will see. 

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I'd be pretty shocked if anyone in the Giants FO actually had a really good feeling about Daniel Jones going forward. He's just not that good, and it's pretty apparent after almost 3 seasons.

 

I remember after his rookie season when some people were going nuts and talking about "Danny Dimes" and how good he was. Some guy, I think he was from PFF but I can't remember exactly, brought up the film and the enormous number of passes Jones had that should have been picked off but weren't, and how he thought that would eventually catch up to him. People yelled and moaned and called him a hater. 

 

Seems he was right.

 

And yes, we clearly got the worse QB in the 2019 draft, but IMO it's fortunate that Haskins was so damn bad, because that let us cut ties with him quickly and start over. Jones has been juuuust good enough to give the Giants some hope, but not good enough to actually help them become a winner.

 

I didn't think its possible that Jones is on the table as the guy for next year.  So its probably a fantasy to assume otherwise, I agree.  But its a fun thought regardless since I hate the Giants.

[DWinzit]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Boy do I not think it's going to matter because Gettleman and he will both be fired at the end of the year.  

 

OR Gettleman is fired and the new GM makes the call on Jones.

 

Though I'd really like to keep all 3 of those people right where they are....

Sure would be great if they stayed together....thinking they should bring Garrett back too!

 

It is feeling like Judge will have one more year, Gettleman out and Jones will be there unless they move on a Wilson trade.

[method man]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

Sure would be great if they stayed together....thinking they should bring Garrett back too!

 

It is feeling like Judge will have one more year, Gettleman out and Jones will be there unless they move on a Wilson trade.

 

If Mara puts his foot down on giving Judge another year, that's a win. It will cull down the list of GM candidates for them as a good GM candidate would want to pick their own coach

[Skinsinparadise]

Forgot if was Bullock who charted it or it came from a beat guy, but I recall seeing somewhere they indeed have a big chunk of RPOs in the playbook.   Not much straight read option though.  Actually the first play Kyle Allen ran on Sunday was ironically RO.    Clearly Taylor doesn't seem to like to take off and run off of RPOs because that is an option in an RPO.  Kyle Allen took off in his RO play but who knows if Taylor would have?

 

Taylor has had a few plays in the last two games where it looked like he had a ton of daylight for a big run, where he was already 4-5 years upfield without a defender closing on him but instead of keep going on the ground, he flung the ball down the field.  All three of those plays were incompletions and they all looked like Taylor could have easily gotten at least 10 yards on the ground.

 

Different broadcasters in different games have said the coaches want to see Heinicke run more.  Rivera has said it multiple times.  Turner has said it, too.  I just find Taylor's reluctance to run a bit strange.  And I found it ironic that the first play Kyle Allen was in the game he took off running.  Taylor plays ballsy as for being willing to chuck the ball into coverage but IMO oddly plays a bit conservative when it comes to taking off and running. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/12/03/taylor-heinicke-confidence-washington-football/

The call was a run-pass option, with mirroring post routes by wide receivers Cam Sims and Terry McLaurin from the outside.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[KDawg]

10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Forgot if was Bullock who charted it or it came from a beat guy, but I recall seeing somewhere they indeed have a big chunk of RPOs in the playbook.   Not much straight read option though.  Actually the first play Kyle Allen ran on Sunday was ironically RO.    Clearly Taylor doesn't seem to like to take off and run off of RPOs because that is an option in an RPO.  Kyle Allen took off in his RO play but who knows if Taylor would have?

 

Taylor has had a few plays in the last two games where it looked like he had a ton of daylight for a big run, where he was already 4-5 years upfield without a defender closing on him but instead of keep going on the ground, he flung the ball down the field.  All three of those plays were incompletions and they all looked like Taylor could have easily gotten at least 10 yards on the ground.

 

Different broadcasters in different games have said the coaches want to see Heinicke run more.  Rivera has said it multiple times.  Turner has said it, too.  I just find Taylor's reluctance to run a bit strange.  And I found it ironic that the first play Kyle Allen was in the game he took off running.  Taylor plays ballsy as for being willing to chuck the ball into coverage but IMO oddly plays a bit conservative when it comes to taking off and running. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/12/03/taylor-heinicke-confidence-washington-football/

The call was a run-pass option, with mirroring post routes by wide receivers Cam Sims and Terry McLaurin from the outside.

How could Heinicke be 4-5 yards upfield and still throw the ball without a flag?

[Thinking Skins]

https://www.nfldraftdiamonds.com/2021/10/matt-corral-7/

 

That's an article on some behind the scenes work on Corral. I like the article. it goes into his history and basically thinks that its a problem that he doesn't like "privilege". If that's his biggest knock, and not shoplifting or partying or being lazy, I can easily get onboard his train. 

 

That said, I was trying to find some pro comparisons and I saw Baker Mayfield and Zach Wilson. I was afraid that he might become another Danny Dimes but that seems to not be the case. 

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

How could Heinicke be 4-5 yards upfield and still throw the ball without a flag?

 

up field from where he was recovering on the scramble, one of those plays was a great dodge where it looked like Crosby had him down and yet Heinicke escaped.  I don't mean past the line of scrimmage.   The plays I am talking about aren't obscure.  We all watched those games.   Others seem to know which plays I am referring to.  so sorry I should have explained it better.   But the point is Heinicke had daylight but choose to throw.  

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

https://www.nfldraftdiamonds.com/2021/10/matt-corral-7/

 

That's an article on some behind the scenes work on Corral. I like the article. it goes into his history and basically thinks that its a problem that he doesn't like "privilege". If that's his biggest knock, and not shoplifting or partying or being lazy, I can easily get onboard his train. 

 

That said, I was trying to find some pro comparisons and I saw Baker Mayfield and Zach Wilson. I was afraid that he might become another Danny Dimes but that seems to not be the case. 

 

 

I hated Danny Dimes before that draft, maybe too much hate in retrospect.  . 

 

Forgetting that Jones hasn't been a hot QB, he also doesn't remind me stylistically much of Corral aside from they are both tough in the pocket.  

Edited December 16, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I hated Danny Dimes before that draft, maybe too much hate in retrospect.  . 

 

Forgetting that Jones hasn't been a hot QB, he also doesn't remind me stylistically much of Corral aside from they are both tough in the pocket. 

I remember this and i also remember your like ?love? for Corral. Thats why I started to question the difference. Its interesting that I'm seeing Wilson as a comp for him because weren't you high on Wilson? I don't want Corral to turn into Jones, but I don't really know what makes Jones Jones. I know he's mobile and has an arm, but makes bad decisions. But is that going to a #1 read when he should have gone to a 2? staying in the pocket when he should scramble? floating it when he should zip it? 

 

I'm trying to get into these QBs more and the ones I want to study right now are Corral, Howell and Ridder. I think I like all three of these guys but hopefully next time I get on the treadmill I will be able to find a youtube of one of their games or at least somebody analyzing their tape so I can get opinions on their play myself. 

 

One of the reasons i've gotten out of the draft talk is because I used to want a certain player and the ones I liked we'd never get. Its interesting because I see a change in philosophy in us going for more athletic guys now and those are the guys I used to like to look for in the drafts (different approach from simple best player available, I was looking for something like best athlete available) but we never seemed to go for that. It'll be interesting to see what the draft looks like this coming year. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I remember this and i also remember your like ?love? for Corral. Thats why I started to question the difference.

 

Yes I do like Corral, not sure about love him, but I like him a lot.   The way I saw Daniel Jones predraft was that he was a dude who was mostly accurate in the flat but not so much outside the flat.    Safe-conservative throws.  Yet even though he plays it safe the dude turns the ball over way too much -- INTs and fumbles but especially fumbles.  As as a dude, I thought he had no personality at all -- didn't hit me as a leader.   The main things I liked about him is his accuracy in the flat and his toughness in the pocket.  On the aggregate i wanted no part of him.  I fisted pumped my kids when the Giants drafted him.

 

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

Its interesting that I'm seeing Wilson as a comp for him because weren't you high on Wilson? 

 

 

I did like Zach.  He wasn't a guy though i spent a lot of time on once I realized he'd be out of reach of a trade up.  I was high on Fields and to a lesser extent Mac Jones and spent more time on them and talked about them a lot more.  The similarities IMO between Corral and Zach is they both move laterally-side to side a lot and make off platform throws, often rolling in the pocket and on the move.  Both favor the right side.    I think Corral is a slightly better runner than Zach.  They both have strong arms and throw good deep balls but Zach IMO has the stronger arm.  I think Corral is more like Mac than Zach in one sense which is they are both really good manipulators as for how they use their body language and ball handling to misdirect defenses.

 

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 I don't want Corral to turn into Jones, but I don't really know what makes Jones Jones. I know he's mobile and has an arm, but makes bad decisions. But is that going to a #1 read when he should have gone to a 2? staying in the pocket when he should scramble? floating it when he should zip it? 

 

 

I really don't get the correlation between the two unless the point is both are white dudes who can run?  IMO some of what I didn't like about Jones has shown up to his NFL game.  That is, his accuracy can be shaky aside from the easier throws in the flat and his propensity to turn it over.  He has also been remarkably unclutch.  The one thing I'll give him where he's better IMO than college is that he's willing to take chances throwing the ball down the field.  In college, I recall saying he's an Alex Smith (super conservative) but with turnovers.   Alex's bread and butter as we know is to avoid mistakes.  Also Alex has a personality.  Jones has very little personality to him.

 

Matt Corral as a dude seems like the opposite of Daniel Jones.  Matt if anything might have too much personality, too fiery perhaps at times.  Jones subdued persona makes Eli look like the life of the party.  Corral IMO has a stronger arm, throws a better deep ball than Jones.    Corral is clutch. They IMO are totally different flavors. I get the Zach analogies to an extent.  Daniel Jones I don't get at all aside from they are both white guys who can run and are tough in the pocket.

 

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

One of the reasons i've gotten out of the draft talk is because I used to want a certain player and the ones I liked we'd never get. 

 lol, i know what you mean.  I had a nice run going for 3 years in a row where they took some of my favorite pet players in the draft.  That streak though ended last year.  They did take some players I liked but none of them were my guys so to speak who I loved.  Maybe Cosmi but he was a stevemcqueen guy in a big way before I got into him and i wouldn't say he's a guy I pushed a lot but I did push some, he was the guy I wanted in the 2nd.  But the guys I really loved like JOK, Elijah Moore and others they didn't take.  And it pains me to see some of them off to hot starts elsewhere. 😢

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

7 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

https://www.nfldraftdiamonds.com/2021/10/matt-corral-7/

 

That's an article on some behind the scenes work on Corral. I like the article. it goes into his history and basically thinks that its a problem that he doesn't like "privilege". If that's his biggest knock, and not shoplifting or partying or being lazy, I can easily get onboard his train. 

 

That said, I was trying to find some pro comparisons and I saw Baker Mayfield and Zach Wilson. I was afraid that he might become another Danny Dimes but that seems to not be the case. 

 

Yeah that's kind of an odd one. Just off the top of my head I'd have a hard time seeing it be some huge issue, even though the guy who wrote the article calls it a major red flag. It don't really get the feeling from reading that that Corral has a problem with rich people and that would somehow impact how he plays. The vast majority of NFL players didn't come from money; usually it's the opposite. That being said, it's probably something I'd ask about if I were a GM. We've seen things that didn't "seem" like big red flags end up being major issues.

[KDawg]

What does him not liking "privilege" mean?

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

What does him not liking "privilege" mean?

 

From what I saw in the article it seems he has in the past had issues with rich kids who come from money and their "privilege".

[Warhead36]

Its kinda weird because the best QBs in the league tend to come from privileged backgrounds.

[petey hodge]

Post moved to Hive thread

 

where it's sure to get blow torched.

 

but oh well.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by petey hodge

[Thinking Skins]

@Skinsinparadise, this is more of a running joke than any hopes of him being my savior but I notice that Nick Mullins is scheduled to start for the Browns 

 

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2021/12/qb-nick-mullens-expected-to-start-for-browns-on-saturday

 

I'm rooting for him. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Thinking Skins

[Skinsinparadise]

42 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

@Skinsinparadise, this is more of a running joke than any hopes of him being my savior but I notice that Nick Mullins is scheduled to start for the Browns 

 

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2021/12/qb-nick-mullens-expected-to-start-for-browns-on-saturday

 

I'm rooting for him. 

 

lol, I see you as the Nick Mullins guy because of all your mentions of him.  And lol also as the Case Keenum guy who ironically alas got COVID and hence Mullins would play.  

 

My point on all these guys is lots of QBs have looked good in spurts.  Short samples.  heck some even did it for a full season.  Can that be sustained though?  A nice 3-4 game run could be had by a ton of Qbs over the years who ultimately flame out along with the handful of one year wonders.  Heck we are about to play against an interesting test case this Sunday in Minshew.  Minshew was the belle of the ball years back when he had a nice run.  Then he fell back to earth.  Now he's trying to come back.  Will see.

 

As much as the QB ride has been miserable here, we've had the same ride as plenty of other teams of short-term QB success mania.   We have gotten at least some of that party at the position.  I think the dude most forget about was Todd Collins.  I recall even he got some hype for a brief spell.  Hey he was just never given a chance.  He knows Saunders playbook like the back of his hand.  He's a gamer.  He led us to the playoffs.  On and on.  It peters out eventually but I recall the different phases where people were jazzed about our QBs for a few good games or a stint of some kind. 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Some rumors today about Derek Carr might be on the trading block this off season.  They rumors aren;t ultra serious but its a fun thought for me anyway.   

 

I talked to some Raider fans on the way to the game and back, traveled on a hotel shuttle with them.

 

It feels almost a bit like the Kirk vibe with them before Kirk left here.   He's good but not great and after awhile it rubs them the wrong way that he can't get put a team on his shoulders like an Aaron Rodgers.  On the other hand, he does seem to be their big ticket draw among their home fans so could they afford to just let that go?  I doubt it.  The hope would be they hire a dumb new HC who just wants to tear it all down.

 

But from what I've seen, I'd take him.  Carr isn't a top 10 QB IMO.  But he's in that 10-14 range slam dunk.    I wouldn't give a boatload.  But I'd definitely give up what they were willing to give up for Stafford.  I like Stafford a hair over Carr but Carr is a bit younger. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

I wouldn't do it but some team will probably give up two #1s for Derek Carr. QB value is just insane. A team like the Steelers that is in win now mode and needs a QB could do it.

[Koolblue13]

I'd give up a lot for Carr. He's definitely in that 10-14 range and over the next few years as some of the top guys retire, he'll move into that top 5 range hopefully. He's 30 (31 next season), so plenty of football left.

 

I'd still want to double down and try and get a top QB this year too if possible. If Howell drops to the late first try and go get him, or grab Strong or Zappe in the second.

 

But yeah, I'd be all in on Carr. 2 1rsts and Sweat.

[Thinking Skins]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'd give up a lot for Carr. He's definitely in that 10-14 range and over the next few years as some of the top guys retire, he'll move into that top 5 range hopefully. He's 30 (31 next season), so plenty of football left.

 

I'd still want to double down and try and get a top QB this year too if possible. If Howell drops to the late first try and go get him, or grab Strong or Zappe in the second.

 

But yeah, I'd be all in on Carr. 2 1rsts and Sweat.

I don't want Carr because he's old. We'd be giving up  a lot for a guy who is at his ceiling and and only going to get worse with time, ala McNabb / Smith / Brunell. Sure Carr has better stats than them (minus McNabb) but its more of what I'd expect from Snyder. I know I made the joke earlier but I'd rather go with an unproven backup like Kyle Schumer or Kyle Allen or heck even Mike White. Yes they are worse QBs but at least they have something in the talent pool and are on the younger side so we can have them as they reach their ceiling. And if they flame out we just get a higher draft pick and start over again. Carr would be the opposite of many have called for in this thread, a ticket to mediocrity that costs a lot. 

[mbws]

WE'LL SEE. 

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

I don't want Carr because he's old. We'd be giving up  a lot for a guy who is at his ceiling and and only going to get worse with time, ala McNabb / Smith / Brunell. Sure Carr has better stats than them (minus McNabb) but its more of what I'd expect from Snyder. I know I made the joke earlier but I'd rather go with an unproven backup like Kyle Schumer or Kyle Allen or heck even Mike White. Yes they are worse QBs but at least they have something in the talent pool and are on the younger side so we can have them as they reach their ceiling. And if they flame out we just get a higher draft pick and start over again. Carr would be the opposite of many have called for in this thread, a ticket to mediocrity that costs a lot. 

He's only 30 with his best football ahead of him. If we want to capitalize on the talent we have now, we need a QB. I also don't think Ron wants to watch another season flush down the drain because of a turd at the position. We've got the team to compete, just not the QB.

 

Trade for Carr, sign Maye to play FS and we're a solid playoff team next year.

[Est.1974]

The QB Thread - How would you fix the missing link for this WEEK

[Thinking Skins]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He's only 30 with his best football ahead of him. If we want to capitalize on the talent we have now, we need a QB. I also don't think Ron wants to watch another season flush down the drain because of a turd at the position. We've got the team to compete, just not the QB.

 

Trade for Carr, sign Maye to play FS and we're a solid playoff team next year.

Exactly, he's 30. He's at his ceiling. He may maintain it for 3-4 years but what you've seen is what you're going to get. He's not gonna become the comeback kid or the gunslinger or suddenly a mobile master. I say pass.