The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Command The 414]

Also, the last I speak of this as we can all have our opinions which makes this a even better forum and makes life exciting imho… disagreeing doesn’t make us bad, it just says we have our opinions but we are still friends and fans of our beloved Commanders

 

here it goes, I don’t think we should always hold something against a great or even good player in any sport because he or she are surrounded by other talent, in the case im talking about, I’m a huge Jared Goff fan, I think the dude is a very good QB (elite no, but you don’t have to be plus how many elite QB’s play in the NFL) but that shows his team is doing the right thing, the Lions FO has done the necessary things to make them a better team and surrounding talent only makes that possible.  As @warhead36 stated I would take Goff a 100 days out of 100 over Dak and Tua, and that’s not saying I don’t think they’re good QB’s cause I do think they’re both good QB’s… but the narrative we fall into when it comes to saying this guy stinks, or this guy is a bum or this guy is only what he is cause of the talent around him imho isn’t validating or warranted… 

 

sorry for the rant… have a awesome day everyone….man I love this Forum 👍🏻

Edited January 29 by Command The 414

[The Consigliere]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean you did have QBs who had mobility like Young, Favre, Elway, etc. But like I said their mobility was a bonus and was used primarily to create more throwing opportunities. They weren't overly reliant on it to the point where if they didn't have it, their passing game would fall apart.

Responding to you and Woodpecker, apologies for not quoting both: Part of this seems to depend upon how you classify the QB's, and part of this is whether you think causation is in play. I would include Wilson as a runner, even if he wasn't a runner in the same vein as Vick or Lamar. I also tend to think the QB's stories are complicated. Is Josh Allen the reason the Bills missed the Super Bowl? Or is the Chiefs carving them up for a td across 80 yards of field in just 13 seconds (or was it a field goal? I can't remember). Lamar? I don't know, i tend to think it's randomness, injuries etc, but it could be him. He certainly has not brought his best in the playoffs. Hurts was the reason they had a chance to take home a ring last year, so I certainly don't put '22 on him. Field's simply isn't good. And Kyler? Well, the Cardinals have at best been a borderline .500 team, on either side of it, or worse since he arrived, so that wasn't on him either.

 

Its weird. The best QB's in the NFL, tier wise, seem pretty clear, a few of them can scramble like Mahomes, a few of them can do more than that, like Allen, and Lamar, and Fields, but generally the story is really about the team isn't it, and the only running QB who actually has a team that should be doing more than it has would be Lamar and Hurts this year, in Lamar's case, that's a weird team wide problem. They seem to have had that problem for nearly 15 years running at this point, they choke every time they get close. In Hurts case, the team imploded in a way you rarely, ever seem teams implode. I don't know what that was about, but it sounds like chemistry is the problem. In Dallas, its just hilarious. they turned the keys of a top 5 roster in the league over to a dumb--- who squandered a decade of Aaron Rodgers, and are surprised they aren't contending? Seriously? 

 

But anyway, I tend to think, you win or not, based on the team+QB you have. How good is that QB, how effective is that QB, and how good is that team around him, in the moment. For the most part, the bulk of the best teams have not had running QB's, just scrambling ones. Is this a causation thing? Not to me. I've seen a ton of QB's who could run and scramble win, from Elway, to Young to Montana to Theismann to Wilson and beyond, so to me, its an asset. For the teams that haven't won it, with a bit of more elite runners, the build was typically flawed (Atlanta and Vick, RGIII and the Redskins (for 1 season), or in Lamar's case, it's a system wide problem. The Ravens didn't win with Flacco either and some of their chokes were totally epic too (especially the FG miss one against the Patriots in I think the 2011 season). 

 

You may be right about the scrambler thing mattering more, but I think if we get the right build with a runner like Lamar, we'll see it. Heck, I think if Dobbins and and Andrews don't go down, the Ravens are already in the Super Bowl, but hte Ravens issue all along, always, has been a lack of high end WR's on offense limiting their vertical game. Ironically, Zay Flowers, who helped throw away yesterday's game, is a rare example of a WR pick they haven't blown. He's legit good, just not mega elite, he's gonna be a solid weapon going forward, a top 20-30 WR, but he's never gonna be a #1, mega elite like AJ Brown, Lamb, Jamar Chase etc. But at least he'll help the build. 

[wit33]

28 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

He's still in the category of guys who could throw from the pocket and had athleticism, not necessarily someone whose legs were the primary weapon. He just happens to have lost most of... pretty much everything. 

No, he’s below average and always has been below average in the pocket. 

Edited January 29 by wit33

[clskinsfan]

 

[mistertim]

Comparing Russel Wilson to Lamar Jackson is dumb. Wilson was always a passer first, who would use his athleticism and scrambling ability sometimes to get yards, but who usually used it to buy time outside of the pocket and get the ball to his players downfield. Jackson is a runner first, passer second. Once his running is either mitigated or taken away, his passing becomes mediocre at best. Which is exactly what happened yesterday.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I honestly cannot wait for the chaos that is going to ensue after Daneils' workouts.

 

"Dude literally jumped over the goal post...like it was a hurdle.....

[Warhead36]

5 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I honestly cannot wait for the chaos that is going to ensue after Daneils' workouts.

 

"Dude literally jumped over the goal post...like it was a hurdle.....

My dream is our FO stays steadfast with Maye but we convince the world we love Daniels and can fleece the Pats into a pick swap so they can take him. We get the best of both worlds, Maye and some extra picks to play with.

16 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Comparing Russel Wilson to Lamar Jackson is dumb. Wilson was always a passer first, who would use his athleticism and scrambling ability sometimes to get yards, but who usually used it to buy time outside of the pocket and get the ball to his players downfield. Jackson is a runner first, passer second. Once his running is either mitigated or taken away, his passing becomes mediocre at best. Which is exactly what happened yesterday.

Yep exactly. And that's my fear with Daniels(and prospects of that style). And that isn't even factoring in the increased injury risk(especially with Daniels's railthin frame).

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I honestly cannot wait for the chaos that is going to ensue after Daneils' workouts.

 

"Dude literally jumped over the goal post...like it was a hurdle.....

 

"It's just truly unfortunate that a stiff breeze then proceeded to blow him away. They're apparently still searching the tree tops for him"

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Malik got a bunch of hype because 1. People are crazy 2. His arm. Everyone was raving that he had a massive arm and got fooled again, just like with Zach Wilson, because of his arm strength at his pro day. 

 

In reality teams didn't actually buy or fall for it though because his Liberty tape was not good and they played nobody. He was the 3rd QB taken after both Picket and Ridder (who also stunk) and he was taken in the 3rd round so...teams never fell for that hype

 

 

I would add, it was a horrible class, and no matter what, generally, QB's get lifted, at least to the top of the 2nd/late 1st. 

He did play a few teams:

'21:

Syracuse (good raw stats)

Ole Miss (awful game)

 

'20: 

@ Syracuse: Okay

@ Va Tech: Excellent

Bowl Game vs Undefeated Coastal Carolina (he sucked, but they upset Coastal Carolina)

 

So he had a couple of games on his resume, basically aorund 5, and he was good or very good in 2 of them, okay in 1, and stunk in 2. 

 

I can't speak to his tape, but I was surprised at how far he fell in a bad draft. Pickett was an obvious stupid selection the whole time (if you suck until your 4th or 5th year, you're almost never good), and then you had to sort through guys like Corral (too small?), Ridder (zero chance, maybe a backup), the ruined kness of my local UNR guy, Malik Willis or Howell (and Rattler who was so bad, he stayed in school and transferred). I always assumed Willis, Howell, and Corral would be 2nd rounders based upon upside, since all 3 had it, but nobody should have gone in the first other than maybe Howell, late, or Willis based on raw tools (and again, I didn't watch tape). Nobody had any business in the top 10-20. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

By the way, I find it utterly impossible to evaluate college QBs at this point. Everyone runs the same one-read offense in a sport that could only be more tilted in the offense's favor if they forced defenses to play with ten guys.

 

People with opinions on this subject fascinate me.

 

How do you do it?

 

Actually, don't tell me. I don't care.

Edited January 29 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Number 44]

8 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

My dream is our FO stays steadfast with Maye but we convince the world we love Daniels and can fleece the Pats into a pick swap so they can take him. We get the best of both worlds, Maye and some extra picks to play with.

Yeah, that's the ticket.  No chance that would backfire.

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

The only QBs in the AFC to go to a Super Bowl since 2004 (thats 20 years folks)

 

Tom Brady
Patrick Mahomes
Peyton Manning
Joe Burrow

Joe Flacco

A reminder of why people should take it a little easy on Lamar (you forgot Ben Roth). The Ravens produced a boat load of generational defenses the past 23 years, and Lamar has only been around for five of them, and they made the super bowl only once, since the 2000, everyone league wide sucks season. 

[gooseneck]

2 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

By the way, I find it utterly impossible to evaluate college QBs at this point. Everyone runs the same one-read offense in a sport that could only be more tilted in the offense's favor if they forced defensives to play with ten guys.

 

People with opinions on this subject fascinate me.

 

How do you do it?

 

Actually, don't tell me. I don't care.

My source is a Quake doctor in the Philippines.  

[wit33]

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Comparing Russel Wilson to Lamar Jackson is dumb.

 

 

Your position on Lamar coming into the season was dumb. 
 

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Wilson was always a passer first, who would use his athleticism and scrambling ability sometimes to get yards, but who usually used it to buy time outside of the pocket and get the ball to his players downfield. Jackson is a runner first, passer second. Once his running is either mitigated or taken away, his passing becomes mediocre at best. Which is exactly what happened yesterday.

Wilson's superpower lies in his legs. The early career comparisons hold somemerit, considering that his legs were the primary factor contributing to his impact during the initial years of his rookie contract. 
 

Wilson possesses an elite deep ball, but he tends to be below average in most other aspects of throwing the football. The game plan remains consistent for both him (when Wilson was willing to run) and similar quarterbacks – keep them in the pocket and challenge them to throw from there. This scouting report has been a constant throughout Wilson's entire career. Dude is below average from the pocket, as is Jackson. 

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Lamar wasn't bad yesterday. I think the play calling was desperate and cost them. You're the top running team and on 3rd and 1 you're throwing 30 yard passes? It was just dumb.

 

They also need to sell out this draft and move up for a true WR1 or sign Mike Evans or both.

Evans is too old. Same class as OBJ and Allen Robinson. Don't pay for his elite past. They could trade up, though it's a nice WR draft, they might be able to sit. The problem for them is the tier break will happen well ahead of their break, and the next tier is kind of clumpy and spotty with significantly lower floors. I wonder if they could trade for a team that's kind of trapped, or just go after Tee Higgins in FA or something, but Higgins isn't an explosion guy, that's more Metcalf, Garrett Wilson etc. Hmmm, wonder what they do, minor tweaks tend to be their moves. Not a lot they can do to move the needle unless they really want to take a huge swing on a FA RB (always a mistake), or trade for a WR. 

[ThatNFLChick]

13 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I would add, it was a horrible class, and no matter what, generally, QB's get lifted, at least to the top of the 2nd/late 1st. 

He did play a few teams:

'21:

Syracuse (good raw stats)

Ole Miss (awful game)

 

'20: 

@ Syracuse: Okay

@ Va Tech: Excellent

Bowl Game vs Undefeated Coastal Carolina (he sucked, but they upset Coastal Carolina)

 

So he had a couple of games on his resume, basically aorund 5, and he was good or very good in 2 of them, okay in 1, and stunk in 2. 

 

I can't speak to his tape, but I was surprised at how far he fell in a bad draft. Pickett was an obvious stupid selection the whole time (if you suck until your 4th or 5th year, you're almost never good), and then you had to sort through guys like Corral (too small?), Ridder (zero chance, maybe a backup), the ruined kness of my local UNR guy, Malik Willis or Howell (and Rattler who was so bad, he stayed in school and transferred). I always assumed Willis, Howell, and Corral would be 2nd rounders based upon upside, since all 3 had it, but nobody should have gone in the first other than maybe Howell, late, or Willis based on raw tools (and again, I didn't watch tape). Nobody had any business in the top 10-20. 

 

I think Corral likely went 1st or 2nd round had he not gotten injured. Remember he fot injured in the bowl game and therefore couldn't participate in the combine, senior bowl, nothing and was barely healthy at his pro day (he had just been allowed to throw/run again I believe)

[UK Skins]

3 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

Not a lot they can do to move the needle unless they really want to take a huge swing on a FA RB (always a mistake), or trade for a WR. 

Didn't I see Dalvin Cook playing for them? Not much better out there than him.

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Your position on Lamar coming into the season was dumb. 

 

My position on Lamar coming into the season was that he wouldn't be a SB winner and once you were able to take his legs away he'd devolve and be mediocre.

 

How did that work out?

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Yes the playcalling was atrocious and made no sense. 

 

But the same thing that doomed Lamar is what doomed Josh Allen - TRYING TO PLAY HERO BALL! Both had a chance to tie the game and both decided to play hero ball and put the ball in harms way instead of just taking what the defense gave them. Lamar threw into triple coverage forcing a ball to Flowes and Josh Allen had multiple checkdowns in front of his face but decided to try to force the ball into the endzone twice and screwed the team. 

One of those Allen throws was impacted by him getting hit as he released the pass, and Lamar has the team 1 score away from tying it, if Flowers doesn't fumble. The Chiefs easily could have lost to the Bills the same way the Ravens lost to the Chiefs-by a catastrophic fumble as they were about to put the game away in the chiefs case, and make it a one drive game in the Ravens. Instead, the Bills imploded and the Chiefs didn't, and for the Ravens, it simply occurred to late in the game for them to make good the way the chiefs did. You may be right, and to be sure, Allen and Lamar have an extensive record now of not making plays when it counts, of not finishing games. But sometimes the other team ends up helping or hurting you too: The Bengals dropped a game clinching interception moments before Montana finished the drive in '88-'89, The Bills didn't do anything with the gift the Chiefs gave them with that late fumble. Sometimes things just happen. Eli Manning threw an interception before helmet catch that was dropped. People don't remember Samuel's drop anymore. A lot of this the random chaos of 4th quarters, and its up to us whether we think Montana and Mahomes and Brady win because of magic, and greatness or because as Brady learned against the Giants, sometimes you get the breaks, and sometimes you don't (dropped pick, helmet catch/escape, near hail mary completed). It's probably a little bit of all of it. Eventually when you nearly always find a way to win, or lose, it may say something, or it may just be a product of randomness and small sample size. I'm not sure. But we all prefer the simple answers and narratives of genius talents, because we enjoy watching their genius, even if some or a lot of it is more randomness and small sample size realities than anything. 

[Hooper]

18 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

By the way, I find it utterly impossible to evaluate college QBs at this point. Everyone runs the same one-read offense in a sport that could only be more tilted in the offense's favor if they forced defenses to play with ten guys.

 

This. 100 percent. It is so hard.  Most of the time the plays are being sent in from the sidelines. And they're in shotgun all the time.  It's nuts.

 

 

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I think they can win with him because their organizational culture is so strong. You got an elite weapon at QB and a franchise that can draft and develop talent as well as anyone.

 

Keep your window open and keep taking shots and hope one year everything breaks through for you.

 

Remember people said Young and Elway couldn't win either. Eventually they did.

And Super Bowls have been won by guys like Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, Jim Plunkett, the totally inept version of Ben Roth from 2004 and Brad Johnson to name a few. Sometimes we get a bit carried away w/how instrumental we view a QB's genius as the single cause of everything, especially in this day and age when they are so important. There are some real, total --- QB's that made it all the way to the Super Bowl over the years and had ---- all to do with any of it: guys like David Woodley, Vince Ferragamo, Rex Grossman etc. Sometimes a team carries a QB, sometimes a QB carries a team, but mostly its somewhere in-between, and increasingly, in recent years, more QB associated but not totally. 

[wit33]

16 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

My position on Lamar coming into the season was that he wouldn't be a SB winner and once you were able to take his legs away he'd devolve and be mediocre.

 

How did that work out?

SB winner lol 

 

Continue to move the goalposts while he likely secures his second MVP. 
 

 

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

SB winner lol 

 

Continue to move the goalposts while he likely secures his second MVP. 
 

 

Yes, I said very clearly that I thought he wasn't worth the money and wouldn't win a SB. I still don't think he will. He tends not to show up in big games and, as I said, once you take away his legs he's in serious trouble because he's only a mediocre passer without that. Imagine what will happen once he loses a step or two as he gets a little older. It will be even easier to shut him down.

 

And who cares if he wins MVP if he never does anything with it? He can put it on his mantle and look at it as he's watching the Super Bowl at home.

[Warhead36]

There is still a window for Jackson to win one. He's only 27 so he should still maintain his mobility for another ~3 years or so.

[wit33]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yes, I said very clearly that I thought he wasn't worth the money and wouldn't win a SB. I still don't think he will. He tends not to show up in big games and, as I said, once you take away his legs he's in serious trouble because he's only a mediocre passer without that. Imagine what will happen once he loses a step or two as he gets a little older. It will be even easier to shut him down.

 

And who cares if he wins MVP if he never does anything with it? He can put it on his mantle and look at it as he's watching the Super Bowl at home.

 

The notion of "Super Bowl or bust" doesn't entirely capture your perspectives expressed over the last couple of seasons, but that's something for you to address.

 

Relying on a Super Bowl as a crux weakens about 95% of debates to support your viewpoint.

 

Disregarding an MVP is notable; it seems there are blinders on when it comes to evaluating Jackson.