The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[NoCalMike]

2 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Pretty much.  The theory of Wentz racking up big gainers to our receivers, of fielding an explosive offense that could result in leads (leads our D could take advantage of) sounds great.  Trying that behind this line though, or asking him instead to make quick reads/execute a primarily dink and dunk offense (with deeper stuff mixed in)… seems like a terrible idea.

The oline has improved, but IMO it’s gone from atrocious to pretty bad.  Now if Taylor (assuming he remains the starter) plays poorly against Houston and/or Atlanta, maybe they give it another go with Carson.  And who knows, maybe it works out.  I’ve maintained that the time off and chance to evaluate how TH runs the offense - the good and the bad - could be a big help for Wentz.  But again, the oline is still pretty poor, so I think putting him in is asking for failure.

 

While I agree the O-line hasn't improved a ton at pass blocking, I think the run game working more and/or the emphasizing of it, the commitment to it has helped the passing game immensely in both how defenses are scheming and how it sets up opportunities in the passing game.  The fact that the defense doesn't know if a run or pass is coming on a 3rd & 4 is a big advantage.   That is why I am saying that if Wentz returns, I wouldn't expect Turner to suddenly decide to go away from the run game, on the contrary I think the run game will set up even more opportunities for play action where the big play potential is there and is likely there with Heinicke, but not capitalized on enough. 

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

While I agree the O-line hasn't improved a ton at pass blocking, I think the run game working more and/or the emphasizing of it, the commitment to it has helped the passing game immensely in both how defenses are scheming and how it sets up opportunities in the passing game.  The fact that the defense doesn't know if a run or pass is coming on a 3rd & 4 is a big advantage.   That is why I am saying that if Wentz returns, I wouldn't expect Turner to suddenly decide to go away from the run game, on the contrary I think the run game will set up even more opportunities for play action where the big play potential is there and is likely there with Heinicke, but not capitalized on enough. 

49 runs and an average of 3.2 yards per carry isn't exactly what I'd call "working"

[Zim489]

8 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

While I agree the O-line hasn't improved a ton at pass blocking, I think the run game working more and/or the emphasizing of it, the commitment to it has helped the passing game immensely in both how defenses are scheming and how it sets up opportunities in the passing game.  The fact that the defense doesn't know if a run or pass is coming on a 3rd & 4 is a big advantage.   That is why I am saying that if Wentz returns, I wouldn't expect Turner to suddenly decide to go away from the run game, on the contrary I think the run game will set up even more opportunities for play action where the big play potential is there and is likely there with Heinicke, but not capitalized on enough. 

The ypc has gone down with Taylor but there’s more commitment to it. 

[NoCalMike]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

49 runs and an average of 3.2 yards per carry isn't exactly what I'd call "working"

 

But it is, statistically. It isn't flashy, but if you get 3 yards on 1st and 2nd down over and over, you are setup with 3rd & shortish.   If they were instead rushing for 3 on 1st down, then incomplete pass on 2nd down or a sack.....changes everything.

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

49 runs and an average of 3.2 yards per carry isn't exactly what I'd call "working"

The times that this has happened in the 2000s has to be counted on one hand. The hand being JPPs. 

[Going Commando]

34 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Hurts has played at an MVP level and Cousins has been a fringe top 10-12 ish QB for the last few years now. I'll give you Garppolo though but the 49ers roster is absolutely loaded.

 

Hurts has been an MVP caliber leader, and he is an outstanding run threat, but he is not a very good passer right now, especially from the pocket.  He's probably lower half of the NFL as a passer, and TBH, I thought Heinicke looked better than him in the passing game last night, and I don't think it's a reach to say Taylor is a better pocket passer than him right now.  But what the Eagles do have is a dominant OL and a full panoply of playmakers at WR and TE, and a great coach who has built a significant part of their offense around the special trait that Hurts brings to the table--powerful inside running.  Then they pair that with an elite pass defense and voila, powerhouse team that is championship contender with a very limited passer at QB.

 

IMO Cousins is definitely a better passer than Hurts, but Hurts is probably a better leader and better football player.  Regardless, neither of these dudes are even close to as good and dominant as the elite QBs of the league--Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Brady.  Nor are they close to that second tier of QB of Jackson, Herbert, Murray, and Burrow.  But they don't need to be, because Team > than QB and outside of the incredible and anomalous careers of Tom Brady and Joe Montana, having the best QBs of their generation doesn't guarantee you championships.  You might get one, hopefully two at some point in their long careers, and only when the team around them is dominant and fully built too.

 

You can win a championship with a Matt Stafford or Matt Ryan or Kirk Cousins or Eli Manning.  Someone who is good enough and holds the job down and provides the necessary toughness and leadership to pilot your team to the Super Bowl, but who isn't even close to being the best player on their own teams.  Our team has got some bonafide studs on it now, and some leaders who have come into their own over the past three years.  We just need someone durable and steady with great leadership qualities to come in here and hold the QB job down.

[DJHJR86]

I saw some comparisons to Alex Smith and Taylor Heinicke.  The Alex Smith formula was if you held the opposing team to 17 points or fewer, they would win.  They never won a game that Alex Smith started where the opposition scored 18+.  I was curious how the other quarterbacks under Rivera have performed in these situations.  Here's their records as starters when the opposing team scores 18+ points.

 

Dwayne Haskins: 0-5

Alex Smith: 0-1

Kyle Allen: 0-3

Ryan Fitzpatrick: 0-1

Carson Wentz: 1-4

Taylor Heinicke: 6-8

 

Heinicke has been the only starting quarterback to win more than 1 game.  So I do think there is something about the team playing differently with Smith or Heinicke.  But I think it's obvious that Smith was the safer player than Heinicke.  

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

I'd argue McLaurin is elite. But beyond that, I agree. We don't have elite talent outside of Allen/Payne and McLaurin

 

Chase has elite talent, he just needs to get healthy and put it all together on the field.  And I think he will. 

 

Montez and Gibby are elite athletes with a couple flaws/limitations in the way they see the game, but they have proven that they have the ability to just take over games and dominate them the way elite players do.  They aren't consistent the way the best of the best are, but they can do it on weeks when they are locked in.

 

And I think Juice is blowing up into an elite player right before our eyes.  I can't get a gauge on his ceiling right now because he's still young and developing and gaining experience rapidly, but there are flashes where he looks like he has the potential to be a top five corner.  He has dominant physical traits.

 

Jamin does too, for that matter, and he's developing as well.  Curl and Forrest are becoming really excellent players in the secondary.  Dotson has the potential to be a star in a couple of years.  Samuel is a dynamic playmaker.  Leno is a really good player and Cosmi has the potential to be too.  Roullier is a really good player when he's out there.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to say this team has four All Pro caliber dudes on it--all good dudes with leadership qualities.  And as soon as next season, we could easily have 15 guys on the roster with 7+ AV season potential (7 AV being the bar to be considered a good starter or really good rotation player in most cases).  15 out of 22 starting jobs being held down by good players plus some mainstays on special teams.  That is a loaded roster with the kind of depth and balance necessary for contention.  We just need to settle on a QB and support him with a good OL.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Chase has elite talent, he just needs to get healthy and put it all together on the field.  And I think he will. 

 

Montez and Gibby are elite athletes with a couple flaws/limitations in the way they see the game, but they have proven that they have the ability to just take over games and dominate them the way elite players do.  They aren't consistent the way the best of the best are, but they can do it on weeks when they are locked in.

 

And I think Juice is blowing up into an elite player right before our eyes.  I can't get a gauge on his ceiling right now because he's still young and developing and gaining experience rapidly, but there are flashes where he looks like he has the potential to be a top five corner.  He has dominant physical traits.

 

Jamin does too, for that matter, and he's developing as well.  Curl and Forrest are becoming really excellent players in the secondary.  Dotson has the potential to be a star in a couple of years.  Samuel is a dynamic playmaker.  Leno is a really good player and Cosmi has the potential to be too.  Roullier is a really good player when he's out there.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to say this team has four All Pro caliber dudes on it--all good dudes with leadership qualities.  And as soon as next season, we could easily have 15 guys on the roster with 7+ AV season potential (7 AV being the bar to be considered a good starter or really good rotation player in most cases).  15 out of 22 starting jobs being held down by good players plus some mainstays on special teams.  That is a loaded roster with the kind of depth and balance necessary for contention.  We just need to settle on a QB and support him with a good OL.

 

 

I think it's a stretch to say this team has four all-pro caliber players.

 

We haven't had any all-pros aside from Scherff in basically Snyder's entire tenure.

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

We haven't had any all-pros aside from Scherff in basically Snyder's entire tenure.

Which is kinda funny because I thought that all pro season for him was his worst one here

[Est.1974]

My stance on TH hasn’t changed but there is no way Rivera can bench TH for Wentz. None at all in my opinion. 

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think it's a stretch to say this team has four all-pro caliber players.

 

We haven't had any all-pros aside from Scherff in basically Snyder's entire tenure.

 

There is a popularity/buzz factor to get picked as an All Pro, and a lot of that comes from being on national TV and being in contention.  I think that has been the biggest reason why we haven't had All Pros in the Snyder era, because I absolutely think our best players and leaders over this period have been All Pro caliber--Portis, Samuels, Trent, Fletcher, Taylor, etc.  Andrew Whitworth has made three All Pro teams, and he's a really good player but there is absolutely no way he's better than Trent and Samuels were for us when they were in their prime.  But in the three years that Whitworth made All-Pro, he played on buzzy teams that had like 7 or 8 probowlers on them and they made the playoffs.  Unless your a HoF-bound All Timer like JJ Watt or Aaron Donald, that's what it takes to get All Pro recognition.  Our teams haven't been good enough for our stars to shine and gain reputation, but I think they have the talent to do it.  And give us a season where our team makes a run and becomes the buzzy favorite to win the SB and I guarantee you dudes like Allen and Terry and Daron and Chase will end up on the All Pro teams.

[Zim489]

17 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Chase has elite talent, he just needs to get healthy and put it all together on the field.  And I think he will. 

 

Montez and Gibby are elite athletes with a couple flaws/limitations in the way they see the game, but they have proven that they have the ability to just take over games and dominate them the way elite players do.  They aren't consistent the way the best of the best are, but they can do it on weeks when they are locked in.

 

And I think Juice is blowing up into an elite player right before our eyes.  I can't get a gauge on his ceiling right now because he's still young and developing and gaining experience rapidly, but there are flashes where he looks like he has the potential to be a top five corner.  He has dominant physical traits.

 

Jamin does too, for that matter, and he's developing as well.  Curl and Forrest are becoming really excellent players in the secondary.  Dotson has the potential to be a star in a couple of years.  Samuel is a dynamic playmaker.  Leno is a really good player and Cosmi has the potential to be too.  Roullier is a really good player when he's out there.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to say this team has four All Pro caliber dudes on it--all good dudes with leadership qualities.  And as soon as next season, we could easily have 15 guys on the roster with 7+ AV season potential (7 AV being the bar to be considered a good starter or really good rotation player in most cases).  15 out of 22 starting jobs being held down by good players plus some mainstays on special teams.  That is a loaded roster with the kind of depth and balance necessary for contention.  We just need to settle on a QB and support him with a good OL.

You said a lot of ifs and buts here.
 

Montez is in his 4th year. There’s no talk of potential. He’s either elite or he isnt

 

Gibson is in year 3 as a RB. The position that is historically the most prone for year one or two success. The team drafted another 3rd rounder to take a bulk of the carries. Not elite 

 

BSJ we’ll see. Too grabby for my taste with lots of PIs. TBD. 
 

Jamin is definitely playing better but he’s no where close to an All Pro level. 
 

Curl is the closest out of everyone listed. He’s playing like one. Pump the brakes on Forrest. He’s played limited snaps most games. 
 

Dotson is the least likely of everyone listed at becoming elite. Won’t get the production and given his size it and overall athleticism it would he a surprise of the century. 
 

Samuel is a nice gadget player that is likely gone with a new staff. 
 

Leno is 31 years old. He’s not close to elite and never will be. 
 

Well see on Cosmi but with there talks of him being kicked inside in year 2 of a 2nd rd tackle that’s bust territory. 
 

Roullier was one of the top guys in the league at his position. Back half of the top 10. Unfortunately he can’t stay healthy and is a prime cut candidate 

 

You are wildly overstating the talent on this team. 15 of the 22 starters are not good players. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

 

There is a popularity/buzz factor to get picked as an All Pro, and a lot of that comes from being on national TV and being in contention.  I think that has been the biggest reason why we haven't had All Pros in the Snyder era, because I absolutely think our best players and leaders over this period have been All Pro caliber--Portis, Samuels, Trent, Fletcher, Taylor, etc.  Andrew Whitworth has made three All Pro teams, and he's a really good player but there is absolutely no way he's better than Trent and Samuels were for us when they were in their prime.  But in the three years that Whitworth made All-Pro, he played on buzzy teams that had like 7 or 8 probowlers on them and they made the playoffs.  Unless your a HoF-bound All Timer like JJ Watt or Aaron Donald, that's what it takes to get All Pro recognition.  Our teams haven't been good enough for our stars to shine and gain reputation, but I think they have the talent to do it.  And give us a season where our team makes a run and becomes the buzzy favorite to win the SB and I guarantee you dudes like Allen and Terry and Daron and Chase will end up on the All Pro teams.

 

I disagree with you.

 

I think Allen and Payne are close to that level. Allen moreso. And that's about it at the moment. What may come down the pipe with guys like Curl, Forrest, Davis, Young, McLaurin, Dotson remains to be seen. 

 

We are a roster that would be good with a QB and an OL. But their "overall ratings" sink this roster from good/average to below par. 

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

My stance on TH hasn’t changed but there is no way Rivera can bench TH for Wentz. None at all in my opinion. 

 

Yeah Heinicke is who he is, and was the same guy last night as he's been before. But I also can't see them benching him for Wentz after they beat an undefeated Eagles team at home on MNF.

 

I just really wonder what the plan will be for QB next season. There's almost no chance we'll be in a spot to pick a top prospect in the 1st round. It's very unlikely that there will be anyone decent in FA. Maybe a trade? But not sure who that would be for. And unless something huge changes, Wentz doesn't seem to be the answer. I suppose if a guy we likes falls a bit in the draft then we could trade up.

 

I guess we can hope that Howell ends up being a gem.

[Renegade7]

"You don't need a dominant QB to compete for championships" is a mouthful im not ready to cosign to yet in 2022...

 

Its a total about face in regards to conversations on this board for at least the last decade up until this page in this thread.

 

Kirk did the damn thing against the Bills the other day. But what is the record of the QBs leading current top NFC teams versus the rouges gallery of young AFC gunslinger right now?

 

Until we see a trend change in teams that actually win a championship, I'm not falling for the NFC not having any elite QBs anymore to say we don't need one.  NFC will run into one every February for the next decade as a reminder at this rate.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Renegade7

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

You are wildly overstating the talent on this team. 15 of the 22 starters are not good players. 

 

I didn't say all of those guys were elite, but that four of them are and two more are on the fringe of being that caliber of player.  How many teams out there have more high end talent than that?

 

I think you are massively underrating the talent of this team, and have an unrealistic perspective of what constitutes a good starter and what the best teams in the NFL are putting out there on the field, and I think it's because you've committed to this idea that this team needs to be stripped down to the foundation and fully rebuilt.  It's blinded you to how well a lot of the guys are actually playing.  5-5 against a brutal schedule with half of the season coming from our back up QB?  Nah, this team is good.  They are already close to fielding 15 good starters and is comfortably at 10, and by next season they will be at 15 just by keeping Payne and getting natural growth from our youngest starters.  Jamin, Cosmi, and Juice will all be going into their third seasons and are trending towards becoming good starters and Juice is trending towards becoming a high end player.  Forrest already looks like a good starter.  Dotson is limited by what?  The dude is a burner and has elite hands and ball skills, size has not been a limiting factor for WRs in the modern game.  The league is full of 6' beanpoles who dice up secondaries and Dotson is every bit the athlete that Stephon Diggs is.  He is not going to be physically limited in his career.  Curtis Samuel is also a dynamic playmaker who would easily have been one of our best players if not for missing last season with injury.  We have a strong RB room too with the rare quality of having two 6'2 230 pound sledgehammers that just beat down one of the best defenses in the NFL coming off a mini-bye.

 

I know you're committed to your viewpoint, and we're just not going to see eye to eye on this.  I do not think you're being objective or reasonable in your assessment of the roster and its potential.

[Zim489]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

I'd argue McLaurin is elite. But beyond that, I agree. We don't have elite talent outside of Allen/Payne and McLaurin

Well this was the quote you started off with. We were talking about Elite. You were the one who deviated from it. If we want to talk about nice players or players who can ascend into nice players we can do that too. Here were talking about elite. 

18 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

The dude is a burner. The league is full of 6' beanpoles

Except hes not. Hes fast but by no means a burner. Ran a 4.43 which is the 76th percentile Besides his straight line speed hes an exceedingly average athlete. 57th 10 yrd split 57th vert 52nd broad (those two together show an average explosive player) 3 cone is 9th. 

 

Yeah size isnt as limiting as it once was. Beanpole would be an upgrade for Dotson is 16th height 6th weight.

18 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Curtis Samuel is also a dynamic playmaker

Dynamic? Tyreek is Dynamic. Curtis is a fine to pretty good one that is a prime cut candidate. 

18 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

5-5 against a brutal schedule

Currently 10th hardest thus far

Edited November 15, 2022 by Zim489

[Zim489]

11 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

They are already close to fielding 15 good starters and is comfortably at 10

Sorry but vehemently disagree. Its not the dumpster fire Ron came into but not 15 "good" starters. Thats just outright wrong. 

 

Lets run down the list of just whos here next year with all likelyhood due to their contracts and whos "good". Assuming a new owner gets to put his own staff in and removes the Carolina north Aspect of this franchise

 

QB:

RB:

TE:

WR X: Terry (Dont think hes an X to begin with)

WR Z: 

WR Y: Dotson will take one of those. Question mark of good

LT: Leno (fine for now. Age will demand replacement within 3 years of today

LG:

C :

RG:

RT: Cosmi will take one of the R spots. Complete question mark of good.

 

Thats only 4 people I would consider. RIGHT NOW. One of which will be gone soon. 1 is a completely up in the air. The last I think at worst will be a fine player. Onto the Defense.

 

DE: Chase

DT: Allen

DT: Payne

DE: Sweat (1 of the last two will be gone. Im leaning towards both should be gone)

W: 

M:

S:

CB: BSJ

CB:

FS:

SS: Curl

 

10 at the absolute most. And thats absolutely pushing into best case scenario. Jamin has ton to go to be a decent player. Getting there. I expect 3-4 of those to not be here in the near future. 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Zim489

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

Nearly all of these are after the fact of him being on the team and really about the only place to put him with out taking better players off the field. I stand with what I said that he would be better as a Z. 
 

There was a reason he was taken here and it wasn’t to “play the slot”. It was Ron needed to win and Dotson was the most likely to produce this season. There was a handful of other guys I would rather have with significantly better ceilings and better roster fit with our current group. Certainly a lot more Slot players. All of them needed developing and would likely be worse this season. Burks wandale Metchie Watson Pickens Skyee Tolbert I would have much preferred over Jahan. 

You’re right you don’t. But you need more things to go your way and you’re far less likely to consistently be in the hunt on a year to year basis. 

 

I subscribe to eveything, PFF, bought the PFN draft guide, ESPN insider, Brugler, you name it.  And no I didn't pull Dotson being considered by plenty as projected to be a slot WR more so than an outside WR in the NFL out of thin air.

 

A sub 6 foot WRs who is 185 pounds or so with a strong history of making plays in between the numbers -- aren't really suited to the slot and are more outside WRs?  to each their own on that.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

185 pounds

178. About 5% difference which is a big amount for a player of his size position and limitations. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Zim489

[Going Commando]

23 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

"You don't need a dominant QB to compete for championships" is a mouthful im not ready to cosign to yet in 2022...

 

Its a total about face in regards to conversations on this board for at least the last decade up until this page in this thread.

 

Kirk did the damn thing against the Bills the other day. But what is the record of the QBs leading current top NFC teams versus the rouges gallery of young AFC gunslinger right now?

 

Until we see a trend change in teams that actually win a championship, I'm not falling for the NFC not having any elite QBs anymore to say we don't need one.  NFC will run into one every February for the next decade as a reminder at this rate.

 

That decade of conversation has always come to the wrong conclusion.  It has NEVER been the case--at any level of the sport of football--that you have to have an elite QB to compete for championships.  Football always has been and always will be a team sport, where the dominant team is the one with the best chance to win the championship, not the team with the most dominant QB.  And it has always been tremendously difficult to build a dominant team, whether or not you have a dominant player at your QB spot.

 

Most of the time, the best QBs aren't on the teams with the best and deepest rosters, and Tom Brady is really the only recent exception to that truth.  He's an anomaly who has sacrificed (and been lucky) to consistently find himself on loaded rosters, and that's been his ticket to running up his ring count.  Exclude him and look at the best QBs of the past couple of generations: Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Pat Mahomes, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, John Elway, Steve Young, Dan Marino.  How many rings does that who's who of the greatest QBs in NFL history have?  Nine.  One more than the group of Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Russell Wilson, Matt Stafford, Brad Johnson, and Trent Dilfer have.  Not exactly a list of All Timers.  If any of them happen to find their way into the HoF, it'll pretty much solely be because they quarterbacked a dominant team on a magical SB run.  **** Aaron Rodgers is one of the greatest and most revolutionary players in the history of the sport and he's got one SB win.  Pat Mahomes is on a career trajectory to be the most dynamic player in the history of the position, and he wouldn't even have one ring yet if Kyle Shanahan hadn't puked all over himself in another SB.

 

Winning football championships has almost always been about building the best team.  And that may or may not involve having the best QB, but it has never hinged upon it.  You would think Redskins fans of all people would accept the truth in that.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Zim489 said:

178. 

 

Cool that helps my argument doesn't hurt it.  But depends on the web site, one i looked at has him at 183.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Winning football championships has almost always been about building the best team.  And that may or may not involve having the best QB, but it has never hinged upon it.  You would think Redskins fans of all people would accept the truth in that.

 

Winning SBs aren't everything.  Don't get me wrong, its the peak of the sport but its also cool to ALWAYS be relevant versus every 4 years or whatever.

 

Nick Foles had his moment in the sun but also been a part of a lot of crappy teams. 

 

Aaron Rodgers with the exception of this season ALWAYS has relevant teams, always in the playoffs, always has a chance.

 

Can you march into the playoffs and make some hay with Blake Bortles or name that QB.    Sure.  Does it last?  Not usually.

 

I do agree that if you build a killer roster you can win with a good -- not great QB.  But that traditionally is hard to sustain.  

 

Having said that lol its not as if we have an elite QB that can be had.  So we are forced to work the model you are pushing.  I am ok with it.  But i'd much rather have a Mahomes or name that elite QB who guarantees just about having January football every year.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Stadium-Armory]

Terry caught my attention in his post game interview when he said that [paraphrasing] "TH throws us lots of 50/50 balls and we love it. He gives us a chance to go make a play and beat the defender".   Which led me to think that some of his INTs (bar the egregious overthrows) are intended 50/50 balls where he knows the coverage is there but is trusting the WR to make the play.