Welcome to Washington Sam Cosmi, OT Texas

[Riggo'sRangers]

56 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Wait...only 40?  Hold up.

 

Ok, he's in a rotational role right now.  Averaging maybe 39-40% of the defensive snaps.  For a 2nd rounder, great play like that in a rotational role is still a good draft pick.  Cosmi has more value as he's in on every snap.

 

Anyone know if the Browns want to groom JOK for an every down role (somehow), or view him as just an excellent sub-package guy?

It really was never a comparison to Cosmi, whom I love. More vs Davis and trading down for more capital. Should have probably put this in a different thread. Cosmi was an excellent pick, period. Sorry for causing any confusion. 

[Warhead36]

People keep bringing up trading down but we don't know if there were any legitimate offers.

[Malapropismic Depository]

Whatever happened to that Texas fan who showed up right after we drafted Cosmi, to vouch for him, as we watched every one of Cosmi's college plays live, in real time.

I don't remember his name.

But he was, to Cosmi, as ODU Aggie was, to Heinicke (and still is).

[ThomasRoane]

11 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

People keep bringing up trading down but we don't know if there were any legitimate offers.

 

Watching Davis move there's no way I'd entertain a trade down in hindsight.  He's an athletic freak with a great attitude.  He'll figure things out.  When he does, I expect him to be an impact player.  He will cause problems.  Right now, he needs to be on the field and should never come off.  Especially not for Bostic!

[Malapropismic Depository]

On 5/3/2021 at 5:47 PM, SpiderY2Banana said:

University of Texas graduate here.  I witnessed every snap of Cosmi’s collegiate career and one thing people don’t talk enough about is how relatively new he is at playing OT.  Cosmi was a tight end in high school and is still learning how to play tackle.  The Texas staff offered him a scholarship because they saw what NFL scouts see — upside.  His development was stunted because he had to navigate through 3 different OL coaches and offensive schemes while at Texas.  He also switched from RT to LT his third year. The new Texas OL coach was hired from Alabama and the O-line reportedly improved dramatically over spring practice.  As a result, many observers think Cosmi could have been molded into a Top 10 pick if he had returned for another season.  That being said, he’s incredibly athletic and strong at the point of attack.  Cosmi managed to perform at a high level in college despite still learning how to play OT.

 

On 5/3/2021 at 6:00 PM, SpiderY2Banana said:

Malapropismic -

I can envision Cosmi as a tackle-eligible or TE in certain packages.  He’s simply outgrown the TE position to be much of a pass catching threat.  If you care to see him catch a TD pass, search for a video of him catching a throw back  from Ehlinger vs. West Virgina.  You’ll see how agile Cosmi is as he rumbles down the sideline for the score. 
https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/27775200

 

I found the guy and the name I was looking for.

Where's 'ol SpiderY2Banana been ?

Showed up right after we drafted Cosmi, to tell us how good he would be, based on all his personal observations of him in college, but he hasn't shown up since.

I figured he'd be back, especially with how well Cosmi has done since then.

[Bonez3]

I watched the NYG, Buff games and Cosmi looks extremely solid, let alone for a rookie.

 

The defense is atrocious. JDR needs to blitz at least 70% of snaps to win games. The LBs and secondary could all be cut tomorrow (save Curl & Davis) and the WTF  would be no worse for the wear

[mistertim]

On 9/29/2021 at 1:51 PM, Warhead36 said:

I agree with this. If someone is elite at a position keep them there. I'm not saying Cosmi is or will be elite, but even he's just very good, I'd rather have say a 8/10 RT then have him play LT where he's maybe a 6/10.

 

I respect your and @stevemcqueen1 opinion on this, but I still disagree. LT is a harder position to fill and if you can do it you do it. I don't think Leno or Lucas are long term answers there, just stopgaps. Cosmi is getting better every week and he has the ludicrous athleticism to be a truly elite LT if he continues to ascend. If he could be a 8/10 or better LT eventually I think you move him there easy.

 

To me keeping him at RT because he's good there would be like having a rookie WR who's a big, fast, physical, athletic freak and can get separation vs press, but who was at a school where they didn't run a full route tree so he's really raw in his route running. So you initially have him in the slot where it's a bit more forgiving and he can learn. But then once he learns and you know he could potentially be a dominant X receiver (which is a much harder position to fill) you still keep him purely in the slot because he's good there. 

 

Doesn't make sense to me. IMO if you think you have a guy who has what it takes to be a dominant LT, you at the very least give him a shot there once his technique gets up to snuff. If Cosmi continues to get better quickly, I'd be pretty shocked if they didn't at least try it next season.

[86 Snyder]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I respect your and @stevemcqueen1 opinion on this, but I still disagree. LT is a harder position to fill and if you can do it you do it. I don't think Leno or Lucas are long term answers there, just stopgaps. Cosmi is getting better every week and he has the ludicrous athleticism to be a truly elite LT if he continues to ascend. If he could be a 8/10 or better LT eventually I think you move him there easy.

 

To me keeping him at RT because he's good there would be like having a rookie WR who's a big, fast, physical, athletic freak and can get separation vs press, but who was at a school where they didn't run a full route tree so he's really raw in his route running. So you initially have him in the slot where it's a bit more forgiving and he can learn. But then once he learns and you know he could potentially be a dominant X receiver (which is a much harder position to fill) you still keep him purely in the slot because he's good there. 

 

Doesn't make sense to me. IMO if you think you have a guy who has what it takes to be a dominant LT, you at the very least give him a shot there once his technique gets up to snuff. If Cosmi continues to get better quickly, I'd be pretty shocked if they didn't at least try it next season.

 

Well, we should have plenty of meaningless games this year to experiment with him.  Id like to see him audition at LT too.

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I respect your and @stevemcqueen1 opinion on this, but I still disagree. LT is a harder position to fill and if you can do it you do it. I don't think Leno or Lucas are long term answers there, just stopgaps. Cosmi is getting better every week and he has the ludicrous athleticism to be a truly elite LT if he continues to ascend. If he could be a 8/10 or better LT eventually I think you move him there easy.

 

To me keeping him at RT because he's good there would be like having a rookie WR who's a big, fast, physical, athletic freak and can get separation vs press, but who was at a school where they didn't run a full route tree so he's really raw in his route running. So you initially have him in the slot where it's a bit more forgiving and he can learn. But then once he learns and you know he could potentially be a dominant X receiver (which is a much harder position to fill) you still keep him purely in the slot because he's good there. 

 

Doesn't make sense to me. IMO if you think you have a guy who has what it takes to be a dominant LT, you at the very least give him a shot there once his technique gets up to snuff. If Cosmi continues to get better quickly, I'd be pretty shocked if they didn't at least try it next season.

Of course if he can give you elite level LT play you move him there but what if he doesn't? And what if you run the risk of screwing him up by moving him around?

 

This franchise for basically forever has taken talented players and screwed them up by making them play outside their strengths. We took Clinton Portis and turned him from a home run back to a grinder. We turned Laverneus Coles into a possession receiver. We tried to turn RG3 into a pocket passer. We made Lavar Arrington a read and react instead of attacker.

 

If a guy is great at something, just let him keep doing that thing.

[mistertim]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Of course if he can give you elite level LT play you move him there but what if he doesn't? And what if you run the risk of screwing him up by moving him around?

 

This franchise for basically forever has taken talented players and screwed them up by making them play outside their strengths. We took Clinton Portis and turned him from a home run back to a grinder. We turned Laverneus Coles into a possession receiver. We tried to turn RG3 into a pocket passer. We made Lavar Arrington a read and react instead of attacker.

 

If a guy is great at something, just let him keep doing that thing.

 

But what if he can be great at an even more important position? There are plenty of guys who have moved between the left and right Tackle positions and it didn't suddenly ruin their careers; I feel like that's being overexaggerated here a bit. It's certainly different but it's not like you're moving a LB to Guard or something.

 

I don't really see all that much downside in them trying it. If he doesn't give you great LT play then you just shrug, say "we tried", and put him back on the right side and be happy that you have a great RT and try to figure out how to find your LT of the future.

 

Cosmi has the insanely rare blend of size and elite athleticism that is almost required for top NFL LTs nowadays. He's also steadily improving from game to game and has a great work ethic. Giving him a try there (probably next season) seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

If it works out you've got one of the most important positions on a football team figured out for the next 10 years potentially, with the first 4 on a cheapo rookie deal. If it doesn't work out you move him back to RT and move on.

Edited October 2, 2021 by mistertim

[Going Commando]

13 hours ago, mistertim said:

I respect your and @stevemcqueen1 opinion on this, but I still disagree. LT is a harder position to fill and if you can do it you do it. I don't think Leno or Lucas are long term answers there, just stopgaps. Cosmi is getting better every week and he has the ludicrous athleticism to be a truly elite LT if he continues to ascend. If he could be a 8/10 or better LT eventually I think you move him there easy.

 

I think the fact that we've adequately filled the LT position with stopgaps like Leno and Lucas is a demonstration that LT is not meaningfully more important nor more difficult to play/fill than RT.  Our TE is a route runner and detached Y who can't block at all and our run game is majorly right handed so it's easier for our RBs to protect on the left side where they line up.  Edge rushers move around and guys like TJ Watt and Myles Garrett and Joey Bosa spend more time lined up over the RT than the LT.  RT is super important in our offense, and if Cosmi turns into a stud at the position, then we should leave him where he is.

 

The only way to make moving Cosmi make sense is if we get an even more dominant RT prospect than him like a Daniel Faalele or a Darian Kinnard.

 

 

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think the fact that we've adequately filled the LT position with stopgaps like Leno and Lucas is a demonstration that LT is not meaningfully more important nor more difficult to play/fill than RT.  Our TE is a route runner and detached Y who can't block at all and our run game is majorly right handed so it's easier for our RBs to protect on the left side where they line up.  Edge rushers move around and guys like TJ Watt and Myles Garrett and Joey Bosa spend more time lined up over the RT than the LT.  RT is super important in our offense, and if Cosmi turns into a stud at the position, then we should leave him where he is.

 

The only way to make moving Cosmi make sense is if we get an even more dominant RT prospect than him like a Daniel Faalele or a Darian Kinnard.

 

 

 

Why does the entire NFL seem to disagree with you, though? Left Tackles are still paid premium dollars compared to Right Tackles and almost no team drafts a Tackle in the 1st round to play on the right side. Those are pretty much always drafted with the purpose of being LTs. They don't always make it there and will get moved to RT or Guard occasionally, but they're meant to be on the left side and start out there.

[Going Commando]

45 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Why does the entire NFL seem to disagree with you, though? Left Tackles are still paid premium dollars compared to Right Tackles and almost no team drafts a Tackle in the 1st round to play on the right side. Those are pretty much always drafted with the purpose of being LTs. They don't always make it there and will get moved to RT or Guard occasionally, but they're meant to be on the left side and start out there.

 

This is not even remotely true.  Penei Sewell, Ryan Ramczyk, Tristan Wirfs, Lane Johnson, Mike McGlinchey, Kaleb McGary, Jack Conklin, Riley Reiff, Bryan Bulaga, Tytus Howard, Alex Leatherwood, Nate Solder, and Germain Ifedi are all right tackles drafted in the first round.  That's almost half the league's starting RTs this year.  In addition to them, Rob Havenstein, Braden Smith, Taylor Moton, Brian O'Neill, Jawaan Taylor, and Sam Cosmi are all second rounders.  The collective draft status of the starting RTs is probably as high as it is for the left tackles.

 

I think you're operating on an outdated assumption about the role and value of the RT position.  In almost every offense today, the RT plays on an island as often as the LT, and that is certainly the case in our offense.  Logan Thomas ran routes on 86% of our pass plays last season.  The days of being able to cover up a stiff at RT with a TE on pass plays are over, and most of the league's best edge players line up over the RT for the majority of their snaps.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Why does the entire NFL seem to disagree with you, though? Left Tackles are still paid premium dollars compared to Right Tackles and almost no team drafts a Tackle in the 1st round to play on the right side. Those are pretty much always drafted with the purpose of being LTs. They don't always make it there and will get moved to RT or Guard occasionally, but they're meant to be on the left side and start out there.

 

Honestly don't know.  Pressure from the left or right has not statistically shown to be different.  Turnover rate is the same.

 

Premier edge players usually go against the RT and not the LT.

 

For some reason the media and pro-bowl/all-pro voters only really consider LT.  When RT usually has to face stronger opponents.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Honestly don't know.  Pressure from the left or right has not statistically shown to be different.  Turnover rate is the same.

 

Premier edge players usually go against the RT and not the LT.

 

For some reason the media and pro-bowl/all-pro voters only really consider LT.  When RT usually has to face stronger opponents.

 

I'd assume it has to do with being the QB's blind side, so the QB won't be able to see the rush as he would with the right side. So the Left Tackle is under a bit more pressure to keep his QB clean from that side since it's pretty much 100% up to him (though as we know some QBs seem to have a 6th sense for pressure, even from the blind side).

 

Pass rushers move around more nowadays than in the past, but the best pass rusher being on the blind side of the QB does make some sense in general.

[moondog]

20 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Of course if he can give you elite level LT play you move him there but what if he doesn't? And what if you run the risk of screwing him up by moving him around?

 

This franchise for basically forever has taken talented players and screwed them up by making them play outside their strengths. We took Clinton Portis and turned him from a home run back to a grinder. We turned Laverneus Coles into a possession receiver. We tried to turn RG3 into a pocket passer. We made Lavar Arrington a read and react instead of attacker.

 

If a guy is great at something, just let him keep doing that thing.

I mean, he played LT in college so if anything we moved him around by making him a RT here…one would think he would be more natural at LT…

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, moondog said:

I mean, he played LT in college so if anything we moved him around by making him a RT here…one would think he would be more natural at LT…

 

He played RT in college too.  My guess is we moved him to RT for two reasons: to play him next to Scherff, and because that's where we had an immediate opening with no player of significant experience on the roster.  I think he would have played LT instead if we had kept Moses and not signed Leno.

 

And I think situations like that are typically why highly drafted OTs end up at RT so often.  Lane Johnson, Penei Sewell, and Tristan Wirfs are some of the most athletic tackles to ever come along, but their teams had Taylor Decker, Donovan Smith, and Jason Peters at LT when they were drafted--firmly established incumbents and openings at RT.  Thus they play RT now.  It demonstrates that the importance of RT and the athletic demands of the position are the same as they are for LT in a modern spread based passing offense.

 

Once a guy shows some mastery of one of the tackle positions, I think the smart move is to leave him there and not try to fix something that isn't broken, unless you get another RT who is even better and you have to reshuffle in order to play your best five OLs.  In our case, if we draft a prospect like Daniel Faalele or Darian Kinnard: two absolutely mammoth RTs who are about as dominant of run blockers as you'll get, and two players who have also played RT in college, then yeah it makes sense to play them on the right and move Cosmi next year.  The run game would be even more right handed and dominant under those circumstances, and it doesn't quite make sense to put one power run blocker on his own at LT when Scherff and your blocking TEs are on the other side.

 

But I would only want to see a reshuffling that is prompted by building on a strength, not one prompted by an emergency hole fixing that just leads to discomfort and getting the lesser version of players.

 

 

[moondog]

39 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He played RT in college too.  My guess is we moved him to RT for two reasons: to play him next to Scherff, and because that's where we had an immediate opening with no player of significant experience on the roster.  I think he would have played LT instead if we had kept Moses and not signed Leno.

 

And I think situations like that are typically why highly drafted OTs end up at RT so often.  Lane Johnson, Penei Sewell, and Tristan Wirfs are some of the most athletic tackles to ever come along, but their teams had Taylor Decker, Donovan Smith, and Jason Peters at LT when they were drafted--firmly established incumbents and openings at RT.  Thus they play RT now.  It demonstrates that the importance of RT and the athletic demands of the position are the same as they are for LT in a modern spread based passing offense.

 

Once a guy shows some mastery of one of the tackle positions, I think the smart move is to leave him there and not try to fix something that isn't broken, unless you get another RT who is even better and you have to reshuffle in order to play your best five OLs.  In our case, if we draft a prospect like Daniel Faalele or Darian Kinnard: two absolutely mammoth RTs who are about as dominant of run blockers as you'll get, and two players who have also played RT in college, then yeah it makes sense to play them on the right and move Cosmi next year.  The run game would be even more right handed and dominant under those circumstances, and it doesn't quite make sense to put one power run blocker on his own at LT when Scherff and your blocking TEs are on the other side.

 

But I would only want to see a reshuffling that is prompted by building on a strength, not one prompted by an emergency hole fixing that just leads to discomfort and getting the lesser version of players.

 

 

Too many factors to play into what happens next year but pretty sure we just have Leno and lucas this year. Who knows what we’ll bring in for free agents and draft but if cosmi continues to get better I would be surprised if they don’t put him on the left side and bring someone else on as the RT. Whether they do or don’t is one thing but I certainly have no issues with it either way. 

[Going Commando]

11 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Honestly don't know.  Pressure from the left or right has not statistically shown to be different.  Turnover rate is the same.

 

Premier edge players usually go against the RT and not the LT.

 

For some reason the media and pro-bowl/all-pro voters only really consider LT.  When RT usually has to face stronger opponents.

 

I think the reason why a lot of the best edge players line up more often in front of the right side of the offense is because they're best all around edge players and their teams want them on the strong side for defending the run.

 

Another reason why I don't think the side of the pressure matters that much is because a quarterback in shotgun stays square to the line of scrimmage longer instead of turning his back to the left for a drop from center, so he's actually got blind spots on both edges of the pocket.  And if he's running play action from shotgun, most run games are right handed so he's turning his back to the right side of the pocket to make that fake so he's actually got a better view of the left side of the pocket on these kinds of plays.

 

Also most QBs are right handed and it's mechanically easier to reach a right-handed QB's throwing arm if you're rushing from the left side of your defense/right side of the offense and force a fumble or alter a throw.

 

So add all of that together and I think that's why most of the dominant edge defenders play on the left side of their D for the majority of their snaps.  But I think the main reason is the first one I mentioned--you want them at the point of attack against the run.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, moondog said:

Too many factors to play into what happens next year but pretty sure we just have Leno and lucas this year. Who knows what we’ll bring in for free agents and draft but if cosmi continues to get better I would be surprised if they don’t put him on the left side and bring someone else on as the RT. Whether they do or don’t is one thing but I certainly have no issues with it either way. 

 

Another factor will be scheme.  We don't know that Scott Turner and his scheme survives this season.  We could be running much more of a gap scheme next season and that could really change the roles and positions of the linemen.

 

There are going to be opportunities to get a really good OT prospect in this year's draft.  We might have to be in the DB/LB/QB market at that point, but if we do get one, then I think the nature of that player would determine what is best to do with Cosmi.  If the guy is more of a pass protector and not as good as Cosmi in the run game, then you just keep Cosmi on the right side.  But if it's a guy like Darian Kinnard who is a totally dominant run blocker, then he's actually probably a better run blocker than Cosmi and I think you make the move.

 

But the next offseason is the last time I'd consider jerking Cosmi around position-wise.  After a certain point, you have to let a man get settled into his position and have the mechanics of it become second nature for him, and making a change like that in year three just seems terrible.