2022 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Going Commando]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Why is there a fascination with finding a Mike? We spend a ton of time in the 4-2 which doesn’t feature a true Mike. We need a good all-around linebacker. Can offset that need with a good FS and a Buffalo.

 

Exactly.  A great, first round worthy stack linebacker needs to be able to do it all.  Dean and Lloyd are different from the other LBers in the class because they can do it all--play downhill in the A and B gaps, play behind blockers from the weakside, blitz off the edge and in the middle gaps, drop into any underneath zone, and man cover slot players.  They are true field generals/alpha playmakers that are what you want in the modern LBer position.  They can certainly play in the middle of the box and direct traffic, but they can also play outside of the box too.

 

That's why I think they project as future All Pros, especially Lloyd because of his size and rare zone coverage instincts and ball skills that give him the ability to pick the ball off and score.

 

Lloyd has been my favorite non-QB in this class since September, I truly believe he is one of the five best players in this class, and I think he would be the perfect intersection of talent/upside and need/fit for our specific situation.  I've looked at our scenarios at 11 from every way I can think of, and I keep coming back to the conclusion that Lloyd, Davis, and Linderbaum are going to be the BPAs at 11, and of that trio, Lloyd is the only one who fills a clear need.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Why is there a fascination with finding a Mike? We spend a ton of time in the 4-2 which doesn’t feature a true Mike. We need a good all-around linebacker. Can offset that need with a good FS and a Buffalo.

 

We need someone who can sit in the middle of the box, read alignment/motion, make adjustments, then react quickly based on what the action in front of them shows.  We did not have that last season.

 

In general a Mike can handle that role.  If we get caught up in 4-3 vs 4-2 or whatever it bypasses the notion that none of our LB's (and I don't think Lloyd can either) instinctively read the flow directly in front of him and either aggressively get to the gap or navigate traffic on stretch plays.  Holcomb is better being offset from the center of the action, he's better at reading flow from an angle.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but when I say Mike I don't mean specifically 4-3.  I mean the general skillset of quickly reading the action in front of them and reacting off that, which a Mike should be able to do.  A Mike should be a good all-around linebacker.  Nakobe Dean is not ideal size, but he is the ideal all-around linebacker.  He reads, reacts, and flows to the action through traffic well enough that he can be a Mike in a modern defense.  4-3, 4-2, 4-1, whatever.  He can do it.

[mhd24]

Kiper just posted his updated mock.  He has us taking Stingley.  Lloyd falls to 19.  Dean falls to 29!  Whatever you make of Kiper, he has contacts in the league.

 

Derek Stingley Jr., CB, LSU

Circle April 6 on your calendar. That's when scouts will get the chance to see Stingley on the field for the first time since he injured his foot in September. He had surgery on the Lisfranc injury and didn't work out at the combine. It's a crucial day for a corner once viewed as a potential No. 1 overall pick. As a true freshman in 2019, he was one of LSU's best players on the way to its national title. Stingley has played in just 10 games over the past two seasons and has some inconsistent tape. I'm still betting on his upside, but he could drop if he doesn't test well.

Washington had major injury issues at corner last season, and it could upgrade its unit with Stingley. I also thought about a receiver to partner with Terry McLaurin for new quarterback Carson Wentz.

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

In general a Mike can handle that role.  If we get caught up in 4-3 vs 4-2 or whatever it bypasses the notion that none of our LB's (and I don't think Lloyd can either) instinctively read the flow directly in front of him and either aggressively get to the gap or navigate traffic on stretch plays.  Holcomb is better being offset from the center of the action, he's better at reading flow from an angle.

 

I think you're overthinking this.  The real question is, whatever gap he lines up over, can a LBer play downhill?  The answer with Lloyd is definitely yes.  He can line up directly over A and B gaps and aggressively fit the run/play behind the line, and he can do it form wider alignments too.

 

In a 4-2, both of those stack linebackers are going to generally have the same responsibilities--pursue if the play runs away or play force when it comes their way.  So if you have a line up with Jamin and Lloyd for example, they're going to need to be able to do the same things.  A problem with our linebackers is they run fast but read slow and they don't direct traffic in the back seven like we need them too.  Lloyd does that and more.  He is a big time playmaker who plays the ball in coverage and gets drive-altering plays in the backfield.

[Koolblue13]

19 minutes ago, KDawg said:

We need a linebacker. We don’t need a MIKE. They are different types physically. Saying we need a Mike is false. Collins role was more like a Buffalo than a LB and yes, some consider that a variation of linebacker. But it’s more of a bigger DB like a safety who can play in the box. A perfect role for Kyle Hamilton.

What Steve and Captain said, except I disagree with captain that Lloyd can't do that.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Koolblue13

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

We need someone who can sit in the middle of the box, read alignment/motion, make adjustments, then react quickly based on what the action in front of them shows.  We did not have that last season.

 

In general a Mike can handle that role.  If we get caught up in 4-3 vs 4-2 or whatever it bypasses the notion that none of our LB's (and I don't think Lloyd can either) instinctively read the flow directly in front of him and either aggressively get to the gap or navigate traffic on stretch plays.  Holcomb is better being offset from the center of the action, he's better at reading flow from an angle.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but when I say Mike I don't mean specifically 4-3.  I mean the general skillset of quickly reading the action in front of them and reacting off that, which a Mike should be able to do.  A Mike should be a good all-around linebacker.  Nakobe Dean is not ideal size, but he is the ideal all-around linebacker.  He reads, reacts, and flows to the action through traffic well enough that he can be a Mike in a modern defense.  4-3, 4-2, 4-1, whatever.  He can do it.

This is wrong. We don’t need someone that can play in the middle of the box. We need backers who can play all around football. Mike backers are typically bigger body two down backers. If you envision Urlacher or Lewis when people say MIKE, they are exceptions not the rule. 
 

The need is for guys like Lloyd, Jamin Davis, Nakobe Dean. Inside backers, yea, but not traditional Mikes. We can say the difference doesn’t matter and a backer is a backer but that is false. It’s not a nitpick. It’s different skill sets. 

Back to the point: We need a Devin Lloyd type to pair with Jamin. Yes. 
 

We could cover that hole with Hamilton as a Buffalo/Free and Curl playing the other role as well.

 

We also need a #2 receiver. We need a shutdown corner. 
 

Can only cover so many big needs at a time when people don’t want to play here. 
 

So staying at 11 and taking the player we have rated highest on our board, hopefully at LB/FS/WR will be what we do. Close one hole. Hope it masks others.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

London im not high on. Intrested to see what he runs, but loved the Jordan Reed comparison you made.

 

Lloyd to Commander Ron is such an obvious move. It's about as much as a lock in this draft as there is. First year was wait and see and the high draft pick was basically predecided by everyone from fan to Dan. Last year was a complete offseason flop and almost cost Ron his job(probably not). 

 

Now? With 2 glaring holes, which Ron has talked about, we successfully and aggressively nailed QB, but have sat quietly at MLB. The position Ron loves the most. Muma is a RAS monster that we seem to target, but Lloyd checks every box and is a clear homerun at 11, where Ron likes to draft his guy.

 

Ron knows he has to win this year and filling those two spots is how he does it. I'd bet very good money on Lloyd being our MLB.

 

I'll ****ing absolutely love it and I'll feed off everyone's tears.  especially when it works.

 

Yeah I am on the Lloyd bandwagon too.  It's not like its him or bust for me.  But yeah this defense certainly needs a player like him.    JP Finlay talked about this recently among other who cover the team which is this team has a lot of quiet dudes.  It's not a rowdy locker room.  Apparently, McKissic is one of the more boisterous leader types in that locker room so that's part of the reason why they didn't want to lose him.  I've heard several times that Settle was the boisterous guy in the D line locker room.  Payne is quiet.  Allen mostly quiet.  Sweat quiet.

 

Holcomb from what I hear is mostly quiet, ditto Jamin Davis.  The corners are quiet.  McCain supposedly is somewhat vocal but not off the charts so.  Chase Young has some personality to him.

 

But yeah bringing some energy to that locker room probably helps.  But the bigger deal is IMO we need a QB on that defense.  Rivera flat out said Holcomb while improved on that front is better when he's directed versus being the director.  Ditto Jamin Davis.

 

I am watching the Colts Hard Knocks series and the star of that series to me is D. Leonard.  He's their leader.  He helps drive that boat.  I mentioned before back in the day I had good seats to a Giants-Redskins game and zoned in on Fletcher and was fascinated watching him redirect and reposition the defense before plays.  I recall one specific one where he noticed Eli pointing out Reed Doughty presnap.  Fletcher then quickly repositions Doughty from his left to his right and that's exactly where Brandon Jacobs ending up taking the ball and they stuffed the Giants on a big down.

 

I know some say modern NFL doesn't demand big time LB play, etc.  For me its yes and no.  Yes in that you don't have the 3 LB sets that much.  That's old school.  Ditto pure LB run stopping thumper types who need to be taken off the field on third down.   For example Chenal who I like, is more of that traditional LB -- I argue that he brings enough to the pass rush to bring another dimension to the game and he's not awful in pass coverage but nonetheless I get an argument made against taking a LB like that in the first round.

 

But Lloyd brings pass rushing juice and is good in coverage.  He's not the athlete that Parsons is but using Parsons as an example -- he transformed the Dallas defense.  The Giants defense stunk a few years back, Blake Martinez was given major credit for its resurgence and the dude wasn't even great but just good.  The Eagles defense woke up from their slump last year and much credit was given to improved MLB play.

 

If you get the right MLB it can change a lot.  

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/college-football-expect-utah-lb-devin-lloyds-patience-to-pay-off-in-2022-nfl-draft

 

“Over the years, watching more and more film, understanding the game more and more with every day that I watch film; every minute I take away something new,” Lloyd said. “That has just continuously elevated my game and really elevated my understanding of the game, as far as how offenses are trying to attack me. How do I counter this and that? Understanding the details. Understanding where to strike, where to have my head, where to get knocked back, understanding when to strike versus when to evade a block. Whether it be run or pass, when can I be aggressive, when do I have to play assignment ball, it’s just all the little details that really separate your play from a 90-tackle season to a 150-tackle season.”

Devin Lloyd's 2021 statistics

Total Snaps	Tackles	Stops	Pressures	INTs + PBUs
273	32	17	11	3

You don’t just have to hear Lloyd’s words on his development, you can visibly see it on the field and in his grades. In his first season as a starter, Lloyd had an overall PFF grade of 69.7 while the weakest area of his game was in the coverage (60.5). The following season, his overall production took a major step forward, as did his overall grade, which bumped up to 82.2. The coverage grade went up to 65.3 but was still one of the lower grades in his profile. Now, in 2021, Lloyd’s 87.1 overall grade is the best of his career, and his 86.7 coverage grade shows that a previous weakness has now become a strength.

Devin Lloyd's Defensive Grades as a Starter (Min. 100 Snaps)

Season	Pass-Rushing Grade	Coverage Grade	Overall Grade	Overall Season Rank
2019	69.8	60.2	69.5	146 of 1032
2020	83.5	65.3	82.2	16 of 836
2021*	87.3	86.7	87.9	2 of 409

*2021's figures represent the four games that Utah has played through Week 5

Lloyd notes that the jump in his game comes not only just from watching his own film but also from studying some of the best in the game.

“Love Fred Warner. He’s probably the top guy in the league, I feel like,” Lloyd said. “I love his game, his mentality. He’s a dog, he’s smart, he’s instinctual, so I love his game. Darius Leonard, I feel like he’s an athletic freak. Always understands where to be and makes big-time plays. Devin White and Lavonte David, I think they’re a lethal combo. I think those two, I take a lot from both of their games. Even though we have different builds, I think we still kind of play similarly and I love their mentality. Guys like that, Eric Kendricks, I think he’s a really good backer too. There’s a lot of guys that I watch honestly that I appreciate their game, and I learn a lot from them. But those are some of the top guys.”

After years of watching himself and some of the top pros at his position, Lloyd has a pretty good idea of what trait makes the best linebacker.

“There’s a lot of things that go into it, but I’m ultimately going to say it comes down to instincts because when it comes down to it, being a good linebacker means getting to the ball every play,” Lloyd said. “Being smart helps, being athletic helps, all that helps, but if you’re instinctual and you get to the ball, then that’ll make you a good linebacker.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

What Steve and Captain said.

Steve is agreeing with me.

 

Also, Captain is pretty much totally incorrect. Lloyd fits perfect. But is not a Mike. The distinction matters. May seem nitpicky but it’s not.

Edited March 22, 2022 by KDawg

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Steve is agreeing with me.

Not exactly. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Not exactly. 

Yes. He is. Exactly.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Yes. He is. Exactly.

We need a LBer who can excel in the middle and direct the defense. They need to be able to play outside in addition, but they need to play in the middle/inside and cover. Thats what I got from his post. You make it sound like we need another Davis or Holcomb, instead of someone between them. That's wrong.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We need a LBer who can excel in the middle and direct the defense. They need to be able to play outside in addition, but they need to play in the middle/inside and cover. Thats what I got from his post. You make it sound like we need another Davis or Holcomb, instead of someone between them. That's wrong.

No, it’s not wrong. We need a stack backer. Not a middle backer. A stack backer can play a/b gap, cover, run sideline to sideline and play downhill. Where Holcomb and Davis both struggle is playing downhill. But their skill set, aside from that, is what we need. Lloyd is that. He is a stack backer not a traditional Mike. A field general but not a traditional Mike.

Edited March 22, 2022 by KDawg

[Anselmheifer]

I’m not a huge fan of Lloyd at 11. But, he’s physical, produces, is better in coverage than his times speed would indicate and also has produced as an edge rusher. That could be really useful for us as we lack depth at edge. Position flex. 

[Koolblue13]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

No, it’s not wrong. We need a stack backer. Not a middle backer. A stack backer can play a/b gap, cover, run sideline to sideline and play downhill. Where Holcomb and Davis both struggle is playing downhill. But their skill set, aside from that, is what we need. Lloyd is that. He is a stack backer not a traditional Mike. A field general but not a traditional Mike.

Okay. That's what a middle linebacker is.

[KDawg]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

Okay. That's what a middle linebacker is.

 

...

 

No.

 

That's what an inside backer is.

 

A middle backer is in the middle of three. Often protected by a nose.

 

We play a 4-2 primarily. Which is two backers.

 

If you consider the Buffalo a linebacker, fine, but neither of the ILBs will be dead middle of the alignment and protected by a 1-technique unless it's a specific bump due to a tendency.

[Skinsinparadise]

The previous sea

21 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We need a LBer who can excel in the middle and direct the defense. They need to be able to play outside in addition, but they need to play in the middle/inside and cover. Thats what I got from his post. You make it sound like we need another Davis or Holcomb, instead of someone between them. That's wrong.

 

Yep I thik all the arguments in favor of a LB can be true when combined.  We seem to be debating nuances but I think most of us are on the same page.

 

Rivera hasn't been shy about saying he wants a linebacker to help captain the LB corps.  He flat out said he thinks having that dude will have a ripple effect in that they'd help the whole unit and allow Jamin and Holcomb to play in a more free fashion without having to think too much.

 

Yeah we don't play 3 LB sets much but its not like we never do.  So having a dude who can play on first down or against teams who rely more on the run indeed would help.  But if they are pigeonholed as just that then "meh".  But if you got a dude who can play everywhere and can rush the passer and play well in coverage -- now you are cooking.

 

I know they liked Bostic (Rivera talked about it at the same, ditto beat reporters have said they heard) because of his alpha personality and his ability to direct the defense.  2 years ago I posted clips of LB sets we've had and studied what they did in most games and found that Bostic was typically the mainstay when they moved from 3 to 2 LB sets.  Even though Bostic was arguably the worst LB they had in coverage.   But Rivera seemed to value having a dude with his kind of presence on the field at all times.

 

They had Bostic play in the middle often on first down.  And then on most other downs with 2 lbs sets, if I recall right, Bostic was usually playing strong side -- on the left. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

18 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We need a LBer who can excel in the middle and direct the defense. They need to be able to play outside in addition, but they need to play in the middle/inside and cover. Thats what I got from his post. You make it sound like we need another Davis or Holcomb, instead of someone between them. That's wrong.

 

I think you're misreading me, and that I am agreeing with KDawg.  I think we were getting too pigeonholed in our definition of a modern MLB as someone who just plays in the middle underneath zone and guards the A or B gaps.  My point is the same as KDawg's: a modern stack linebacker really has to be able to do it all in order to be a great player.  Someone who is just an old school thumper in the middle isn't really that important or valuable any more.  Sometimes you will need your lbers to do that, but not that frequently.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

...

 

No.

 

That's what an inside backer is.

 

A middle backer is in the middle of three. Often protected by a nose.

 

We play a 4-2 primarily. Which is two backers.

 

If you consider the Buffalo a linebacker, fine, but neither of the ILBs will be dead middle of the alignment and protected by a 1-technique unless it's a specific bump due to a tendency.

You're splitting hairs. If there is 3 LBers on the field, where does that LBer play? When there are two LBers inside the Ends, they're both still in the middle. 

 

If your only point is that the MLB is a guy who just plays run, I'm going to be really frustrated.

 

If the guy who primarily plays in the middle or inside moves outside on some plays, he's still the MLB. If a DE drops into coverage, he's not a CB.

 

MLB is just a general term for the LBer who is generally the center of the defense. We don't have that, which is why we all say we need a MLB.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I think you're misreading me, and that I am agreeing with KDawg.  I think we were getting too pigeonholed in our definition of a modern MLB as someone who just plays in the middle underneath zone and guards the A or B gaps.  My point is the same as KDawg's: a modern stack linebacker really has to be able to do it all in order to be a great player.  Someone who is just an old school thumper in the middle isn't really that important or valuable any more.  Sometimes you will need your lbers to do that, but not that frequently.

I think the hang up is that a stack CAN play a true MIKE role but isn't a traditional Mike.

 

So when people say MIKE they are using it to mean Field General, not necessarily traditional MIKE backer. Which can get the point across, but it means different things to football people. A stack backer and a true MIKE are different in skillsets.

 

It's semi semantical but it's an important distinction to make, imo. 

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You're splitting hairs. If there is 3 LBers on the field, where does that LBer play? When there are two LBers inside the Ends, they're both still in the middle. 

 

If your only point is that the MLB is a guy who just plays run, I'm going to be really frustrated.

 

If the guy who primarily plays in the middle or inside moves outside on some plays, he's still the MLB. If a DE drops into coverage, he's not a CB.

 

MLB is just a general term for the LBer who is generally the center of the defense. We don't have that, which is why we all say we need a MLB.

 

Stack backers are generally over guards, not aligned in a 00 tech.

 

A guy stacked over a 3-technique DT, for instance, is NOT a Mike. He is an inside backer. If a safety is rolled up as the force defender on the edge you can consider him a linebacker. But what makes a MIKE a MIKE is alignment. Collins rolled up outside on an inside shade of a slot playing force on the strong side with Holcomb on the weak 30 and Davis on the strong 10, for instance, doesn't make Davis a traditional MIKE. He is in the middle of 3 LB types, but a MIKE in a traditional sense is a 00-tech alignment who plays mostly hole/hook zones and not much else coverage wise. 

 

It IS semantical. But it makes a VERY big difference.

 

Where you, me, steve, SIP agree, however: Lloyd is what we need.

Edited March 22, 2022 by KDawg

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I think the hang up is that a stack CAN play a true MIKE role but isn't a traditional Mike.

 

So when people say MIKE they are using it to mean Field General, not necessarily traditional MIKE backer. Which can get the point across, but it means different things to football people. A stack backer and a true MIKE are different in skillsets.

 

It's semi semantical but it's an important distinction to make, imo. 

Show me a roster where someone is listed as a stack backer, instead of a middle linebacker, outside linebacker, etc and then I think I should understand your point.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Show me a roster where someone is listed as a stack backer, instead of a middle linebacker, outside linebacker, etc and then I think I should understand your point.

 

Notice how none of them have "MLB" or "OLB"? Because in most defenses now the ILB in the 4-2 alignment is a hybrid of the two. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Catching up with this debate just now.  I think everyone is close to agreement on point.

 

The ones who like Lloyd all seem to agree:

 

A.  We can use another LB

B.  We can use another LB who is a field general

C.  We can use an alpha personality in the locker room especially coming from that spot

C.  In today's NFL you need to be able to cover

D.  Pass rush is a good bonus too for today's NFL -- see Devin White, etc.

 

I think the thought process is similar from whomever is pushing it.  I think everyone gets that we are in 4-2 a lot.  Heck last year we were even in 1 LB sets a heck of a lot -- sometimes with 5 D lineman.  3 safety sets, etc.

 

Good article about how the spot has evolved over the years.  Lloyd and Dean IMO fit these developments well.  The reason why I pushed the value of the spot here is someone argued with me about this in the FA thread recently about how LBs don't matter much in the league these days so I was in the mood of selling it even though it looks like that sell might not be needed on this thread. But I do recall some even here don't love the idea of taking a LB. 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-modern-football-transformed-linebacker-position

 

Galina: How modern football has transformed the linebacker position

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Catching up with this debate just now.  I think everyone is close to agreement on point. 

 

The ones who like Lloyd all seem to agree:

 

A.  We can use another LB

B.  We can use another LB who is a field general

C.  We can use an alpha personality in the locker room especially coming from that spot

C.  In today's NFL you need to be able to cover

D.  Pass rush is a good bonus too for today's NFL -- see Devin White, etc.

 

I think the thought process is similar from whomever is pushing it.  I think everyone gets that we are in 4-2 a lot.  Heck last year we were even in 1 LB sets a heck of a lot -- sometimes with 5 D lineman.  3 safety sets, etc.

 

Good article about how the spot has evolved over the years.  Lloyd and Dean IMO fit these developments well.  The reason why I pushed the value of the spot here is someone argued with me about this in the FA thread recently about how LBs don't matter much in the league these days so I was in the mood of selling it even though it looks like that might not be needed on this thread.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-modern-football-transformed-linebacker-position

 

Galina: How modern football has transformed the linebacker position

 

 

Linebackers absolutely matter. What surrounds them can make their impact less. You have guys who can shut down an edge and those ILBs can focus more on the inside stuff and not worrying about going sideline to sideline and it makes them more effective. But they still have to be good at what they do. 

 

Regardless of what's around them... You have good ILBs and you're going to be much better for it.

 

Agreed with this post. 

[Koolblue13]

The terms are pretty generalized for sure, but I think pretty much everyone understands what's meant when someone says MLB and that;s not wrong, just because the position has evolved. There isn't much difference, but there are nuances to the difference between physical gifts and responsibilities. I understand the difference between a 34 and a 43 over. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

The terms are pretty generalized for sure, but I think pretty much everyone understands what's meant when someone says MLB and that;s not wrong, just because the position has evolved. There isn't much difference, but there are nuances to the difference between physical gifts and responsibilities. I understand the difference between a 34 and a 43 over. 

 

At this point I think you're purposely just not wanting to get it. The 4-2 isn't a 3-4 or a 4-3 over.

 

And I think you understand completely because you're a smart dude. You just don't want to call it something other than MLB. Which... fine. If that's what you need to do I suppose now that I understand when you say MLB you mean ILB the rest makes a lot more sense. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by KDawg