2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But to debate me on this it would be about taking down my macro point because that's my point not each example.  The Redskins in the last 20 years have really struggled to find great players and have skipped over a bunch that they could have drafted.  If you disagree with me on that -- then we got a real disagreement going.  But I gather you don't disagree on that front.😀

 

 

Another argument can be made that we actually drafted some players who would have been gems, but a piss poor organization without the adequate support structure let some players fall by the wayside and others didn't get the right hands on development.

 

For funsies though, and trying to stick with similar positions.

 

2000.  Instead of Lavar Arrington, we get Brian Urlacher (or Jon Abraham)

2001, in a draft loaded with WR talent we grabbed Rod Gardner.

2003, instead of Taylor Jacobs, we get Anquan Boldin

2005, everyone knows.

2006, instead of Reed Doughty late on Day 3, we get Antoine Bethea

2007, instead of Laron Landry, we get Eric Weddle/Michael Griffin (or Darrelle Revis)

2008, was a bad draft class, but there were still plenty of better receiving options than the 3 we grabbed.

2011, besides Kerrigan/Watt issue.  Instead of Jarvis Jenkins, we take Jurrell Casey.

2013, instead of David Amerson (we get Tyrann Mathieu), that said it was a pretty good draft all things considered.  Landed Jordan Reed and Chris Thompson.

2014 instead of Spencer Long, we get Trai Turner/Gabe Jackson

2016, been awhile since we've had the first two picks in the class bust that hard.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Another argument can be made that we actually drafted some players who would have been gems, but a piss poor organization without the adequate support structure let some players fall by the wayside and others didn't get the right hands on development.

 

For funsies though, and trying to stick with similar positions.

 

2000.  Instead of Lavar Arrington, we get Brian Urlacher (or Jon Abraham)

2001, in a draft loaded with WR talent we grabbed Rod Gardner.

2003, instead of Taylor Jacobs, we get Anquan Boldin

2005, everyone knows.

2006, instead of Reed Doughty late on Day 3, we get Antoine Bethea

2007, instead of Laron Landry, we get Eric Weddle/Michael Griffin (or Darrelle Revis)

2008, was a bad draft class, but there were still plenty of better receiving options than the 3 we grabbed.

2011, besides Kerrigan/Watt issue.  Instead of Jarvis Jenkins, we take Jurrell Casey.

2013, instead of David Amerson (we get Tyrann Mathieu), that said it was a pretty good draft all things considered.  Landed Jordan Reed and Chris Thompson.

2014 instead of Spencer Long, we get Trai Turner/Gabe Jackson

2016, been awhile since we've had the first two picks in the class bust that hard.

 

 

Supposedly our scouts loved Jordy Nelson but Dan was a M. Kelly guy.  That story has come out in recent years.  We skipped over Desean Jackson in that same draft.  I recall some on the board also in that same draft (me included) were into Calais Campbell.  Yet we skipped over him. 

 

I agree just to an extent the organization argument because heck even the bad franchises have had first year All Pros and or great players. The Jets have had D. Revis, J. Adams among others.  M. Garrett with the Browns looks like a beast.  The Giants have stunk of late but heck O. Beckham was a super star.  The Lions with Megatron.  On and on.

 

11 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Interesting breakdown on Lawrence here.  There's a very real possibility he could be our 1st round pick next year, and I think people should lower their expectations if they're expecting some once-in-a-generation type prospect.

 

 

Calling @volsmet  😀

28 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

But, I don't think it has to stay that way. We got rid of Allen. We got rid of Gruden. Kyle is an excellent talent evaluator and Ron seems to have enough gravitas to make his own decisions without being bullied by Snyder. Maybe the combination of Rivera and Kyle will work. Hopefully Chase is the start of something good.

 

 

I agree.  I have some optimism that this trend will change.  Gruden though had some issues as a HC but he actually according to most was a rare good evaluator for a HC.  Scot told me that to my face.  It was Jay that supposedly pounded the table for Ioannidis and Holcomb. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Supposedly our scouts loved Jordy Nelson but Dan was a M. Kelly guy.  That story has come out in recent years.  We skipped over Desean Jackson in that same draft.  I recall some on the board also in that same draft (me included) were into Calais Campbell.  Yet we skipped over him. 

 

 

I'm trying to remember, there were multiple issues from that draft.  Jordy went before Kelly, but right after Devin Thomas.  I recall a story about how either Snyder or Cerrato (or both) kept watching Devin Thomas's highlight videos on youtube and got smitten.  And I also recall that our team doctors told Cerrato (I think it was him and not Snyder, but could have been both) that Kelly's knee was shot and he shouldn't be drafted.  Cerrato thought he knew better than medical professionals.

 

I think there was a story about drafting Fred Davis as well, but I'm blanking.

[HTTRDynasty]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Calling @volsmet  😀

 

I haven't kept up with this thread.  Is he a big fan or is it the opposite?

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I haven't kept up with this thread.  Is he a big fan or is it the opposite?

 

Big fan.

 

38 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I'm trying to remember, there were multiple issues from that draft.  Jordy went before Kelly, but right after Devin Thomas.  I recall a story about how either Snyder or Cerrato (or both) kept watching Devin Thomas's highlight videos on youtube and got smitten.  And I also recall that our team doctors told Cerrato (I think it was him and not Snyder, but could have been both) that Kelly's knee was shot and he shouldn't be drafted.  Cerrato thought he knew better than medical professionals.

 

I think there was a story about drafting Fred Davis as well, but I'm blanking.

 

I recall multiple stories that it was Dan who was smitten by Kelly, went to his pro day himself.

 

https://dc.sbnation.com/2011/8/31/2395531/malcolm-kelly-cut-vinny-cerrato-daniel-snyder-2008-draft

Kelly is one of the failed picks of the now infamous 2008 draft class. Vinny Cerrato gets a lot of flack for his time with the Redskins, but if you listen to Jason Reid of the Washington Post, this one wasn't his fault. Reid was adamant that Dan Snyder overruled his football guru to pick Kelly.

Mr. Irrelevant compiled the many Reid tweets.

(Snyder) picked him despite the warnings of the team’s medical staff. Several coaches on staff at time thought it was a mistake, but as one told me after Kelly was picked: "That’s what the owner wanted to do. Just setting the record straight. Peace.

[Anselmheifer]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I agree.  I have some optimism that this trend will change.  Gruden though had some issues as a HC but he actually according to most was a rare good evaluator for a HC.  Scot told me that to my face.  It was Jay that supposedly pounded the table for Ioannidis and Holcomb. 

 

I didn't reference Rivera vs Gruden because I thought Rivera is a better talent evaluator. I actually like Gruden as a talent evaluator. But Gruden was pounding on the table for 5th rounders Ioannidis and Holcomb. That was his perceived pay grade. When Gruden wanted Trumaine Edmunds or Derwin James, he was ignored. My impression is Rivera has enough gravitas that Snyder won't just override him. 

 

Also, I agree that McLaurin has a very good chance to be special. I think he could easily make an all pro game or two. Especially if Haskins makes a jump and we can get in another legitimate outside receiver and a TE. 

 

Teams say this every year, but about us, it's true. We lack impact players. We need to be targeting an all-pro type guy next year. In my mind, the surest bets are Sewell and Micah Parsons and I'm on record as saying I'd trade up for one of them if I had to. We have enough money that we should be able to fill in the other pieces in FA. 

SIP, maybe you are right about Kyle Pitts. Daniel Jeremiah specifically pointed out his game against LSU, noting that he had success against Derek Stingley and Grant Delpit in individual matchups. For that game, he caught 5 balls for 108 yards and no TD's. 

[JCB]

Nice draft history roundup, AZ. 2008 in particular drives me crazy because we could have had Calais Campbell in the 2nd.

[Going Commando]

On 7/21/2020 at 11:27 AM, HTTRDynasty said:

 

So now 1st team All Pro equals "a pretty good rookie season"?  C'mon man.

 

And he was PFF's 8th highest graded safety last year - even on limited snaps and coming back from injury.  He started all 16 games as a rookie before getting a stress fracture in his fifth metatarsal in practice.  He's not exactly Derrius Guice, suffering from non-stop soft-tissue injuries.  A broken foot is a freak injury and doesn't make someone injury-prone IMO.

 

He tore his ACL too.  AZ is right that he hasn't been consistent over the past five season.  And I think Landon Collins was a first team All Pro in his first or second season too, and it hasn't really translated to a brilliant career.  I think there is some luck of the draw factor for safeties making awards teams based on the amount of opportunities they get to generate turnovers.  So you might see Byard or Eddie Jackson or Derwin James make it one year, but be left off entirely the next year because of having a much lower volume of playmaking opportunities.  Or the stars align and two guys who were pretty much written off like Justin Simmons and Jimmie Ward have big time seasons where they made a ton of plays.

 

That speaks to the nature of the value of the safety position, which I think is heavily overstated by the PFFs and draftniks of the football world.  Even with someone like Jamal Adams--who I think is the cream of the crop and a HoF caliber talent at the position--if the Jets said we could have him tomorrow for a first round pick... I don't think I would make that trade.  Absolutely love the player, but don't love the value the position brings to the table.  I can get all of the ability I need for the safety position from someone picked in that 50-150 area like a Juan Thornhill or a K'Von Wallace or a Terrell Burgess.  Especially if the guy is only really playing single high and two deep for the vast majority of his snaps.

[Going Commando]

On 7/21/2020 at 11:55 AM, Anselmheifer said:

James can be over rated and still be a better pick than Payne. I do agree that Fitzpatrick is better than James. Especially given the value of coverage in today's game.  And James has been injury prone. But Payne has been middling. Hopefully Payne has a break out year, but I'm not that confident. 

 

McQueen, I think you are talking me into Cosmi. I think he's likely to be one of the players that we might consider, given that I doubt we are choosing top 6. 

 

I think he's overrated, but I also think the position he plays is heavily overrated.  Payne has been middling, but I think he plays a far more valuable position and will have a bigger impact on the outcome of a season when he's playing up to his potential.  I think his relatively disappointing seasons have come down to how poorly the defense as a whole has performed.  Both he and Jon Allen are way better players than they've shown for us so far.  When they were in an excellent defense and system and culture back in college, Payne was the MVP of a national championship run as a nose tackle, and Allen won all of the same awards that Chase Young just did as the best defensive player in college football his final year.  That speaks to the value they can have when they're playing up to their potential.  And it speaks to how bad our organization has been that they've not translated any of that yet.  Mainly, our defensive coaching has just been awful for over ten years.  The culture has been terrible and we've wasted or run off a lot of talent on that side of the ball and have never gotten even decent results for any extended period of time.  I don't really have any doubt that our awful culture would have depressed the performance of guys like James and Fitzpatrick too if they'd ended up here.  Definitely don't have faith that we could have properly developed a raw talent like Tremaine Edwards either.

 

Hopefully the culture and quality of coaching has completely changed now that we've hired a HC and DC with track records of actual success.  Payne and Allen are studs and they could easily put huge seasons playing for these coaches.

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He tore his ACL too.  AZ is right that he hasn't been consistent over the past five season.  And I think Landon Collins was a first team All Pro in his first or second season too, and it hasn't really translated to a brilliant career.  I think there is some luck of the draw factor for safeties making awards teams based on the amount of opportunities they get to generate turnovers.  So you might see Byard or Eddie Jackson or Derwin James make it one year, but be left off entirely the next year because of having a much lower volume of playmaking opportunities.  Or the stars align and two guys who were pretty much written off like Justin Simmons and Jimmie Ward have big time seasons where they made a ton of plays.

 

That speaks to the nature of the value of the safety position, which I think is heavily overstated by the PFFs and draftniks of the football world.  Even with someone like Jamal Adams--who I think is the cream of the crop and a HoF caliber talent at the position--if the Jets said we could have him tomorrow for a first round pick... I don't think I would make that trade.  Absolutely love the player, but don't love the value the position brings to the table.  I can get all of the ability I need for the safety position from someone picked in that 50-150 area like a Juan Thornhill or a K'Von Wallace or a Terrell Burgess.  Especially if the guy is only really playing single high and two deep for the vast majority of his snaps.

Like I said though, James was still good last year, even coming off of injury. He was PFF’s 8th highest graded safety. I have no doubt he’ll rank in the top 10 (likely top 5) again this year. Collins isn’t close to the caliber of player James is - he is too deficient in coverage. I predict Collins’ All Pro season will be the outlier in his career, whereas James will have several more All Pros to his name by the time he hangs up his cleats. 
 

I think safety is actually vastly underrated.  You look at the impact Minkah had on the Steelers last year, or the impact Earl Thomas had on last decade’s Seahawks, or the impact Adams has on that Jets defense (I remember seeing some absolutely insane stats on their defensive performance with Adams on the field vs off), etc.  Or you can even compare the defensive performance of the Chargers last year (21st in DVOA) to what it was in 2018 with a healthy James (8th in DVOA). A single-high safety who can shut down the middle of the field, like Earl and Minkah, or a do-it-all safety who can dominate in the box and cover well too, like James and Adams, are much more valuable than a nose tackle in today’s NFL IMO. 
 

I do agree that your average safety is replaceable and relatively easy to find. However, if you can get a true stud back there, your defense catapults to another level. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Like I said though, James was still good last year, even coming off of injury. He was PFF’s 8th highest graded safety. I have no doubt he’ll rank in the top 10 (likely top 5) again this year. Collins isn’t close to the caliber of player James is - he is too deficient in coverage. I predict Collins’ All Pro season will be the outlier in his career, whereas James will have several more All Pros to his name by the time he hangs up his cleats. 
 

I think safety is actually vastly underrated.  You look at the impact Minkah had on the Steelers last year, or the impact Earl Thomas had on last decade’s Seahawks, or the impact Adams has on that Jets defense (I remember seeing some absolutely insane stats on their defensive performance with Adams on the field vs off), etc.  Or you can even compare the defensive performance of the Chargers last year (21st in DVOA) to what it was in 2018 with a healthy James (8th in DVOA). A single-high safety who can shut down the middle of the field, like Earl and Minkah, or a do-it-all safety who can dominate in the box and cover well too, like James and Adams, are much more valuable than a nose tackle in today’s NFL IMO. 
 

I do agree that your average safety is replaceable and relatively easy to find. However, if you can get a true stud back there, your defense catapults to another level. 

 

I'd also add that the plot about James isn't that he's a traditional safety in the mode of a Landon Collins.    There is a reason why Simmons in this draft was compared to Derwin James so much.  Simmons is even more versatile than James.    But James is the best comparison.

 

So yeah if James was just a pure FS and SS.  To a degree that would be yawn.  But the charm about James is how he's a swiss army knife that perfectly fits today's NFL.

 

Then you add his insane intangibles as a locker room leader -- then to me it's a major miss by our FO.   James is one of the best defenders in the league IMO.  Payne isn't even in a conversation about it.  Will see if that changes this year with Chase in the mix. 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2809036-derwin-james-of-the-chargers-is-the-perfect-new-age-nfl-defender

 

How the Chargers' Derwin James Is Forever Redefining the Safety Position

 

James could have been drafted by a team that wanted him to play weak-side linebacker, free safety or strong safety. Instead, he went to a team that is playing him at all of those positions and others—the perfect fit for him.

Cardinals quarterback Josh Rosen called him "a linebacker and a corner in one player." But that is a partial description.

According to James, he has played every position in the Chargers defense except middle linebacker and nose tackle. He has been at strong safety about 50 percent of the time and free safety about 40 percent of the time. The other 10 percent of the time he has split between nickel corner, outside corner, edge-rusher, defensive end, strong-side linebacker and weak-side linebacker.

 

The offense never knows where to find him. "If he becomes a guy where offenses are very aware of where he is on the field, then you want to keep deploying him in different spots," Chargers defensive coordinator Gus Bradley says. "At times, you'd like him as a rusher. At times, you like him in the middle third. At times, you like him in the box. So I think it's just making sure you want to have him around the ball as much as possible."

 

He has made plays moving forward, moving backward and moving sideways, leaping high and going low, in the backfield and downfield. He has mixed it up with 320-pound offensive tackles, slammed into thick-thighed running backs and dropped into coverage against wide receivers who move like house flies.

Being around the ball is what James enjoys most. "In the box, I feel they have to account for me in the run game, or I can blitz off the edge," says James, a leading candidate for Defensive Rookie of the Year. "When I'm at free, they don't have to deal with me as much as when I'm at strong, so at strong I feel like I'm able to impose my will more."

 

If there is a pile of players when the Chargers defense is on the field, chances are James is on the bottom of it. He leads the team in tackles with 81 and passes defended with 12. According to Pro Football Focus, he has 48 pass-rush snaps, four sacks, 15 pressures, two hits and nine hurries, and his pass-rush productivity grade of 21.1 is second best in the NFL among players with at least 25 rushes.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[HTTRDynasty]

5 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I think safety is actually vastly underrated.  You look at the impact Minkah had on the Steelers last year, or the impact Earl Thomas had on last decade’s Seahawks, or the impact Adams has on that Jets defense (I remember seeing some absolutely insane stats on their defensive performance with Adams on the field vs off), etc.  Or you can even compare the defensive performance of the Chargers last year (21st in DVOA) to what it was in 2018 with a healthy James (8th in DVOA). A single-high safety who can shut down the middle of the field, like Earl and Minkah, or a do-it-all safety who can dominate in the box and cover well too, like James and Adams, are much more valuable than a nose tackle in today’s NFL IMO. 
 

I do agree that your average safety is replaceable and relatively easy to find. However, if you can get a true stud back there, your defense catapults to another level. 

 

The Seattle braintrust obviously agrees with me.

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

Good God the Jets made out like bandits there. Jamal Adams has become one of the most overrated players in the league, he's really not that much better than Landon Collins. 

[HTTRDynasty]

21 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Good God the Jets made out like bandits there. Jamal Adams has become one of the most overrated players in the league, he's really not that much better than Landon Collins. 

 

Does not compute.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

I'm aware Adams is better in coverage, but as a box safety, not much of a difference. 

[Anselmheifer]

Good for the Jets. And maybe also good for Seattle. With Adams, hopefully they are making deep playoff runs and those 1st round picks aren’t very costly. 
 

This or the Minkah Fitzpatrick trade are the kind of trades I hope we are in a position to make in 2 years. 
 

edit: Also, I miss the legion of boom. I love watching Kam Chancelor highlights. Hopefully Seattle gets a little of that back. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Anselmheifer

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Going Commando]

18 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

The Seattle braintrust obviously agrees with me.

 

Adams is special, but that was the kind of trade that drastically shortens championship windows.  That franchise is absolutely terrible with their first round draft picks.  They've overcome it by digging up hall of famers like Wilson and Sherman and Wagner outside of the first.  But they only won one Superbowl despite fielding an all time great defense and HoF bound QB and coach because they don't manage their draft picks well and can't put a strong offense and defense on the field at the same time, nor manage roster attrition gracefully.

 

This was a major haul for the Jets, and it makes me feel even worse about what we got from Seattle for Dunbar and from SF for Trent.

[Going Commando]

23 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I do agree that your average safety is replaceable and relatively easy to find. However, if you can get a true stud back there, your defense catapults to another level. 

 

Elite players elevate their defenses, but DLs do it more than safeties.  Their responsibilities carry far more immediate impact on every snap they're on the field for.  They're also a lot less replaceable than safeties.  Elite a and b gap defenders have become some of the most impactful and valuable players in the NFL, comparable to edge rushers in that way.  Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, Kenny Clark, Chris Jones are the anchors of defenses that have won a ton of games, and in some cases chamoioships.  DeForest Buckner's All Pro season was almost as big a factor in SF's turnaround as getting Bosa.  Cameron Heyward has had more to do with Pittsburgh's success on D than getting Minkah, and Minkah is different from safeties like James because he is as good at playing corner as he is at safety.  DTs are much more underrated than safeties because they don't get their wins quantified by stats unless they pile up sacks like Chris Jones and Aaron Donald.  You don't really hear draftniks like Daniel Jeremiah waxing romantically about the Cameron Heywards and Mike Daniels and Kenny Clarks of the NFL, like you do with James, but their teams win.

 

Payne hasn't broken out yet, but he is a rare talent who has the potential to be an elite A and B gap defender.  He was the mvp of that championship defense at Alabama, not Minkah.  And the Jets traded off Jamal Adams, we're trying to trade him even before he knew about it, but I guarantee they will keep Quinnen Williams.  Having special at your DT position is something you don't give up on.  TBH the only kind of DB that approaches the value of a DL is a stud outside corner who doesn't need safety help.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Jamal Adams wasn't worth his draft slot until the Jets started blitzing him.  He's a phenomenal pass rusher.  If he could play single high safety, that adds value as well.

 

Without those two, a safety needs crazy range, crazy knowledge of what the O is trying to do and how to confuse it with wrong looks pre-snap.  E.G.  Troy Polamalu.

 

Seahawks have an abysmal pass rush.  I'm betting they gave up what he did because they viewed him as the pass rushing answer for their defense.  Adams, if used more as a Blitzer could hit 10 sacks next season.  The guy has such an unusual innate feel for how the pocket is developing while he's maneuvering around it.  Then his agility let's him redirect faster than the OL can react.

 

Adams > Collins.  That's not to say Collins isn't a pretty good player, but Adams can do more.

 

For single high safeties, I'd rather draft a smart zone corner and transition him to safety.  There are barely any good college safeties that can play single high.  I swear most drafts don't have one.

 

Kevin Byard was a college corner for example.  Jarius Byrd was as well.

 

[HTTRDynasty]

@stevemcqueen1 That Steelers defense was getting abused before the Minkah trade.  Largely due to that trade though, they ended up ranked 3rd in defensive DVOA last year, which is their highest ranking since Polamalu was still in his prime in 2010.

 

I still have my doubts about the whole Coverage > Pass Rush argument, but coverage is definitely more important than run defense, which is where Payne excels.

 

PFF recently released an article which ranked positional importance by PFF WAR (quoted the relevant part below): https://www.pff.com/news/draft-why-positional-value-matters-in-the-nfl-draft

 

I'm not saying I agree with their findings, but I welcome anyone who is willing to challenge conventional ways of thinking, and for all we know, it could be a more accurate rankings list than conventional wisdom would have it.

 

Quote

 

Let's take a look at the difference between “best player available” and what we might call “best value available” when it comes to hitting on NFL draft picks.

 

WINS ABOVE REPLACEMENT (WAR)

 

A few years back, our data science team took on the challenge of quantifying the value of the contributions each player on the football field makes over the course of a season based off of PFF’s play-by-play grading. They looked at how positive and negative performance impacts scoring and, ergo, winning in the NFL.

 

The result was PFF’s Wins Above Replacement metric (WAR). WAR has been a nearly universally accepted concept in baseball, but nothing had been attempted in the NFL. The basic gist is to try to measure how negatively a team would be affected should a certain player be lost, causing the franchise to go to the street to find a replacement. The average of the top 10 players at each position in the NFL from 2019 can be seen below. 

Position	Top-10 WAR Average
QB	2.5134
WR	0.701
S	0.6039
CB	0.5172
TE	0.3426
IOL	0.3212
OT	0.2968
ED	0.2783
LB	0.2762
RB	0.2166
DI	0.1868

 

Another way to look at this table is to consider the best-case scenario for any top draft pick. It’s also why we say that the market for top QB prospects completely skews any trade value chart. The value they bring to the table is three times that of any other position. Positions toward the bottom are best to avoid early in the draft, as they simply can’t bring the return on investment.

 

 

 

 

Also, here's some further reading on PFF WAR.  Very interesting article: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Eager_PFF_WAR.pdf

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by HTTRDynasty

[PartyPosse]

On 7/25/2020 at 2:10 PM, Burgundy Yoda said:

Good God the Jets made out like bandits there. Jamal Adams has become one of the most overrated players in the league, he's really not that much better than Landon Collins. 

Jamal is one of the top three if not THE best all-around safety in the NFL. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

5 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

Jamal is one of the top three if not THE best all-around safety in the NFL. 

I'd take Minkah Fitzpatrick over him in a heartbeat. Two first round picks and another starting safety for an all-around safety that excels most in the box is ridiculous. 

 

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

I'd take Minkah Fitzpatrick over him in a heartbeat. Two first round picks and another starting safety for an all-around safety that excels most in the box is ridiculous. 

 

Jamal is an all pro playing on a team with absolutely zero help. Minkah, while a great player, was also the beneficiary of a loaded defense and arguably wasn’t even the best defensive player on his team (Watt). Granted that doesn’t mean anything but when you’re surrounded by as much as talent both on the front 7 (Bush, Heyward, Watt etc) as well as on the back end (Haden, Edmunds), it sure makes it easier to look good. I also wouldn’t look as McDougald as anything more than a JAG thrown into the deal. He’s decent but hardly an irreplacable player.

[Burgundy Yoda]

36 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Jamal is an all pro playing on a team with absolutely zero help. Minkah, while a great player, was also the beneficiary of a loaded defense and arguably wasn’t even the best defensive player on his team (Watt). Granted that doesn’t mean anything but when you’re surrounded by as much as talent both on the front 7 (Bush, Heyward, Watt etc) as well as on the back end (Haden, Edmunds), it sure makes it easier to look good. I also wouldn’t look as McDougald as anything more than a JAG thrown into the deal. He’s decent but hardly an irreplacable player.

I'm not saying Jamal Adams isn't a good player, I just feel like he's very overrated. He's good at his job but I feel like his position isn't nearly as important as Minkah's. Minkah Fitzpatrick completely shuts down the deep ball and the pass on his side of the field. He's amazing, and really actually reminds me of ST. He definitely plays on a more stacked defense but that shouldn't take away from his play. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Burgundy Yoda