Serious Question: Do you regret letting Cousins go?

[Skin'emAlive]

Kirk Cousins career record vs winning teams : 5 - 29

 

Why are we still having this debate? As a franchise you are better off bottoming out and taking a chance in the draft multiple times over until it works then giving him that contract. The only mistake we made was franchising him the second time when it was clear he wanted a ransom. I understood that the FO thought he could turn it around, just like Minnesota did. But he is who he is. 

[JSSkinz]

19 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

And what is the narrative on Cousin's after this particular game. I am listening to NLF network, and ESPN and what I am hearing is 3 TD's from Cousin's plus a FG should have been sufficient to win that game for any QB, on the road, in that particularly loud stadium.

The problem with that assessment is that they were down 34-17 in the 4th quarter and at that time he only had 1 TD.

 

Maybe if he scored those TD's earlier in the game it wouldn't have been a problem for the Vikes.

 

Some look at that game as a comeback but I see a game that was over by the 4th quarter and a few dumb plays by the Seahawks let the Vikes back in the game.

 

Treadwell didn't beat anyone to get that wide open on the TD, the rookie fumbled when Seattle was on the edge of FG range and you will never see Wilson bat a ball straight up in the air ever again, that defensive back made a basket catch so that was a gimme.

 

Why is there always an excuse for Kirk, after a while, you would think people would accept there is a pattern here and stop making excuses for him.

[JSSkinz]

3 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

But there was a sports analyst I was listening to Monday on ESPN discussing the whole "shrinking in primetime" aspect of Cousin's referring to it as the "lazy narrative" because he is not doing what he used to do.  For some reason human beings, as a whole, form an opinion and regardless of what they see, they revert back to the original strong emotional opinion. If you think about it, Kirk's failures and shrinking in the past was due to his propensity to throw the inopportune INT or take the sack or fumble, trying to make something happen.

I'm sorry this is pure crap, it's not about "shrinking in primetime", that's never been my point of view I like looking at the entire body of work over a period of time.

 

The Vikes had the ball with 3:30 to go in the game against Seattle and then turned the ball over on downs.  That's not shrinking its not making plays situationally when they are absolutely necessary, it's why Wilson has won a Superbowl and beat Kirk in the Big Ten championship, some players have that killer instinct and some don't.

 

Kirks lapses have been situational, not necessarily game killing turnovers.  I can't remember when a turnover was the reason he lost a big game,  I wouldn't hold him responsible for the INT against Seattle Monday night, I don't hold him accountable for the OT INT against Atlanta in 2015.

 

So many crazy narratives thrown around, sometimes I wonder if the Kirk defenders actually watch him play.  He's a good QB, just not a closer.

[SkinFanInMinn]

1 hour ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

But do they consider how many $$ are expended on KC that could be used to build a stronger roster. IS his money and play offsetting the diminished capability of the team to field quality players. Does KC's play overcome deficits....could Keenam had better results with a lower cap hit with the added capacity the difference between KC and Keenum would have bought.  It's not one dimensional..KC's plays Good VS Great. Its a TEAM play that he should be measured against. You can't argue that KC's salary doesn't effect other capacity elsewhere on the team.

 

So far Keenum and his TEAM has outperformed KC and his TEAM. KC has NOT elevated TEAM Play IMHO

No I'm sure that's all over their head.  Only edu-ma-cated ES'ers can think in such details.  😋

[skinsmania123]

18 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I'm sorry this is pure crap, it's not about "shrinking in primetime", that's never been my point of view I like looking at the entire body of work over a period of time.

 

The Vikes had the ball with 3:30 to go in the game against Seattle and then turned the ball over on downs.  That's not shrinking its not making plays situationally when they are absolutely necessary, it's why Wilson has won a Superbowl and beat Kirk in the Big Ten championship, some players have that killer instinct and some don't.

 

Kirks lapses have been situational, not necessarily game killing turnovers.  I can't remember when a turnover was the reason he lost a big game,  I wouldn't hold him responsible for the INT against Seattle Monday night, I don't hold him accountable for the OT INT against Atlanta in 2015.

 

So many crazy narratives thrown around, sometimes I wonder if the Kirk defenders actually watch him play.  He's a good QB, just not a closer.

Don't be sorry. I am sure you think I am full of **** that is fine.  This is a message board you can say anything to me. We are all fans and all have different perspectives.  You know I guess it is me, and the way I look at stuff, but if a guy changes teams, it is a bit like starting over or a do over for me.   I thought last year he was doing the "overcompensation" stuff that drove me crazy when he was here as a Skin.  This year it is a different guy.   

 

 I agree with the whole lazy narrative on him.  If you are comparing every year to years past, then you know they are not losing this year because of him. He is not holding the ball, he is not taking the sakes, or fumbling the ball like he has had a tendency to do.   Not one other QB in this league could possibly will the Vikings to victory with that piss poor D upfront AND in the secondary. You can't possibly expect to win big games with the level of mediocrity there. No way.

 

Also in this particular game I thought it was 2:46 that they turned it over on downs, but I will take your word for it,, BUT I hated the play calling in that last series, and no that INT was not on Cousins, agreed.  I will tell you Digg's has let him down his fair share in a few of these games  - you have to fight for position there,  and on other plays you have to be a bit more aggressive, and not drop the damn ball.  Not at this critical juncture.  They little to no margin for error because of their D.

 

The year Wilson won that one SB, of his, which should have been two, had he not telegraphed that pass on the Patriots 2 yard line, he had the most dominating D in the league. Defenses win championships right.  That is the main reason they wound up there. Not saying he is not a good player, he is very positive, and a true NLP disciple.

 

•  

[skinsmania123]

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

The problem with that assessment is that they were down 34-17 in the 4th quarter and at that time he only had 1 TD.

 

Maybe if he scored those TD's earlier in the game it wouldn't have been a problem for the Vikes.

 

Some look at that game as a comeback but I see a game that was over by the 4th quarter and a few dumb plays by the Seahawks let the Vikes back in the game.

 

Treadwell didn't beat anyone to get that wide open on the TD, the rookie fumbled when Seattle was on the edge of FG range and you will never see Wilson bat a ball straight up in the air ever again, that defensive back made a basket catch so that was a gimme.

 

Why is there always an excuse for Kirk, after a while, you would think people would accept there is a pattern here and stop making excuses for him.

You could easily say the lack of pressure upfront by Minny allowed Wilson to have a lot of time in the pocket, and to be able to run for yards when there was some pressure, but it also created lanes for him.    Look at the TOP especially in the 3rd quarter.

 

I don't know about a comeback. It looked to me as though Cousin's had more time to get something done in the 4th.  But if you compare Wilsons and Cousins stats there pretty identical. The only difference is the Minny D giving up 200 on the ground, and their ST missed FG and the fake punt. That is enough to lose a game.

 

The Minnesota D for the most part, by the way, is the same unit they had last year when they allowed only 20 points per game (someone on here is actually pointing out that the reason their D production has diminished is due to the amount of money allocated to Cousin's, and so they can't sign more quality guys but that is just not factual). 

[skinsmania123]

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

@skinsmania123

 

Not coming at you in a condescending way, but if forced to consistently highlight other positions or groups on the team year in and year out as why a particular season isn’t great, doesn’t that in some way give credence to argument that he’s good, not great (can be debated) or elite? 

 

I think everyone feels he’s good, even the Kirk detractors, then the argument becomes more nuanced/opinion based when pealing back layers. Personally, I thought he was above average when a Skins, but now believe he’s separated from the pack of average to above and is now good (a top 12 type).
 

Just to provide additional perspective, I’m one who wouldn’t pay any good QB elite money and rather get guys like Dalton, Tannehill, or Bridgewater (If team was in position to do so) for much less and go from there. I’d only pay the elite... elite money. Totally opinion though. Just mentioning this to share that it’s not all about Kirk for me, but believing the NFL has a flawed system in evaluating QBs and assigning guys 12-15% of their cap. 
 

 

I appreciate your posts. They are always thoughtful. What do you think of Wilson?  I mean if you have the Legion of Boom your going to the playoffs right?  You should even get in and win a SB which they did.  Of course that group got broken up because of the cost keep that kind of group together.

 

So this past August Wilson's contract tops $140 mil, surpassing Rodgers, and you would think with that top heavy hit they would be mediocre for a few years, but they actually look decent on both sides of the ball. Not great, but decent.  I think Wilsons biggest issue the last few years especially in 2017-2018,  was the loss of decent D players and poor O line play.

 

You would think getting quality players with his contract and the one Rodgers signed would be difficult.  

 

Which when you said I would not pay a good QB elite money and roll with the Bridgewater types kind of makes sense because maybe your out of it for a couple of years but then you wind up with a D like San Francisco. I personally would not put Grappolo in a "elite" category, but I would put him in the Bridgewater category. 

 

But how do you explain Minnesota?  Last year, pretty much the same D, only allowed 20 points per game.   Rhodes is getting beat like a drum this year and their secondary looks like ****.  But it not because of Cousin's contract because the unit is pretty much intact.

[goskins10]

13 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

You could easily say the lack of pressure upfront by Minny allowed Wilson to have a lot of time in the pocket, and to be able to run for yards when there was some pressure, but it also created lanes for him.    Look at the TOP especially in the 3rd quarter.

 

I don't know about a comeback. It looked to me as though Cousin's had more time to get something done in the 4th.  But if you compare Wilsons and Cousins stats there pretty identical. The only difference is the Minny D giving up 200 on the ground, and their ST missed FG and the fake punt. That is enough to lose a game.

 

The Minnesota D for the most part, by the way, is the same unit they had last year when they allowed only 20 points per game (someone on here is actually pointing out that the reason their D production has diminished is due to the amount of money allocated to Cousin's, and so they can't sign more quality guys but that is just not factual). 

I don't completely disagree but there is more to it than direct cause and effect. Yes, they kept their D mostly in tact but was it the right thing to do? His contract did keep them from going after anyone that would help them get even better. But how much? Only they know for sure. Some guys on D had career years but are struggling this year - that part is clearly true. 

 

It is hard to blame Kirk when he scores 30 on Seattle and the D gives up 37. At the same time, it seems like more times than not, when you really need a play, when it takes someone digging deep and making that play that makes a difference, Kirk struggles to get it done. He has some times so not saying it's a never thing but more times than not he can't make the big play that's needed. 

 

Overall Kirk has been a bit of an enigma. I think he is a very good QB capable of leading a team. But there are these little things in critical moments where he just seems to come up short. 

 

As long as we do not play them I hope he wins. 

[skinsmania123]

19 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

I don't completely disagree but there is more to it than direct cause and effect. Yes, they kept their D mostly in tact but was it the right thing to do? His contract did keep them from going after anyone that would help them get even better. But how much? Only they know for sure. Some guys on D had career years but are struggling this year - that part is clearly true. 

 

It is hard to blame Kirk when he scores 30 on Seattle and the D gives up 37. At the same time, it seems like more times than not, when you really need a play, when it takes someone digging deep and making that play that makes a difference, Kirk struggles to get it done. He has some times so not saying it's a never thing but more times than not he can't make the big play that's needed. 

 

Overall Kirk has been a bit of an enigma. I think he is a very good QB capable of leading a team. But there are these little things in critical moments where he just seems to come up short. 

 

As long as we do not play them I hope he wins. 

Agreed.  Only if he is not playing would I root for him.  

 

I see what your saying here.  Two thoughts.  If your D only gave up 20 points per game in 2018, and you think Zimmer is a Defensive "wizard" lol, well then you roll with them because it was successful last year and Zimmer is a defensive wizard.  

 

Yes, Kirk is definitely an "enigma."  Well said.   But I absolutely think you they needed to take a risk at that point in the game, and I they simply didn't. Hated the playcalling at the end there.

 

One thing about Pete Carroll that I admire is he mixes it up, yeah sometimes with mixed results, but that is what you have do in this league.

 

I think in this game both Cousins and Wilson were okay. I mean their stats lines were identical practically but I get what your saying here and what others are saying.  I think he is going to have a real opportunity though this year to either take that albatross off in terms of those key moments in two of the next four games, or unfortunately it is going to stay with him and possibly define him. 

 

[Skin'emAlive]

Seattle scoring 30+ on Mins defense is irrelevant. The elite qbs play up to the competition. 

[Kelvin Bryant]

7 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Seattle scoring 30+ on Mins defense is irrelevant. The elite qbs play up to the competition. 

 

If you're going to downgrade a QB for losing games, how many points the defense gives up is extremely relevant.

 

If not, then it is reasonable to look at statistics. Cousins has a QB rating in the top ten in the history of the NFL despite often working with less-than-outstanding offensive talent.

[TradeTheBeal!]

7 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

 

If you're going to downgrade a QB for losing games, how many points the defense gives up is extremely relevant.

 

If not, then it is reasonable to look at statistics. Cousins has a QB rating in the top ten in the history of the NFL despite often working with less-than-outstanding offensive talent.

 

I mean, he broke Jurgensen’s team passing records.  Really can’t get better than that, can you?

[Kelvin Bryant]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

I mean, he broke Jurgensen’s team passing records.  Really can’t get better than that, can you?

 

To be fair, Sonny played during the days of 14 and even 12-game seasons.

[Skin'emAlive]

2 hours ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

 

If you're going to downgrade a QB for losing games, how many points the defense gives up is extremely relevant.

 

If not, then it is reasonable to look at statistics. Cousins has a QB rating in the top ten in the history of the NFL despite often working with less-than-outstanding offensive talent.

I would downgrade a qb because he consistently loses to winning teams, yes. That is the benchmark of a successful quarterback that is deserving of a franchise cuffing contract. And that is and has been the defining question about Kirk. The best quarterbacks backs rise up in the face of adversity. They put up 30, you put up 31. 
 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

3 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

 

To be fair, Sonny played during the days of 14 and even 12-game seasons.

 

You don’t say?!?

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

Agreed.  Only if he is not playing would I root for him.  

 

I see what your saying here.  Two thoughts.  If your D only gave up 20 points per game in 2018, and you think Zimmer is a Defensive "wizard" lol, well then you roll with them because it was successful last year and Zimmer is a defensive wizard.  

 

Yes, Kirk is definitely an "enigma."  Well said.   But I absolutely think you they needed to take a risk at that point in the game, and I they simply didn't. Hated the playcalling at the end there.

 

One thing about Pete Carroll that I admire is he mixes it up, yeah sometimes with mixed results, but that is what you have do in this league.

 

I think in this game both Cousins and Wilson were okay. I mean their stats lines were identical practically but I get what your saying here and what others are saying.  I think he is going to have a real opportunity though this year to either take that albatross off in terms of those key moments in two of the next four games, or unfortunately it is going to stay with him and possibly define him. 

 

 

Fair enough and I think you and I are pretty close. Just a few thoughts: 

 

That D get better as the season went along. They were pretty bad to start the season. So "wizard" or not, and even with the finishing results, you can always stand upgrades. I think Philly (yes I hate to call them as a positive), they continued to have a dominant D line because they would double down on it almost every year. But fair enough, they could have always decided they were good. And even if they wanted someone, to say Cousins contract and his contract alone kept them from signing someone is a bit of a stretch. It's a large picture. Lot's of moving parts. If you want someone bad enough you find a way. 

 

Full disclosure I did not watch the entire game. Just the highlights. I have no argument for the play calling. Keep in mind though that Kirk has the ability to change the call - or at least he should. So it could be on him. Also, may have been good play calls just poor execution. But again, fair enough I did not watch it as closely as you. 

 

Honestly the regular season will do nothing one way or the other. The only thing that will change the perception, fair or not are playoff wins. Until then the discussion will continue. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

4 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

it's why Wilson has won a Superbowl and beat Kirk in the Big Ten championship, some players have that killer instinct and some don't.

So you’re criticizing Kirk for scoring 2 TDs when he was down 34-17 but giving Russell Wilson credit for winning a super bowl that his team was up 29-0 before he even scored a TD? And in RWs other SB he threw an INT In the end zone to lose the game. 
 

seems like pretty selective and biased reasoning 

[goskins10]

4 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Seattle scoring 30+ on Mins defense is irrelevant. The elite qbs play up to the competition. 

 

I was going to ignore this comment until i realized it was likely directly at me - or my comment. So here you go - 

 

First no one that I have seen as called him "elite". If they have they are not being realistic. However, it is fair to say he is a very good QB, which you seem to also have a probem with. 

 

As for what is relevant - lol I can't believe you even said that the teams score is irrelevant. This is not a one person sport. You have teammates for a reason. You also have STs and Def that has to do their job. They gave up 27 2nd half points!!  You can't expect even an Aaron Rogers to overcome that very often if at all.

 

Also, I could easily say right back - As a defense - if your offense scores 30, your job is to keep it under 30 - period. The fact is - and what my point was - 30 pts should win most games. The offense played well enough to win. The D and STs let them down - it's 3 phases of a game for a reason. How bad was that missed ex pt.

 

I know, none of it matters - it's 100% on the QB - if the defense gives up 150, the offense better score 151! Right! If the STs makes gaff after gaff, the QB is supposed to overcome that! No matter what! That's a pretty ridiculous take.

 

My one and only response to this. No value in going on.  

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

2 hours ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

 

To be fair, Sonny played during the days of 14 and even 12-game seasons.

That and the offensive rules then and now are comparable to Rugby and Touch Football. These QB's are pampered babies with receivers the "D" can't touch. You don't see any LB's with a Moniker like "The Hangman" anymore.....Sonny was an elite tough sob...Kirk...don't make me laugh

[wit33]

4 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

I appreciate your posts. They are always thoughtful.

Much appreciated. 

 

Quote

What do you think of Wilson?  I mean if you have the Legion of Boom your going to the playoffs right?  You should even get in and win a SB which they did.  Of course that group got broken up because of the cost keep that kind of group together.

No doubt Wilson benefitted greatly to having a historic defense during his rookie contract, but it’s hard to argue his unique contribution to the run game and how it complimented the defense. Wilson has continued to win without the Legion of Boom, but admittedly this year appears to be the first time they’re SB threats— he remains the constant and is the main cog in why the Seahawks have returned to being arguably a top 5 type team. 
 

I can get with paying Wilson, due to his ability to maximize talent around him at a low cost to a franchise. His impact on the run game is historically great and undervalued/discussed— 6 of his 8 years his teams have ranked top 5 in rushing. He also takes care of the football at an elite level. 

 

This is completely subjective though and own that 100%. 

 

Quote

So this past August Wilson's contract tops $140 mil, surpassing Rodgers, and you would think with that top heavy hit they would be mediocre for a few years, but they actually look decent on both sides of the ball. Not great, but decent.  I think Wilsons biggest issue the last few years especially in 2017-2018,  was the loss of decent D players and poor O line play.

My view from afar was in 2016 and 2017 the team attempted to become more of a finesse pass offense and as you mention, we’re a team in transition. They’ve seemed to have refocused and built around Wilson better in 2018 and this year with great success. The team doesn’t seem elite around him and will require him to be great against the better teams to win it appears. With his status, that’s to be expected. 

 

Quote

 

You would think getting quality players with his contract and the one Rodgers signed would be difficult.
 

 

All situations are different with FOs having different philosophies and some will go all out for a 2 year run and can get creative with the cap, so it’s difficult to say what teams can or can’t do... you know? 

 

Quote

 

Which when you said I would not pay a good QB elite money and roll with the Bridgewater types kind of makes sense because maybe your out of it for a couple of years but then you wind up with a D like San Francisco. I personally would not put Grappolo in a "elite" category, but I would put him in the Bridgewater category. 

Right, you can also draft a young arm to develop behind those guys with no controversy, if a team chose to. I do feel the average to above guys can have good QB years, a top 12-15 type season. 
 

The Jimmy G niner contract was unique in the fact that the team had an abundance of cap when he signed and they smartly front loaded the crap out of it to mitigate the hit and guaranteed money later on, providing flexibility if he didn’t work out and appearing to know they’d have to sign younger defensive players to second deals. 

 

Quote

 

But how do you explain Minnesota?  Last year, pretty much the same D, only allowed 20 points per game.   Rhodes is getting beat like a drum this year and their secondary looks like ****.  But it not because of Cousin's contract because the unit is pretty much intact.

The Vikings defense is allowing 20.7 points a game this year and allowed 21.3 in 2018. This is just above average or so in both years. You never know when players will decline or have bad years— obviously the one player highlighted nationally is Rhodes.  Going from having a legit #1 corner to not is a big hit for a defense. The defense is capable, but looking from afar, the last 4 games has been ugly for them, but were good for most the first 8 games. 
 

To your point, 2017 was 15.8 and #1 in the NFL. 
 

 

 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

35 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

That and the offensive rules then and now are comparable to Rugby and Touch Football. These QB's are pampered babies with receivers the "D" can't touch. You don't see any LB's with a Moniker like "The Hangman" anymore.....Sonny was an elite tough sob...Kirk...don't make me laugh

exactly. Sonny would just get in there and manly his way to victory with only the hair on his balls and the whiskey in his blood to push him through. 
 

(scratches crotch. Spits) 

 

 

[JSSkinz]

2 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

So you’re criticizing Kirk for scoring 2 TDs when he was down 34-17 but giving Russell Wilson credit for winning a super bowl that his team was up 29-0 before he even scored a TD? And in RWs other SB he threw an INT In the end zone to lose the game. 
 

seems like pretty selective and biased reasoning

The point of saying that was that one guy has a clear history of winning championships and maintaining a high-level of success and the other guy doesn't.

 

Kirk can throw the ball just as good as Wilson but the difference in the two players is the intangibles, at least up until this point in Kirks career.

 

The Superbowl loss is what it is, he's been to 2 Superbowls already, he's a 6 time pro bowler and most likely a future Hall of Famer if he keeps doing what he's been doing for years. 

 

 

[wit33]

47 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

The point of saying that was that one guy has a clear history of winning championships and maintaining a high-level of success and the other guy doesn't.

 

Kirk can throw the ball just as good as Wilson but the difference in the two players is the intangibles, at least up until this point in Kirks career.

 

The Superbowl loss is what it is, he's been to 2 Superbowls already, he's a 6 time pro bowler and most likely a future Hall of Famer if he keeps doing what he's been doing for years. 

 

 

To latch on this discussion, this is completely subjective, but I rarely felt like Kirk reversed momentum of a game or stepped on throat of an opponent and blew them out the water. This is more-so, when with Skins when I watched every snap of him, but seems to be similar watching from afar with Vikings. Kirk against Seahawks had opportunities to blow the game open as the Seahawks were struggling to score in the first half and seize great momentum, especially after the defensive TD, but the score never was out of reach for the Seahawks. Wilson seized the momentum at an elite level in the 3rd quarter and the lead proved to be insurmountable. 

Totally own only watching 2-4 games of Kirk the last two seasons, so open to other perspectives. 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

52 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

exactly. Sonny would just get in there and manly his way to victory with only the hair on his balls and the whiskey in his blood to push him through. 
 

(scratches crotch. Spits) 

 

 

That was Billy....

[Berggy9598]

The regret is not signing him to a relatively cheap deal in 2015. By 2018 there wasn't a whole lot of options left.