Skinsinparadise Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 10 hours ago, bobandweave said: So did I until it became clear he was lying the past two seasons. Knowing that he waited for free agency since then and it was his plan all along (his words not mine) then I realized I had been worked and we all had been worked. That removed my belief in anything he said the past two seasons and showed we were all suckers to buy what he was selling We've been through this rodeo many times on Kirk so I don't want to debate. I'll just say this as much as you trash Bruce Allen. I do it, too. The Redskins are just a hobby for us. Imagine if your fate, contract, team building, future was all in his hands. And you didn't grow up a Redskins fan. And you were supposedly not always treated that nicely as to what is said about you to your agent by said team president including the public trashing last summer. And your agent told you, look there are other teams who will value you and are run much better. Would that really be that tough of a choice? Grant Paulsen who arguably knows Kirk better than any other media member summed it up succinctly. That is, only one reason why Kirk wasn't itching to come back -- Bruce Allen. 9 hours ago, bobandweave said: I don’t get this. Not that I don’t understand what your saying rather why you think that for this team that there isn’t always pressure to win now no matter what the QB age is. Truth is this is not a team like the Steelers who rarely change coaches or the Browns or Bengals who no matter if they lose or not they keep the coaches. This team is owned by a guy who isn’t afraid to make changes. The only way to keep things the same are to win. like I just posted to someone before your posts. If the idea here is this: A. Don't worry about championships. That's not happening here with Dan in charge. If you want this team to stay competitive that's your only hope to keep Jay. Than yeah it makes total sense. I have my heights higher than the 8-8 range and maybe once every 4 years we can sneak in the playoffs and lose in the first round. But if that's the Redskins new definition of glory -- then it was a good move. I am not to that degree cynical about ownership yet but I am not that far removed from it either. So I can be convinced of it. None of that is a hit on by the way Alex Smith but a hit on the roster. If I were Jacksonville or Minny, I'd like the move. But we don't have those rosters. 9 hours ago, bobandweave said: Is it something about Alex Smiths game that makes you feel that way or is it just his age? Alex is younger then Tom Brady Aaron Rodgers Drew Brees Eli Manning Phillip Rivers Ben R. You got 4 sure fire Hall of Famers in that list. Rivers and Eli maybe borderline. Eli has stunk for years now IMO. I've watched just about every game of his and the drop is very notciable. His play is a case in point. He's not that same. I like Alex but he's not even sniffing the hall of fame unless he has a major run with the Redskins. So he's not their caliber aside from Eli. We've acquired in trades for almost the same compensation 2 other 34 QBs -- Brunell and McNabb. Like Alex Smith, Brunell and McNabb relied a lot on their legs as a big part of their game. Alex as Cooley likes to point out takes his shares of hits and sacks. We've seen plenty of QBs drop off at 36. Some earlier than that. Some of the greats have played great beyond. As for where does Alex Smith fit in - you got me. I don't know. But I am just not banking on a long career for the dude. It's a wild card IMO. And heck the team that had the dude in house -- traded up to get a young QB and traded Alex. So I don't think I am going on some wild leap that Alex maybe isn't the next Drew Brees playing great into his late 30s. But again, I am not saying he won't be either. I don't think we have any clue. If you have a QB in their prime -- this is a lesser worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 9 hours ago, bobandweave said: I don’t get this. Not that I don’t understand what your saying rather why you think that for this team that there isn’t always pressure to win now no matter what the QB age is. Truth is this is not a team like the Steelers who rarely change coaches or the Browns or Bengals who no matter if they lose or not they keep the coaches. This team is owned by a guy who isn’t afraid to make changes. The only way to keep things the same are to win. Or changes are coming and people are going to be looking for jobs. The QB age doesn’t change or alter that Is it something about Alex Smiths game that makes you feel that way or is it just his age? Alex is younger then Tom Brady Aaron Rodgers Drew Brees Eli Manning Phillip Rivers Ben R. Today, and he is a year older then Matt Ryan who just signed a LTD. And the same age as Joe Flacco. The ages of starting QBs with the less hits they are taking and better training and healthly living are going longer then ever before. It user to be that at 33 a guy was almost over the hill but not anymore. Times have changed There is of course always pressure to win now. But there are different expectations. The point @Skinsinparadise is making - and has been for some time - is that the other approach to take after you let Kirk walk is to get a rookie QB and take some growing pain lumps as you build long term. That is a more patient approach than trading for an aging QB - and we can say 34 is not that old all day but the fact is he is on the wrong side of the middle of his NFL career. Providing that list of guys older does not help the case. Five of those QBs that are older won SBs with their teams. The other two guys Flacco - has not been good for a while but he did win a SB for his team. Ryan just got a contract but living here is Atl I can tell you the fans are not exactly thrilled. Some are of course. But many are concerned that he is not good enough to win a SB - but he at least got his team to the SB. Alex Smith is a decent QB but at least to this point he is not any of those guys. The trade itself reeks of desperation when in fairness there are other areas where they are being much more patient - a good thing to me. I did not and do not hate the trade - said so the day it was announced. But I can certainly see the argument for going young and using that extra CAP to build a team and let them grow together. If you had say even Colt starting with a young guy you could have easily had Hankins and Cromartie and had no CAP issues. This allows you to go QB in the 1st and not need a Payne. Yes it's a gamble but but if it fails miserably you will get another chance next year. And that's the point. The feeling is - fair or not - that Bruce engineered this in an attempt to save his job or at least save some face after botching things with Kirk Cousins. Not trying to start that conversation again - only as it pertains to this topic. The way it ended with Kirk had a major impact on this course of action over a more patient one. Again, I like Alex Smith. I think he is a good QB. And who knows, Jay does pretty well with QBs. Maybe this is the HC Alex needed. I will say it has been mentioned more than once that he is a more a true leader than Kirk. Hope he does amazing. I would love to see us in the POs and make some noise. But it's fair to suggest that a more patient approach would be more long lasting. And I believe that is at the center of SIPs point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer_FFX Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 11 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said: At least with Alex he doesn't throw interceptions at the worst possible time. They replayed the Vikings game recently and Kirk threw a pick at the end of the second quarter. I won't be sorry to not see that this season. Besides, Kirk didn't want to be here. Yeah, he was happy to take all those millions under the tags, and wait to hit free agency. I agree there. Kirk was also third in the league in fumbles with 13.... Looking forward to Alex hopefully taking care of the ball more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 16 minutes ago, Enforcer_FFX said: I agree there. Kirk was also third in the league in fumbles with 13.... Looking forward to Alex hopefully taking care of the ball more. Assuming the oline stays relatively healthy (especially compared to last year), and considering the skill positions are far better this year (on paper... and if health isn’t a major problem), fumbles should be way down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 4 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I don't know how Kirk was supposed to handle this thing any differently. He earned his free agency, prior to that he pretty much said "I'd be happy to stay in Washington if we can work out a deal". Even if he felt this way, which I do not believe, are you saying he would have been better off saying publically "yeah I'm on the first bus out of this dump but not before milking the owner for every nickle I am entitled to". Would that have made you feel better? Maybe you can refresh my memory on this but can you name another player who stated after leaving his former team being so bold as to say he had lied for the past two years about wanting to stay on his former team like Kirk did? I don’t recall that ever happening. The idea that Kirk was some class act here is nonsense and made up bs. Those words prove he had no class. Even saying I agree with your point if he had to say what he did the past two seasons there was no reason for him to be saying that when he’s on his new team. It’s classless and immature. Most players leave a team and thank the former team for giving him a chance. Players moving around the league happens all the time. But yet this piece of crap had to take the opportunity to bury this team the first chance he got for his own ego. That does not happen with other guys. That takes a special kind of stupid to do. Which is why no one that really knew Kirk Cousins personally thanked him and wished him well in the future unlike how guys like Alex Smith are respected. Kirk didn’t earn the respect of those closest to him and that speaks of his character. Us fans looking in only see what we can see. When those closest to the player obviously don’t like him there are real problems we don’t see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 4 hours ago, goskins10 said: There is of course always pressure to win now. But there are different expectations. The point @Skinsinparadise is making - and has been for some time - is that the other approach to take after you let Kirk walk is to get a rookie QB and take some growing pain lumps as you build long term. That is a more patient approach than trading for an aging QB - and we can say 34 is not that old all day but the fact is he is on the wrong side of the middle of his NFL career. This point I don’t get. Alex Smith just had his best professional year of his career last season. What difference does it make to anyone if the guy is playing at a pro bowl level about the next guy up? This is a process, his age is not the indicator that the next guy has to be groomed right now and the approach doesn’t jive with what the formula for success today. It’s not time to bury Alex Smith. It’s also bad timing to have drafted his successor this year The formula for the teams that don’t have hall of fame coaches is to build up the rest of the team first then draft a first round QB when it’s time. This worked for many teams the past few years. This provides a team a huge massive salary cap discount provided they can’t get with other players. This is the fundamental window that teams talk about. The outlook for QBs drafted outside of the first two rounds of the draft is so bad it makes little sense to draft them. Taking a QB at the top of the draft this season would have been idiotic. No one knows how long Alex Smith has left. Which means drafting someone makes no sense. Alex Smith is more pro ready then any of the QBs drafted and this is an older team. And with what they gave for him, a one year slot corner it was a huge win for them doing this. 4 hours ago, goskins10 said: Providing that list of guys older does not help the case. Five of those QBs that are older won SBs with their teams. The other two guys Flacco - has not been good for a while but he did win a SB for his team. Ryan just got a contract but living here is Atl I can tell you the fans are not exactly thrilled. Some are of course. But many are concerned that he is not good enough to win a SB - but he at least got his team to the SB. You and SIP cracked me up with this stuff about those QBs being HOF or SB QBs stuff. I guess to you both the only thing showing a QB could play well late in his life are those accolades which flies in the face of logic. Josh McCown last year at age 38 took the Jets to five wins when Vegas was taking bets that team couldn’t win two games last season. Other QBs have played well after age 34 who weren’t HOF or SB winning QBs. Do you only judge QB play based on team accomplishments? 4 hours ago, goskins10 said: Alex Smith is a decent QB but at least to this point he is not any of those guys. The trade itself reeks of desperation when in fairness there are other areas where they are being much more patient - a good thing to me. Completely disagree. Like not even close to being accurate. Look at the trades for these college QBs and tell me that you would rather take a gamble on an unknown for tons of future capital versus losing a one year of proven play slot corner? Yea I know they gave up a third round pick as well but they also got one back so Alex Smith for Kendall Fuller was a home run for us. Not even close. There was nothing desperate about this. Unless your delusional and think that Colt McCoy was the answer or taking a huge plunge into the draft for someone which moving up from 13 to top five would have cost a hell of a lot more then just Fuller. That was smart and we will all applaud them for this in time just wait. You guys are writing the end to this story without letting it play out and claiming to support Alex Smith, doesn’t compute to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Monk Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 4 hours ago, goskins10 said: Again, I like Alex Smith. I think he is a good QB. And who knows, Jay does pretty well with QBs. Maybe this is the HC Alex needed. I will say it has been mentioned more than once that he is a more a true leader than Kirk. Hope he does amazing. I would love to see us in the POs and make some noise. But it's fair to suggest that a more patient approach would be more long lasting. And I believe that is at the center of SIPs point. Point noted, but it's a futile one at this point (pardon the pun). Other alternative routes were available, and they chose the one they did. I for one am looking forward, and not weeping for yesteryear in the rear mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 28 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said: Point noted, but it's a futile one at this point (pardon the pun). Other alternative routes were available, and they chose the one they did. I for one am looking forward, and not weeping for yesteryear in the rear mirror. LOL Not "weeping" for yesteryear or "looking in the rear mirror" - where do you guys come up with stuff? too funny. I was responding to a post that continues to miss the point someone was trying to make about how we got here. Not meaning you ie - the rest is not directed at you, but more to others who it applies to. Just using this post to go off of. It seems people go to the extremes and never want to see there is a middle of the road. From day one @Skinsinparadise has said he wished they would have gone the route of youth over an aging QB. One is a better short term solution but the other offers more in a long term solution. Having said that - it seems no matter how many times he or I, or anyone else with a different idea than this was the most awesome trade in the history of the Redskins says we like the guy and am looking forward to a great season - that gets completely missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 39 minutes ago, bobandweave said: This point I don’t get. Alex Smith just had his best professional year of his career last season. What difference does it make to anyone if the guy is playing at a pro bowl level about the next guy up? This is a process, his age is not the indicator that the next guy has to be groomed right now and the approach doesn’t jive with what the formula for success today. It’s not time to bury Alex Smith. It’s also bad timing to have drafted his successor this year It's clear you don't get the point. That is why we keep trying to help you understand. I do not say this to be ugly but just not sure where you are going with the next sentence. Was that meant to be rhetorical/sarcastic? If that is the case it still misses the point that there is a short term and a long term process. It has nothing to do with Alex himself other than he is 34 and on the later side of his career. The team gave up resources in a 3rd pick and are paying him almost what they would have paid Kirk when they could have paid a rookie they are developing a whole lot less and put a better team around him. And yes, short term Alex is a better shot. But he is a very short term solution. Can they still develop someone behind him? Of course they can. But it feels knee jerk, not a thought out plan. You can disagree which is fine but that's the way it looks to me. 39 minutes ago, bobandweave said: The formula for the teams that don’t have hall of fame coaches is to build up the rest of the team first then draft a first round QB when it’s time. This worked for many teams the past few years. This provides a team a huge massive salary cap discount provided they can’t get with other players. This is the fundamental window that teams talk about. The outlook for QBs drafted outside of the first two rounds of the draft is so bad it makes little sense to draft them. Taking a QB at the top of the draft this season would have been idiotic. No one knows how long Alex Smith has left. Which means drafting someone makes no sense. Alex Smith is more pro ready then any of the QBs drafted and this is an older team. And with what they gave for him, a one year slot corner it was a huge win for them doing this. First, I get you disagree but "idiotic" is not necessary. We are just talking here. The superlatives add nothing to the conversation. I do agree that after you make the Alex trade there is no way you take a QB. I had the Redskins in our Mock draft and since we had Alex, I honestly barely looked at QBs. There was one in particular had he made it to 13 I may have had to take him - but it was never going to happen. However, the point here was that you draft a QB high instead of making the trade, not along with it. That really is the whole point. And the "formula" for teams to win SBs is all over the place. But they either have great QBs or a great D. They have to have at least one of the two. As far as how they get there - it's all over the place. But for the most part it's pretty split with many teams at least trying to get a QB first to they have time to develop. Also, I have come to the conclusion that since Joe Gibbs won 3 SBs with 3 different QBs, we as Redskins fans look at QB differently. But that could just be a perception. 39 minutes ago, bobandweave said: You and SIP cracked me up with this stuff about those QBs being HOF or SB QBs stuff. I guess to you both the only thing showing a QB could play well late in his life are those accolades which flies in the face of logic. Josh McCown last year at age 38 took the Jets to five wins when Vegas was taking bets that team couldn’t win two games last season. Other QBs have played well after age 34 who weren’t HOF or SB winning QBs. Do you only judge QB play based on team accomplishments? Again you miss the point. No one is saying Alex is dead in the water. No one is even saying Alex is a bad QB. As a matter of fact, both Sip and I, and many many others have said he is a good QB. Had a great season. Which BTW doesn't it make you wonder why after such a great season Reid was still ready to move Alex. That's because outside a few guys that are in the HOF or very likely to get there very soon, the rest show a distinct drop off in product the further they get into their 30s and he maximized his value in a trade. Something we could not do. Could Alex buck that trend? Of course. None of this is a science. It's funny you are willing to judge Alex by his numbers but I distinctly remember you judging Kirk based on the team wins - regardless of how he performed. He either wins or he doesn't. Just a note. I can't speak for SIP - but for me the point was all the QBs you mentioned have already won SBs and are getting paid because they are their teams franchise QBs. In fact another thing all those QBs except Drew Brees have in common is that they are all on the same team that drafted them. That tells you how important it is to draft your QB. You get 4 yrs of a rookie salary and let them grow. 39 minutes ago, bobandweave said: Completely disagree. Like not even close to being accurate. Look at the trades for these college QBs and tell me that you would rather take a gamble on an unknown for tons of future capital versus losing a one year of proven play slot corner? Yea I know they gave up a third round pick as well but they also got one back so Alex Smith for Kendall Fuller was a home run for us. Not even close. There was nothing desperate about this. Unless your delusional and think that Colt McCoy was the answer or taking a huge plunge into the draft for someone which moving up from 13 to top five would have cost a hell of a lot more then just Fuller. That was smart and we will all applaud them for this in time just wait. You guys are writing the end to this story without letting it play out and claiming to support Alex Smith, doesn’t compute to me You re more than willing to disagree - but that does not make it inaccurate. We seem to go through this a lot as you insist on presenting your opinion as fact. Saying it's "inaccurate" implies a factual truth. You do not have a factual truth here. It is your opinion that the trade was not desperation. In fairness you are not alone. However, to me it at least appears desperate even it were not. And I am most certainly not alone in that opinion. No one has ever suggested that McCoy was the answer. That is your own delusion. And no one said move up to take a QB. But let's look at that. There was Lamar Jackson available at 13. Actually could have moved down and take him. Or you could have moved to 10 and take Josh Rosen. Would not need a ransom to move from 13 to 10. In fact that same 3rd rd pick may have just done it - ,aybe a 6th to go with it. Let's say you want to move to 7 and take Josh Allen. You could get there with a 2nd and 7th probably. Had they not traded for Smith, they could have spent more on Hankins and Cromartie and had two positions covered and a young QB to build on. Colt starts the season and yields to the young guy part way through most likely. Or Colt plays well and the young guy starts next year. For me - and let me be clear - it's just my opinion - this is a more patient approach that lays the longer term youth foundation. With Alex, you are very likely going to have to make that type of decision in just a few years. In the end it is what it is. Again, I do not hate the trade. I really like Alex. I expect him to be really good at least this season and next. My concern is we will be right back here in a 2 to 3 yrs with a QB problem again. Might still have even with a rookie QB. But at least there would have been a better chance of having a guy for the next 8 to 10 yrs+. 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Skinsinparadise Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 33 minutes ago, goskins10 said: No one is saying Alex is dead in the water. No one is even saying Alex is a bad QB. As a matter of fact, both Sip and I, and many many others have said he is a good QB. Had a great season. Which BTW doesn't it make you wonder why after such a great season Reid was still ready to move Alex. That's because outside a few guys that are in the HOF or very likely to get there very soon, the rest show a distinct drop off in product the further they get into their 30s and he maximized his value in a trade. Something we could not do. Could Alex buck that trend? Of course. None of this is a science. It's funny you are willing to judge Alex by his numbers but I distinctly remember you judging Kirk based on the team wins - regardless of how he performed. He either wins or he doesn't. Just a note. I can't speak for SIP - but for me the point was all the QBs you mentioned have already won SBs and are getting paid because they are their teams franchise QBs. In fact another thing all those QBs except Drew Brees have in common is that they are all on the same team that drafted them. That tells you how important it is to draft your QB. You get 4 yrs of a rookie salary and let them grow. Good points. As for Alex Smith my point is 50-50. Is he one of many examples of QBs losing it in his mid to late 30s -- a heck a lot of QBs retire at that age for that reason or even before that or he is one of those to make it another 4-5 years or so. To presume that a QB in his later 30s is much more likely to keep than lose his fast ball is comical. Its a crap shoot. And I am not even doubling down on the point that he loses his fastball. I am saying I got no idea one way or another. I don't care how much some one loves or doesn't love Alex Smith -- I just don't see how you can say dude this guy is the same player at 37 or for that matter he won't be. It can go either way. If only there was an example of what another team would do with Alex Smith apples to apples? Heck just by chance there is. If Andy Reid thought its like money in the bank that Alex Smith would be the same until his later 30s -- why bother to replace him? It's not like he got lucky and a young QB fell in his lap in the draft -- but he actually traded multiple picks to trade up for Mahomes. Either he was worried about Alex's age or he wasn't in love with the player? I think Reid did love the player so I am betting its him not wanting to put all his chips on Alex Smith being the same guy as he gets older. This point isn't exactly setting the world on fire with a wild leap of logic. The idea that its a mystery whether a mid to late 30 year old QB could lose it versus keep his stuff is practically a cliche let alone a controversial point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Which is more desperate, trading up and giving away high draft picks to land one of the top 5 QB's in the 2018 draft or getting Alex? I would say trading away picks would be more desperate, just my opinion. Alex buys us time so that we didn't have to give away the farm and he possibly gives us a chance to win now. Regardless, we HAVE to draft a QB in one of the next 2 offseasons. The nice thing is that now we can take on a project as long as Alex can maintain for at least 2 or 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 We gave up the equivalent of a 3rd round pick and a first round pick -- judging by K. Fuller's talent or at worst I'd say Fuller is a 2nd round equivalent. Josh Rosen landed just a few picks ahead of ours. We wouldn't have had to give up a kings ransom, and we'd have gotten a young guy and on the cheap. But again I am getting a vibe from some of these posts about Alex Smith and understand people's position better. Yeah if I am in the premise of stay competitive for now versus Eagles 2016 style take a step back to take a step forward soon after -- we played this perfectly. And I don't mean it sarcastically. If I accept the fact that Superbowls are just something from the past. Lets just be relevant. That's enough. Or Jay can't survive a step back-step forward drill. Then the Alex Smith trade is a godsend/brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 You want the QB to have confidence in himself. One last comment about Kirk, if RGIII had worked out, Kirk would've been a career backup, so yes he owes his career to the Redskins who gave him a chance. His arrogance is too much for me and I am glad he's moved on. I am glad we have Alex and I am looking forward to his success this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 9 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I don't know how Kirk was supposed to handle this thing any differently. He earned his free agency, prior to that he pretty much said "I'd be happy to stay in Washington if we can work out a deal". Even if he felt this way, which I do not believe, are you saying he would have been better off saying publically "yeah I'm on the first bus out of this dump but not before milking the owner for every nickle I am entitled to". Would that have made you feel better? We don't really know how Kirk felt he was always too disciplined to tell us. Every public utterance was positive. His father gave us a clue after the Skins failed to secure a long-term deal after 2016 season when he said Kirk wasn't going to sign at any price but Kirk was always publicly positive and we don't have a clue if he was telling Snyder I want out. Publicly he said nice things about Snyder and Allen and patched up Allen's press release PR fumble. I don't what Kirk could have said or done that would have been more disciplined or professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: But again I am getting a vibe from some of these posts about Alex Smith and understand people's position better. Yeah if I am in the premise of stay competitive for now versus Eagles 2016 style take a step back to take a step forward soon after -- we played this perfectly. I would have been fine drafting a QB this year but giving away picks to move up to a spot where we could get a really talented QB was what scared me so I can see both sides of the argument. If Alex stinks then you're right, it will be a disaster and we will quickly be in desperation mode sooner rather than later, it's really all about how he plays over the next 2 years if you're judging whether the FO made the right choice or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, JSSkinz said: I would have been fine drafting a QB this year but giving away picks to move up to a spot where we could get a really talented QB was what scared me so I can see both sides of the argument. If Alex stinks then you're right, it will be a disaster and we will quickly be in desperation mode sooner rather than later, it's really all about how he plays over the next 2 years if you're judging whether the FO made the right choice or not. I don't think Alex Smith will stink. He will likely be good. The pressure to me is zero on Alex Smith. It's on the supporting cast. Like I said if Alex was playing in Minny or Jacksonville I'd love the trade. For me thinking about it purely in the context of the trade. We need Jordan Reed to stay healthy. And hopefully Derrius Guice is who I think he is. On defense, hopefully our secondary works out. That's where the pressure is. Alex Smith had an incredible RB and the best deep threat in the league last year along with one of the best TEs -- I don't think it was an accident that he had the season of his life. Our version of having killer players like that to me starts with Jordan Reed. If Reed barely plays this year -- its going to be tough for Alex to take this team far IMO. Kirk went to a team that is loaded everywhere. Alex went to a team that isn't loaded everywhere. So I got my doubts that 3 years later we will look back at that trade and say man what a great run that was -- for that it wasn't worth grooming a young QB, etc. If I were the owner, I'd tell Jay look I trust you -- you have the reputation of being one of the better QB gurus in the league. The Bengals were competitive right away with Dalton (2nd round pick) but I'll give you sometime to develop our next franchise QB -- who do you like? I wouldn't go look dude, next year its playoffs or bust just find a QB who can hopefully get you there -- and we will worry about the future later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 43 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said: We don't really know how Kirk felt he was always to disciplined to tell us. Every public utterance was positive. His father gave us a clue after the Skins failed to secure a long term deal after the 2016 when he said Kirk wasn't going to sign at any price but Kirk was always publicly positive and we don't have a clue if he was telling Snyder I want out. Publicly he said nice things about Snyder and Allen and patched up Allen's press release PR fumble. I don't what Kirk could have said or done that would have been more disciplined or professional. Kirk stayed above the fray. The leaks would come through other parties. Grant Paulsen who was close to him would say stuff look I probably shouldn't be saying this but this. And other beat guys the same especially Mike Jones. And the guy who wrote the SI article, etc. The picture that was painted was Kirk didn't like Bruce Allen. He didn't like how Scot was treated. How Shanny was treated. He didn't think the organization was classy. As for competence -- he thought the organization was OK on that front but limited. The idea that some have that Kirk should have just accepted his fate was destined to play for a Team President he didn't like or trusted -- I don't get that -- why should he? I get as fans we are Redskin fans through thick and thin -- Dan, Cerrato, Zorn, Bruce or whomever is running the ship. But as a player why would you have to accept that when you can play for a better team and for a FO you actually liked and trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 The third paragraph really gets to the heart of who Alex Smith was as a player pretty much his whole career until last season. Other than Tyreek Hill's emergence, maybe this is the biggest reason for the switch that seemed to flip for him last year (it might have taken a season or two for the lesson he learned to sink in)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 1 hour ago, goskins10 said: It's clear you don't get the point. That is why we keep trying to help you understand. I do not say this to be ugly but just not sure where you are going with the next sentence. Was that meant to be rhetorical/sarcastic? If that is the case it still misses the point that there is a short term and a long term process. It has nothing to do with Alex himself other than he is 34 and on the later side of his career. The team gave up resources in a 3rd pick and are paying him almost what they would have paid Kirk when they could have paid a rookie they are developing a whole lot less and put a better team around him. Short and Long term plans... Plan A. Alex Smith, loss of third round pick later got another in this draft through trade, loss of Fuller. QB just turned 34 this year. Coming off a pro bowl season. Last five seasons starting won 50 games. Likely to get three seasons or more starting out of him and at a diminishing possible age but only speculation about that Plan B. Play Colt McCoy a season, trade up in the draft to get a QB. Loss of many draft picks. Unlikely to get a quality season from either QB this season. Losses unknown. Money, draft picks lost. Outcome could cripple franchise for years or could lead to Super Bowl titles. Or anything in between completely unknown. Plan C. Sign another FA QB. Where any better then Alex Smith? No. Other options could have cost them future draft picks where as Alex Smith did not. Sign D. Not trade up in the draft for a QB. On the board at pick 13 was Lamar Jackson and Mason Rudolph. Are either of these guys better then Alex Smith? No. I have the opinion that given those options it is clear that the best option for this team at this moment in time was without a doubt choosing Alex Smith. Next year this teams teams already got 11 draft picks instead of the usual seven. If your trading up in the draft for a QB having those helps. Not choosing other options then Alex Smith helped them the most long term. Not trading picks next year was thinking long term. I don’t buy the short term thinking and I don’t buy the bs about Cousins either. He wasn’t an option. So long term best option at that moment in time where they were in Alex Smith was the best long term and short term option. Quote And yes, short term Alex is a better shot. But he is a very short term solution. Can they still develop someone behind him? Of course they can. But it feels knee jerk, not a thought out plan. You can disagree which is fine but that's the way it looks to me. And that is how it looks to me Quote First, I get you disagree but "idiotic" is not necessary. We are just talking here. The superlatives add nothing to the conversation. My apology for that not personal I’m sorry I wasn’t calling you an idiot and I’m sorry Quote And the "formula" for teams to win SBs is all over the place. But they either have great QBs or a great D. They have to have at least one of the two. Nah I don’t agree. When I hear great I think like the 85 Bears Defense not the Eagles Defense in 2017 or when I think great QBs I don’t think about Nick Foles same year either. It’s rare when the best offense or best defense makes it to the super bowl. Not a common thing. Quote Again you miss the point. No one is saying Alex is dead in the water. No one is even saying Alex is a bad QB. As a matter of fact, both Sip and I, and many many others have said he is a good QB. Had a great season. Which BTW doesn't it make you wonder why after such a great season Reid was still ready to move Alex. Andy Reid and the Chiefs are on the record admitting they moved him for the salary cap not because they were done with him. Let’s stop with the bs. All anyone has to do is look at the Chiefs cap issues or read about the surprising move up for Mahomes in the draft to know why Alex isn’t still with the Chiefs Quote That's because outside a few guys that are in the HOF or very likely to get there very soon, the rest show a distinct drop off in product the further they get into their 30s and he maximized his value in a trade. Something we could not do. Could Alex buck that trend? Of course. None of this is a science. So the chiefs maximized value trading Alex Smith to the Redskins? The Browns offered players and a second round pick for Alex Smith The Broncos offered a second round pick and Aqib Talib for Alex Smith The Redskins offered a third round pick and a former third round draft pick with one year of playing tape. That year he was opposite of Josh Norman and Brusad Breeland. The Redskins weren’t the best deal offered Quote It's funny you are willing to judge Alex by his numbers but I distinctly remember you judging Kirk based on the team wins - regardless of how he performed. He either wins or he doesn't. Just a note. You should update your notes Three men can say they won 50 games the past five NFL seasons. Alex Smith, Tom Brady, and Russell Wilson. Alex Smith led the NFL last year in passer rating. Whats not to like? Wins and stats Quote I can't speak for SIP - but for me the point was all the QBs you mentioned have already won SBs and are getting paid because they are their teams franchise QBs. In fact another thing all those QBs except Drew Brees have in common is that they are all on the same team that drafted them. That tells you how important it is to draft your QB. You get 4 yrs of a rookie salary and let them grow. So a short term deal can’t make someone a teams franchise QB? Kirk Cousins was drafted, he grew, and he left. You couldn’t make him stay, the team couldn’t either none of us including me could have done that. he left. And he left for a three year contract. Short term deal makes him a franchise QB. Not the same for Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: Good points. As for Alex Smith my point is 50-50. Is he one of many examples of QBs losing it in his mid to late 30s -- a heck a lot of QBs retire at that age for that reason or even before that or he is one of those to make it another 4-5 years or so. To presume that a QB in his later 30s is much more likely to keep than lose his fast ball is comical. Its a crap shoot. And I am not even doubling down on the point that he loses his fastball. I am saying I got no idea one way or another. I don't care how much some one loves or doesn't love Alex Smith -- I just don't see how you can say dude this guy is the same player at 37 or for that matter he won't be. It can go either way. If only there was an example of what another team would do with Alex Smith apples to apples? Heck just by chance there is. If Andy Reid thought its like money in the bank that Alex Smith would be the same until his later 30s -- why bother to replace him? It's not like he got lucky and a young QB fell in his lap in the draft -- but he actually traded multiple picks to trade up for Mahomes. Either he was worried about Alex's age or he wasn't in love with the player? I think Reid did love the player so I am betting its him not wanting to put all his chips on Alex Smith being the same guy as he gets older See this is where you and I disagree. https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/02/23/nfl-free-agency-2018-salary-cap-cuts-casualties Entering free agency the chiefs had 12k on the books. They traded Alex Smith for salary cap relief. Yes they like Mahomes but them trading up for a QB and specifically his salary versus what they had to pay Smith with a ledger like that was a smart move for them. They knew this when they traded up for Mahomes and was the reason why they made the switch. The bs about Reid’s lack of love for Alex Smith wasn’t the deciding factor in this at all. In fact Andy Reid has high praise for Alex Smith https://www.denverpost.com/2018/03/27/andy-reid-kansas-city-chiefs-coaches-breakfast/ This was a financial driven decision https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2018/01/31/chiefs-trade-of-smith-opens-door-for-mahomes-fills-needs/109982886/ The Redskins were in need of a good starting QB. They had money and didn’t need to take a risk (draft pick) or take a lesser QB in free agency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: Short and Long term plans... Plan A. Alex Smith, loss of third round pick later got another in this draft through trade, loss of Fuller. QB just turned 34 this year. Coming off a pro bowl season. Last five seasons starting won 50 games. Likely to get three seasons or more starting out of him and at a diminishing possible age but only speculation about that Given where they sere with Kirk this was not a bad option. And I have been on record multiple times even in our discussion that I don't hate this trade. I am just not I n love with it. And I believe you may be underestimating the impact of losing Fuller and a 3rd pick. Had they kept both, they do not need to sign Cromartie (which we didn't) or Scandrick (Which we did - albeit for peanuts) for that matter. Hankins can get signed more easily. But again, it's not a bad trade just not the one I would have made. 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: Plan B. Play Colt McCoy a season, trade up in the draft to get a QB. Loss of many draft picks. Unlikely to get a quality season from either QB this season. Losses unknown. Money, draft picks lost. Outcome could cripple franchise for years or could lead to Super Bowl titles. Or anything in between completely unknown. I think I demonstrated that there would not be a loss of "many" picks to trade up the few spots you need to get one of the Josh's. Considering we would have kept our 3rd. we just lose the same pick but not Kendall Fuller to get to 10. As for Comp picks by signing Hankins, then it would have been a good idea to tender Breeland as it keeps you at 4 comp picks. Cost was almost a wash - maybe even less. Cripple the franchise for years? Not seeing that at all. . Again, I already demonstrated it could be done without much negative impact. Even if you throw in a 2nd and a 3rd - not needed but let's just pretend - that's one extra pick and one less player lost. Comps are virtually the same. And with $18M/yr in extra CAP space. Not seeing how that cripples the team. As for what kind of play you get out of either - Jay is very good with QBs. I would expect at least average platy. With the extra money and a few other quality players I could see it being at worst a wash. 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: Plan C. Sign another FA QB. Where any better then Alex Smith? No. Other options could have cost them future draft picks where as Alex Smith did not. I would never do this. I agree Alex was best FA QB lut there - well except the one we couldn't sign... 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: Sign D. Not trade up in the draft for a QB. On the board at pick 13 was Lamar Jackson and Mason Rudolph. Are either of these guys better then Alex Smith? No. Coming out of college? No. But could they be as good or better? Time will tell. But we get to try them at $18M/yr less, keeping our stud slot CB and our 3rd draft pick. I personally like those odds. 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: I have the opinion that given those options it is clear that the best option for this team at this moment in time was without a doubt choosing Alex Smith. Next year this teams already got 11 draft picks instead of the usual seven. If your trading up in the draft for a QB having those helps. Not choosing other options then Alex Smith helped them the most long term. Not trading picks next year was thinking long term. I don’t buy the short term thinking and I don’t buy the bs about Cousins either. He wasn’t an option. So long term best option at that moment in time where they were in Alex Smith was the best long term and short term option. No sure what "bs" you are talking about. I have been factual or made it clear when it's my opinion. So you need o be more specific. I will address what I think you are referring to. Is it the "paying him close to what they could have paid Kirk"? He just got a contract from Minn for $87M for 3 yrs fully guaranteed. That's $29M/yr. The team is paying Alex $23.5M/yr. So that's about $5.5M/yr different. So fair enough, close to is probably a bit off. However, they had several chances too sign him for the same or less money than Alex and blew it. I know you think Kirk would never have signed here no matter what. And that may be right. But I know for a fact that Kirks side offer a few contracts in the years leading up to this. You still have 11 picks next year if you still need a QB. So not seeing Alex helping long term there. You are paying a lot more than a rookie. SO not seeing the long term there, or short term actually. He is a proven starter so that is a short term. But I know you do not think so, but he is getting old for an NFL QB. Nature will always win. 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: And that is how it looks to me My apology for that not personal I’m sorry I wasn’t calling you an idiot and I’m sorry Fair enough. 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: Nah I don’t agree. When I hear great I think like the 85 Bears Defense not the Eagles Defense in 2017 or when I think great QBs I don’t think about Nick Foles same year either. It’s rare when the best offense or best defense makes it to the super bowl. Not a common thing. Never said the best. Just a really good one or the other. 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: Andy Reid and the Chiefs are on the record admitting they moved him for the salary cap not because they were done with him. Let’s stop with the bs. All anyone has to do is look at the Chiefs cap issues or read about the surprising move up for Mahomes in the draft to know why Alex isn’t still with the Chiefs It he wanted him he would have made it work. They decided to move on. Doesn't raise value much to tell everyone I think he headed down wo I am letting him go. They had cap issues but they could have made it work. 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: So the chiefs maximized value trading Alex Smith to the Redskins? The Browns offered players and a second round pick for Alex Smith The Broncos offered a second round pick and Aqib Talib for Alex Smith The Redskins offered a third round pick and a former third round draft pick with one year of playing tape. That year he was opposite of Josh Norman and Brusad Breeland. This time the Redskins didn’t overpay and were not the best offer on the table. I never said the Skins over paid. Never even close to that statement. Ried did get more out of Alex than this team got out of Kirk. SO sorry if the term "maximized" was not perfect. They got good value out of him and that was the point - as opposed to not a thing. 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: You should update your notes Three men can say they won 50 games the past five NFL seasons. Tom Brady, and Russell Wilson. Alex Smith led the NFL last year in passer rating Whats not to like? The conversation was about POs and SBs. Not regular season wins. But Ok he won some games and I truly hope he wins games here - a lot of them. Not sure the point here. 4 minutes ago, bobandweave said: So a short term deal can’t make someone a winner or a teams franchise QB? Kirk Cousins was drafted, he grew, and he left. You couldn’t make him stay, the team couldn’t either none of us including me could have stayed he left. And he left for a three year contract. Short term deal makes him a franchise QB. Not the same for Alex You are responding to things I never said. I will move on from the rest. I have a tee time coming up anyway. 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Skinsinparadise Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 39 minutes ago, bobandweave said: The bs about Reid’s lack of love for Alex Smith wasn’t the deciding factor in this at all. In fact Andy Reid has high praise for Alex Smith I flat out said I don't think its because Reid doesn't love Alex. So not sure what you are arguing against. Yeah I've seen Reid talk about the cap. I've also heard him saying more than once Alex isn't getting younger. Andy Reid is classy as it gets. He's not going to throw any player under the bus. He's not going to kick in -- the he's not getting any younger with a negative segue along with it. Saying multiple times, he's not getting younger -- I don't think is some random coincidence. He was stating the obvious. But regardless my main issue with the Alex Smith isn't anything to do with what the Chiefs think of him or for that matter about Alex Smith period. It's about trading for a 34 year old and having what I believe (if you don't believe it that's fine to each their own) is likely a 2-3 year window to win a championship or do something that we haven't done under Danny actually win 2 playoff games. Maybe I can see 1 playoff win as worthwhile. But if what we getting is a 8-8, 9-7 run and maybe sneak one appearance in the playoffs and lose. It's to me wasted time if we can build this team with a new-young QB. But if a run like that represents the new version of Redskins paradise then OK like I said if that's the perspective than fine. I am just not at that point where I've given up on their ability to win a SB again. Maybe I'll become that cynical soon but I am not there yet. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/alex-smith-doesnt-sound-like-he-expects-to-be-playing-for-the-chiefs-much-longer/ "The reality is that Alex isn't getting any younger," Reid said. "That doesn't mean he can't go on and continue to go out and have a great career, so that's what where his focus is. He's far enough along in it, 'OK, I know what you had to do, I'm not getting any younger, but go watch what I'm going to do right now.' That's how we roll. That's the name of this league. It's not a personal thing, that's not where we go with it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, goskins10 said: Given where they sere with Kirk this was not a bad option. And I have been on record multiple times even in our discussion that I don't hate this trade. I am just not I n love with it. And I believe you may be underestimating the impact of losing Fuller and a 3rd pick. Had they kept both, they do not need to sign Cromartie (which we didn't) or Scandrick (Which we did - albeit for peanuts) for that matter. Hankins can get signed more easily. But again, it's not a bad trade just not the one I would have made. Okay that’s fine but let’s get real. Hankins? Cromartie? Why are you mentioning these guys? Let’s stick to the guys in this 3 minutes ago, goskins10 said: I think I demonstrated that there would not be a loss of "many" picks to trade up the few spots you need to get one of the Josh's. 1. What it would have taken is unknown 2. Are either Joshs better then Alex Smith this year? No. Will they ever be? Unknown but odds are against them ever being as good or better 3. None of this matters because having 20/20 hindsight is not real, that’s make believe. You didn’t know what it would have taken if they went into the draft with a clear need for a QB or how that may have changed things. It could have been really bad like the Redskins trading a fortune for the move up as much as your view. No one knows how it could have gone 3 minutes ago, goskins10 said: Considering we would have kept our 3rd. we just lose the same pick but not Kendall Fuller to get to 10. As for Comp picks by signing Hankins, then it would have been a good idea to tender Breeland as it keeps you at 4 comp picks. Cost was almost a wash - maybe even less. Cripple the franchise for years? Not seeing that at all. . Can you share the future with me? I would love to know how it could have gone if they passed on Alex Smith trade in January. Thank you for pointing out the best possible scenario but rarely things go the best way possible 3 minutes ago, goskins10 said: No sure what "bs" you are talking about. I have been factual or made it clear when it's my opinion. I dont sense that from your post above about how much it could have cost going a different direction like that. To be clear you mention signing Hankins and the idea that everything would have played out your way instead of us hearing something else like them moving up to pick 4 and what that would have cost. 3 minutes ago, goskins10 said: So you need o be more specific. I will address what I think you are referring to. Is it the "paying him close to what they could have paid Kirk"? He just got a contract from Minn for $87M for 3 yrs fully guaranteed. That's $29M/yr. The team is paying Alex $23.5M/yr. So that's about $5.5M/yr different. So fair enough, close to is probably a bit off. However, they had several chances too sign him for the same or less money than Alex and blew it. I know you think Kirk would never have signed here no matter what. And that may be right. But I know for a fact that Kirks side offer a few contracts in the years leading up to this. To be clear my opinion is the team doesnt offer two one year top 5 paid seasons and not trade a guy by the trade deadline and it mean they weren’t going to sign him long term. The teams only real shot was in 2016 then Kirk played the tag game, went on his PR tour saying he wanted to stay, then on radio row before the Super Bowl made it clear he was leaving. It didnt go the way anyone wanted but Kirk. So they moved on and had some options and took the best one. 3 minutes ago, goskins10 said: It he wanted him he would have made it work. They decided to move on. Doesn't raise value much to tell everyone I think he headed down wo I am letting him go. They had cap issues but they could have made it work. They had less then 20k in the black. No they had to move Alex Smith 3 minutes ago, goskins10 said: I never said the Skins over paid. Never even close to that statement. Ried did get more out of Alex than this team got out of Kirk. SO sorry if the term "maximized" was not perfect. They got good value out of him and that was the point - as opposed to not a thing. You think they knew Kirk was gone this offseason and didn’t try and trade him. Like they were all asleep at the wheel. I don’t think that. I think they wanted to keep him and planned to keep him. They underestimated his cost and other teams wanting him and screwed up. They were offered trades for him during the draft and at the trade deadline and just said No. looking back that was stupid. And some of the blame goes to Kirk. Other players tell teams they are leaving early so they can get a trade done. Not in Kirk’s makeup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 If we knew in February that Josh Rosen would fall to 10 then hell yeah, I wouldn't trade for Smith. Rosen was looked at as the best QB in the draft and I don't think anyone expected him to fall that far and if so it wasn't until we got closer to the draft. Also, I think realistically you don't trade up to 10 pre-draft to grab the last guy standing, you trade up into the top 5 so you can get a player you know or at least think you know will be a very good QB and will be there when you pick, trading to 10 puts you in a position where you may not get a QB if the draft didn't shake out the way it did, too much risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: I flat out said I don't think its because Reid doesn't love Alex. So not sure what you are arguing against. Yeah I've seen Reid talk about the cap. I've also heard him saying more than once Alex isn't getting younger. Andy Reid is classy as it gets. He's not going to throw any player under the bus. He's not going to kick in -- the he's not getting any younger with a negative segue along with it. Saying multiple times, he's not getting younger -- I don't think is some random coincidence. He was stating the obvious. Not sure why this is questioned. The Chiefs knew in October they were trading Alex Smith. Him saying that is coach speak for they were going younger next year. Everyone knew this was happening and was no secret. The reason was related to cap space. Alex knew it and took time to tutor Patrick. They all knew this was happening 12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: But regardless my main issue with the Alex Smith isn't anything to do with what the Chiefs think of him or for that matter about Alex Smith period. It's about trading for a 34 year old and having what I believe (if you don't believe it that's fine to each their own) is likely a 2-3 year window to win a championship or do something that we haven't done under Danny actually win 2 playoff games. Maybe I can see 1 playoff win as worthwhile. But if what we getting is a 8-8, 9-7 run and maybe sneak one appearance in the playoffs and lose. It's to me wasted time if we can build this team with a new-young QB. Do you know the percentage of first round QBs bust out of the league? 40% over the past twenty five years. Not saying a team shouldn’t take a QB in the first round but why do it with this team right now with Alex Smith as an option? Why are you convinced the ceiling for Alex is 8-8? I pointed out the 50 wins the past five season stat earlier. Why don’t you give some credit to Alex for that 12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: But if a run like that represents the new version of Redskins paradise then OK like I said if that's the perspective than fine. I am just not at that point where I've given up on their ability to win a SB again. I certainly have never said that 8-8 was the goal or the Redskins wouldn’t or couldn’t win a Super Bowl with Alex Smith. No one knows this seasons outcome yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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