Presidential Election: 11/3/20 ---Now the President Elect Joe Biden Thread

[twa]

Just now, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Just want to point out that twa has affirmed in writing in the past that he is NOT a Republican.

 

Turns out...that was not true.

 

 

I'm back to Independent again....didn't you read the newsletter?

 

Bernie caucused with the Dems to give them power didn't he?

[PleaseBlitz]

3 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I assumed you would.  The point is if Bernie really isn't a Democrat, then why is the DNC even playing this game?  I'd imagine because the amount of supporters he has.  They made him affirm in writing he is a Democrat.  And they accepted it.  Sounds like a Democrat to me.

 

You've got the reasoning right, but the conclusion wrong.  Bernie has enough supporters that if the DNC didn''t let him run for the nomination, it would alienate the Bernie wing, and the Dems can't do that.  That doesn't make Bernie a Democrat, nor does him signing a toothless loyalty pledge.

 

I literally showed you what Bernie's Senate bio says.  He presumably gets to write whatever he wants.  The FIRST SENTENCE he calls himself an independent.  When someone shows you what they are, you should believe them (hit tip to Maya Angelou). 

[visionary]

What a waste of money....

 

[tshile]

41 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

The chances of a Democrat nuking private insurance are as likely as Trump building a wall covering the entire US-Mexico border.

This is not what was discussed a month ago in one of the threads.

 

The consensus among almost everyone was that it would nuke private insurance. It wasn't even debatable. I felt embarrassed saying this was news to me. and it lead to me completely changing my position on the issue.

 

This is the problem with what is happening. What the **** am I voting for if I vote for Warren? A bunch of policies I don't agree with that depending on what day I visit the political threads the same (in terms of political ideology) people are telling completely opposite things about whether it'll be implemented and what it'll do or that it has no chance in being implemented at all.

 

This is not something I want to support.  It's all over the place. I'm 100% ok with a politician saying "I personally think X, but I realize the right move for the <people I represent> is to do Y, so I'm going to run on doing Y". I am not one who thinks a person can only govern based on their personal preferences, in fact I would argue a good leader puts their personal preferences to the side and does what's best for their people.

 

But that's not what we have. We have "This is what I'm going to do!" followed by weeks/months of "well it's not actually possible so don't judge her on it", "actually it is possible and likely and it means <whatever>", etc.

[TheGreatBuzz]

6 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I literally showed you what Bernie's Senate bio says.  He presumably gets to write whatever he wants.  The FIRST SENTENCE he calls himself an independent.  When someone shows you what they are, you should believe them (hit tip to Maya Angelou). 

Sweet!  Because my bio says I am sexy mother****er!!

 

Y'all spin it however you want.  He is running as a Dem.  He wrote to the DNC that he is a Dem.  The DNC accepted the statement that he is a Dem.  

 

But he's not a Dem.

[PleaseBlitz]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

Sweet!  Because my bio says I am sexy mother****er!!

 

Y'all spin it however you want.  He is running as a Dem.  He wrote to the DNC that he is a Dem.  The DNC accepted the statement that he is a Dem.  

 

But he's not a Dem.

 

Sigh.

[hail2skins]

How Trump can lose the popular vote in 2020 by a significantly wider margin than in 2016, and still win the electoral college again:

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/how-trump-could-lose-5-million-votes-still-win-2020-n1031601

[tshile]

42 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

We don't just let people die on the street and nobody is really for letting people die on the street.

 

I've come to believe that a lot of our problems as a society have become what they are because we've allowed the weak to continue and breed and make more weak. which is caused by this "we don't let people die in the streets!" sort of mentality. We've put a lot of resources into fighting darwin, and now we've got a lot of people that struggle to do the basics (solid living, reasonably informed about politics and participates, etc) and they have a sizable share of the vote.

 

i don't know how smart or sustaining this sort of mentality is.

 

we're looking more and more like idiocracy every week.

 

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, twa said:

 

But the safe Blue districts seem to be swinging harder left, even mine.

What position did AOC get appointed to despite you claiming her as a outlier/fringe?

Boo Boo.  No different than the safer red districts swinging hard right and fully embracing Trumpism.

[TradeTheBeal!]

36 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

How about in parking lots?

 

https://www.armytimes.com/news/transition/2019/02/08/veterans-are-committing-suicide-in-va-parking-lots-report/

 

Another reason I laugh when people want government run healthcare.  

 

21 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

 

 

 

We'll see what happens when they add 283 million more customers.

 

 

Literally, in the same breath...

 

But to show how little you actually know about me, I'm fine with expanding Medicare

 

At this point, “willfully obtuse” would be a grand understatement.

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Sigh.

I get it, but... he has a point...

 

All that and if he wins the nomination he's going to be on the ballot under the category "Democrat"

 

He's only an independent in the sense that he doesn't feel the Dems are far left enough, often enough. 

 

You (the DNC and whoever else falls into the category of defending/supporting the dem party) wanted the votes he brings. So you did a show to make him a democrats. Well, the baggage that comes with doing that is you now have a nontrivial size of the population who sees him (and Warren, mind you) out front leading the charge to run for present representing you...  and says "that's what democrats are"

 

I actually understand exactly what you're saying. And we went through this with Trump and the republicans. And I argued over and over that if you use your brain you can see Trump isn't a republican. And damn never everyone of you argued against me, using what i used above.

 

So... Bernie's a democrat.

 

Eat it PleaseBlitz

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

 

 

Literally, in the same breath...

 

But to show how little you actually know about me, I'm fine with expanding Medicare

 

At this point, “willfully obtuse” would be a grand understatement.

Meh......again, you're entitled to your opinion, etc.

 

Three points you highlighted:  I pointed at two different systems of completly government run health care systems and how bad some of their issues are.  I responded to a post about Medicare stating I wondered how it would work when the other 85% of the population is added on to it.  And I stated I'm fine with expanding Medicare.

 

So to wrap these all together, I've received government run healthcare for the last 17 years (military).  I will likely receive it for the rest of my life (VA).  And I'm fine with the rest of the population receiving the same ****ty care that I receive.  Hence, the comparison I made to gay marriage.

 

And this makes me obtuse?  Interesting.

[PleaseBlitz]

Bernie Sanders:  I am an independent.

Buzz and tshile:  Yea, but he does a lot of things that Democrats do, and he did sign that letter that they made him sign to that he could do the thing he wants to do.

Bernie Sanders:  "I am an Independent ... I don't consider myself a Democrat"

Buzz and tshile:  Definitely a Democrat.  

[Jumbo]

i'd like to point out  that buzzz keeps his cool better than just about anyone here, gets attacked too often inappropriately but not in mean or real a-hole way or there'd be penalties, but i'm looking for abuse and buzz is tough and well-tempered  (i await potential correction from buzzette)

 

also buzz should be one of the people here---there are others--who have long identified as gop or repub or conservative and remind that there are huge numbers of such folks who aren't any kind of idiot/ahole/bigot/enemy, other than the average human helping, and simply have some share of differing but worthy thinking on virtually any matter of things than dems/libs/left whatevers do

 

 

because there are , of course, tens of millions of decent worthy people who will still identify as republicans,, i'd prefer to see them work their party out of this and their ugly contingent rather than see their party's "destruction" as my take is we do much better with a dynamic struggle between classic (say last 100 years more or less) conservatives-middle of the roadsters--liberals versus one party or the other getting to completely indulge itself

[visionary]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

This is not what was discussed a month ago in one of the threads.

 

The consensus among almost everyone was that it would nuke private insurance. It wasn't even debatable. I felt embarrassed saying this was news to me. and it lead to me completely changing my position on the issue.

 

This is the problem with what is happening. What the **** am I voting for if I vote for Warren? A bunch of policies I don't agree with that depending on what day I visit the political threads the same (in terms of political ideology) people are telling completely opposite things about whether it'll be implemented and what it'll do or that it has no chance in being implemented at all.

 

This is not something I want to support.  It's all over the place. I'm 100% ok with a politician saying "I personally think X, but I realize the right move for the <people I represent> is to do Y, so I'm going to run on doing Y". I am not one who thinks a person can only govern based on their personal preferences, in fact I would argue a good leader puts their personal preferences to the side and does what's best for their people.

 

But that's not what we have. We have "This is what I'm going to do!" followed by weeks/months of "well it's not actually possible so don't judge her on it", "actually it is possible and likely and it means <whatever>", etc.

No one is saying don't judge the candidates on their proposals.  But you should have some idea of how politics works, how most ideas don't make it into laws and when they do they almost never end the way they're originally proposed.  If people are going to support Trump or not vote for the Democratic nominee because of things that might perhaps in some form happen (assuming the various faction of the Democratic party could agree on them) and as opposed to the things that Trump is doing now as we argue and what he will definitely do in the future, we're all screwed.   But if you really want the candidates to change their plans, you can always try engaging with them somehow.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

5 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Bernie Sanders:  I am an independent.

Buzz and tshile:  Yea, but he does a lot of things that Democrats do, and he did sign that letter that they made him sign to that he could do the thing he wants to do.

Bernie Sanders:  "I am an Independent ... I don't consider myself a Democrat"

Buzz and tshile:  Definitely a Democrat.  

 

PleaseBlitz:  Bernie is an Independent.  See here is one of his bio's (a senate bio) where he says so!

Buzz and tshile:  *checks notes*  He is running as a Dem, has signed up as a Dem, and the DNC has accepted him as a Dem.  

PleaseBlitz:  But....but.....but.....he's not a Dem.  We just want his big Democratic voting block.

Buzz and tshile:  *blinks slowly and loudly*

 

This is fun.  We should do it more often.

5 minutes ago, visionary said:

No one is saying don't judge the candidates on their proposals.  But you should have some idea of how politics works, how most ideas don't make it into laws and when they do they almost never end the way they're originally proposed.  If people are going to support Trump or not vote for the Democratic nominee because of things that might perhaps in some form happen (assuming the various faction of the Democratic party could agree on them) and as opposed to the things that Trump is doing now as we argue and what he will definitely do in the future, we're all screwed.   But if you really want the candidates to change their plans, you can always try engaging with them somehow.  

 

Can you imagine if everyone took this same view to something silly like "building a wall"?

[PleaseBlitz]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

PleaseBlitz:  Bernie is an Independent.  See here is one of his bio's (a senate bio) where he says so!

Buzz and tshile:  *checks notes*  He is running as a Dem, has signed up as a Dem, and the DNC has accepted him as a Dem.  

PleaseBlitz:  But....but.....but.....he's not a Dem.  We just want his big Democratic voting block.

Buzz and tshile:  *blinks slowly and loudly*

 

This is fun.  We should do it more often.

 

I'm truly sorry you have such trouble understanding simple concepts.   

[tshile]

12 minutes ago, visionary said:

But if you really want the candidates to change their plans, you can always try engaging with them somehow.  

 

Yeah.

 

Based on how engaging with their supporters goes on these ideas, I'm not thinking that will go so well.

 

I'd give it a try but the dem candidates don't visit here. 

 

It's interesting because usually candidates get crushed for not "delivering on their promises" At least in my lifetime that has routinely been a criticism. Obama was criticized for the way some of his promises came about (or, didn't)

 

Now we're in here saying promises don't mean **** and don't worry about the policies they've crafted their platform on, they wont happen anyways.

 

In any other walk of life if the take-way from a person was "don't believe what they say, just know it's going to happen this other way" almost everyone with a clue would reject that and walk away.

[Mooka]

Are ya'll having this conversation and not mentioning $$$?

 

The Democratic Party doesn't give a **** what Bernie calls himself, nor do they care about his block of voters; they simply want his money and fundraising potential. 

 

Vice versa, Bernie wants the Dem nomination because then all the leftover campaign funds go to his campaign.

 

[tshile]

16 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Can you imagine if everyone took this same view to something silly like "building a wall"?

 

This is ultimately the problem.

 

You either judge people by what they say and what they do, or you don't.

 

And if you don't, you can craft whatever arguments you want at any time because nothing is rooted in actions and words anymore; it's all conjecture by a third party.

 

When trump supporters started talking about a figurative wall, you all mocked the hell out of them. When trump supporters said Mexico could indeed be forced to pay for the wall through other wise than literally writing a check with "Wall Money" in the memo, you all mocked them. 

 

Now you're here telling us not believe what people say they want to do, and instead believe this other thing that's based on conjecture (They won't be able to do x, y, and z)

 

You're all trying to have it both ways. 

 

I prefer to judge people on what they say and do. I will judge the dem nominee based on what their platform is. 

 

(PS - Mexico is actually deporting people and policing the border now. This news is going to play well for Trump)

 

[twa]

36 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Boo Boo.  No different than the safer red districts swinging hard right and fully embracing Trumpism.

 

But you don't see me claiming they are gonna be pushing centrist policy do you.  

 

Now McCain and Romney probably would have, but they were rejected

[visionary]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

This is ultimately the problem.

 

You either judge people by what they say and what they do, or you don't.

 

And if you don't, you can craft whatever arguments you want at any time because nothing is rooted in actions and words anymore; it's all conjecture by a third party.

 

When trump supporters started talking about a figurative wall, you all mocked the hell out of them. When trump supporters said Mexico could indeed be forced to pay for the wall through other wise than literally writing a check with "Wall Money" in the memo, you all mocked them. 

 

Now you're here telling us not believe what people say they want to do, and instead believe this other thing that's based on conjecture (They won't be able to do x, y, and z)

 

You're all trying to have it both ways. 

 

I prefer to judge people on what they say and do. I will judge the dem nominee based on what their platform is. 

 

(PS - Mexico is actually deporting people and policing the border now. This news is going to play well for Trump)

 

The wall is a gross and wasteful joke and always has been.  People should have spent more time worrying about what the administration was doing under the radar. 

 

This argument is getting exhausting.  It seems like you two just want to complain.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

Just now, visionary said:

The wall is a gross and wasteful joke and always has been.  People should have spent more time worrying about what the administration was doing under the radar. 

 

I thought we were talking in reference to campaigning.

 

Sorry you don't like the discussion.  But I don't see it as us two complaining.  If anything, it sounds like a couple people in here are just complaining that we don't like the insane ideas they have come up with.  Don't judge a candidate by their proposals, they won't happen anyways?  Seriously?  

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I assumed you would.  The point is if Bernie really isn't a Democrat, then why is the DNC even playing this game?  I'd imagine because the amount of supporters he has.  They made him affirm in writing he is a Democrat.  And they accepted it.  Sounds like a Democrat to me.

 

 

We'll see what happens when they add 283 million more customers.

 

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

You've got the reasoning right, but the conclusion wrong.  Bernie has enough supporters that if the DNC didn''t let him run for the nomination, it would alienate the Bernie wing, and the Dems can't do that.  That doesn't make Bernie a Democrat, nor does him signing a toothless loyalty pledge.

 

I literally showed you what Bernie's Senate bio says.  He presumably gets to write whatever he wants.  The FIRST SENTENCE he calls himself an independent.  When someone shows you what they are, you should believe them (hit tip to Maya Angelou). 

 

I'd suspect to avoid another Ross Perot.

 

Having someone siphoning off votes as an independent isn't good for either party. 

[bearrock]

I think @TheGreatBuzz and @tshile are in line with lot of swing voters.  I'm a bleeding heart liberal who believes that government run health care can be done (as it is in many countries), but I also know it can be FUBAR'd as Greatbuzz points out.  I would much prefer to see a proposal that presents it as an option available to all without nuking the existing system by fiat.  If the new system proves more popular and superior and the old system gets naturally phased out, then great.  But if the new system is an unmitigated disaster and we legislatively scrapped the old system, what then?  Why is that method superior to a two track system of both private and public option with perhaps unifying reimbursement rates as much as possible?  (Maybe provide tax subsidy to rural areas that would otherwise be underserved?).  I just don't see the benefit of a total radical overhaul of the existing structure over a more gradual approach.

 

And yeah, politicians should say what they mean and mean what they say.  Voters shouldn't have to read the tea leaves to figure out which policy proposals will actually happen and which are just pandering.