The Defensive Line Thread - Who makes the cut?

[OVCChairman]

HUH... almost like Allen's purpose on that play is to get attention... less stunt, more delayed blitz type

[skinny21]

Sort of playing off that last post - if our linemen can keep our backers clean(er), that could be a big boost toward reducing that 5ypc average on 1st downs.  

[RandyHolt]

18 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

Funny in that I was also trying to figure out our D-Line rushing strategy.  Since there are 4 gaps and only 3 rushing linemen, I figured 2 got doubled teamed and one was shooting the gap but it's not that simple.  It seems like two (sometimes) are shooting the gap with ab inside linebacker or sometimes safety to occupy the weak side.  Then, the double-teamed lineman seems to lag behind.

 

I criticized McGee in his first pre-season game for this, but I'm thinking now it's a strategy.  This tweet links a GIF that shows J. Allen going for the gap (and indirectly occupying two O-linemen) while Ionnidis 'lags' behind then shoots for the ball carrier. Paul Conner calls it a stunt but it doesn't look like a stunt to me.

 

Great post! 

 

It is really hard to figure out what we do, as every play is different, it happens so fast, and we don't know what even may be a blown assignment, or a guy free lancing. I agree, its not a stunt, but maybe what I'd call a pick. Allen clogs up that inside, headed to the guy desperately trying to get to Matt. It just so happens the ball went to the side that gives the appearance of a stunt, since Matt went behind the wash for the tackle.

It may be a little of what i see Dallas do where they blindside an engaged blocker, when a defenders job is solely to help free up a teammate.

 

Dare I say the D may be the strength of our team early. I am so glad to see DL doing something besides "rushing in their lanes".

[JaxJoe]

I'm surprised the D-Line debate has ended since the final cuts.

 

In light of Phil Taylor being put on IR, I found it surprising that the team didn't keep Mbu or Francis.  This has me worried.

 

Look at the latest depth chart:

 

http://www.redskins.com/team/depth-chart.html

 

It shows Ziggy Hood as the starting NT - like last year!  And, that didn't work out well at all.  It shows Jonathon Allen as first string DE.  I don't think he started one pre-season game. Very strange.

 

I also recall seeing the 3-4 base in all of our pre-season games when the starters were playing.  I don't recall one snap where we were not in the 3-4, It wasn't until Allen and Ionnidis were in, did we play in the nickel - and neither opened the game as a starter.

 

It's very confusing.

 

I think that the performance of Phil Taylor was a complete and pleasant surprise to Manusky and was seeing good production from the 3-4.  But, when switching out Nose Tackles, he saw a tremendous drop in productivity.  So, when Taylor went down, Manusky decided to abandon the classic 3-4 base (no true NT) and go with the lighter more agile DL.

 

I'm worried.

[OVCChairman]

Maybe we were running strictly 3-4 to see if Taylor had the goods to run that scheme, but we were still going to be using a LOT of rotational Nickel / 43 packages... hence the reason when those guys who would be 'rotating' were in the game, we didn't run a 3-4.  Sunday will be a very telling sign.  I don't see us leaning on Ziggy to be an NT as a majority package, we just cant do it.  It would make more sense if this was a form of gamesmanship regarding the depth chart, and that the rotation we've been hearing about, will actually keep us OUT of the 34 packages. 

[RandyHolt]

Thanks for the bump @JaxJoe as dumping all NTs is a big story, or course totally squashed by streaming live Sua's drama filled twitter feed.

 

What is Manusky doing. First, I think it's safe to say we will be in less 3-4 than last year. Sure, our opponent, D&D, heck even a QB prone to hurry-up, dictate what we do. The Giants used 11 ~70% of snaps last year.  So it's really who we trot out on the first play of the game vs 11 personnel, that is used more than >50% of the time now - that should be the foundation of our depth chart. 

 

1/10/20 - are we always in nickel vs 11? If so, Fuller is a starter on our defense.

 

I really wonder how less effective would we be vs the run in a 4-3, than in our annual bad nose job 3-4, with our OLBs putting on their old hats and being DEs again. It certainly wouldn't hurt us vs the pass. I theorize it could bait offenses to run at our ends, but Manusky should be able to game plan for that with Brown or Foster working inside.

 

If we wanted to fool the Eagles into thinking they will see a lot of 3-4, we should have named McGee as our ace NT.  They see Hood and you can rest assured we will see them run up the gut to start the game out of 11.

 

 

[OVCChairman]

40 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Thanks for the bump @JaxJoe as dumping all NTs is a big story, or course totally squashed by streaming live Sua's drama filled twitter feed.

 

What is Manusky doing. First, I think it's safe to say we will be in less 3-4 than last year. Sure, our opponent, D&D, heck even a QB prone to hurry-up, dictate what we do. The Giants used 11 ~70% of snaps last year.  So it's really who we trot out on the first play of the game vs 11 personnel, that is used more than >50% of the time now - that should be the foundation of our depth chart. 

 

1/10/20 - are we always in nickel vs 11? If so, Fuller is a starter on our defense, but then Brown or Foster is not.

 

I really wonder how less effective would we be vs the run in a 4-3, than in our annual bad nose job 3-4, with our OLBs putting on their old hats and being DEs again. It certainly wouldn't hurt us vs the pass. I theorize it could bait offenses to run at our ends, but Manusky should be able to game plan for that with Brown or Foster working inside.

 

If we wanted to fool the Giants into thinking they will see a lot of 3-4, we should have named McGee as our ace NT.  They see Hood and you can rest assured we will see them run up the gut to start the game out of 11.

 

 

Lookin ahead a bit arent we?  I'm worried about what Philly is gonna do to our defense first   

[JaxJoe]

Even more telling about the abandonment of the NT position is that we don't even have a backup on the practice squad, much less the roster.  They have McGee as the back-up but that is a little hard considering he is the starting DE. I guess if Hood goes down, it's McClain, McGee, Allen for our base. That's still a lot of beef.

 

I think your right, @RandyHolt, we have eliminated the traditional NT from our defense.  Unless Jonathon Allen is truly a world beater, my take is that we will likely be about the same Run-D as last year. Frankly, I think or pass rush will be similar too, although I do think our overall pass-D will be improved.

[RandyHolt]

33 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Lookin ahead a bit arent we?  I'm worried about what Philly is gonna do to our defense first   

 

Hangs head in shame. What kind of fan am I. I saw the Giants crushed 11 last year, and was hypnotized by this Irma link.

 

@JaxJoe Manusky waved the white flag and after losing Taylor said to hell with the NT charade. Good for him - its about time someone recognize its not working. I think he is going to rely on a crafty exotic scheme and overall team speed on D to stop the run. We have to be faster carrying all extra DBs instead of 1K poundage in NTs. 

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Hangs head in shame. What kind of fan am I. Editing now.

Dude I honestly thought I was losing my mind lol.  I'm sorry. 

[RandyHolt]

Philly was in 11 personnel 80% last year, but they are a different team this year vs last.

 

Are we always 425 vs 11, or would a guy like Everette a former corner be used against bigger slower #3's?

 

RHs Best 11 in our real life base.

 

Smith Allen Ionannides Kerrigan

      Foster          Brown

Norman Everette Fuller Breeland

                   DJ

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I found it interesting that when the team released it's depth chart it was a 3-4 with Hood in the middle.  So even though we will be in a lot of other fronts the base defense remains the 3-4 and the starting nose tackle is still Ziggy Hood.  How does that happen?  And don't say Phil Taylor, he came into camp as a long shot. 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

54 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Philly was in 11 personnel 80% last year, but they are a different team this year vs last.

 

Are we always 425 vs 11, or would a guy like Everette a former corner be used against bigger slower #3's?

 

RHs Best 11 in our real life base.

 

Smith Allen Ionannides Kerrigan

      Foster          Brown

Norman Everette Fuller Breeland

                   DJ

 

 

I know what we want and what we do are 2 different things, but if you want to go full on best 11 i'd go 4-3.... IF we go 425 i agree with yours, with Anderson hopefully growing more to be in place of Smith.   

 

 

Smith can be an X-factor if we use him right.  Move him around quite a bit, having him line up at multiple defensive positions without any rhyme or reason.  Controlled chaos can be overwhelming, especially to younger QBs.

 

[RandyHolt]

16 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

I know what we want and what we do are 2 different things, but if you want to go full on best 11 i'd go 4-3.... IF we go 425 i agree with yours, with Anderson hopefully growing more to be in place of Smith.   

 

 

Smith can be an X-factor if we use him right.  Move him around quite a bit, having him line up at multiple defensive positions without any rhyme or reason.  Controlled chaos can be overwhelming, especially to younger QBs.

 

I honestly cannot remember what we did last year... Kickoff at Fedex, stadium half empty still.... Philly comes out in 11 with Jeffrey Smith and Agholor, are we in nickel?   Whatever that formation is, I propose is our 2017 base. Dallas only ran 11 50% of the time, but within our division we should see 11 ~65% of the time.

 

It looks like a big year for Preston. He lost out the starting job to Trent Murphy in 16 even though he was supposed to be a DL. PEDs so whateves. Has Preston started games, or has he always come off the bench? Smith is listed 6-5 265. Kerrigan 6-4 259. Figuring out our best outside backers hand in dirt seems critical to any 4-3 aspirations.  I imagine OC's will run right at Smith and Kerrigan until we stop it. I would. If we panic and go to the 3-4? Run up the gut at Hood.

 

I am surprised Galette is not starting, but assume he is injured.

[OVCChairman]

26 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I honestly cannot remember what we did last year... Kickoff at Fedex, stadium half empty still.... Philly comes out in 11 with Jeffrey Smith and Agholor, are we in nickel?   Whatever that formation is, I propose is our 2017 base. Dallas only ran 11 50% of the time, but within our division we should see 11 ~65% of the time.

 

It looks like a big year for Preston. He lost out the starting job to Trent Murphy in 16 even though he was supposed to be a DL. PEDs so whateves. Has Preston started games, or has he always come off the bench? Smith is listed 6-5 265. Kerrigan 6-4 259. Figuring out our best outside backers hand in dirt seems critical to any 4-3 aspirations.  I imagine OC's will run right at Smith and Kerrigan until we stop it. I would. If we panic and go to the 3-4? Run up the gut at Hood.

 

I am surprised Galette is not starting, but assume he is injured.

I saw a report that Galette was full go at practice... cant imagine being 2 years removed, he walks into a starting role having had ST and minimal late game chances in the preseason.  

 

As far as where to run... I'm with you.  I'm ramming it right down our throat until you prove to me it wont work.... Thats why I figure will not be in a 34 for long... and if we are, we will see quite a bit of Will Compton on running downs.... which will mean Play Action and misdirection plays are going to kill us between Compton and Kerrigan.  

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

Been stewing... best 11:

 

 

               Smith / Ioan / Hood / Allen / Kerrigan

                   Brown                         Foster

 

Norman            Everette                    DJ                Breeland

 

 

This is my base formation.  Get conditioned boys, were gonna be runnin.  The majority of the time Kerrigan would be standing up... shift him around from left to right as a 'floating OLB.  If  need be, pull him (or Smith) out and put Fuller in as a nickle DB for obvious situations...  Where this gets hairy though is if they can get a TE isolated on the edge of the line... That's where Everette or Brown needs to be able to break off into man coverage, sending DJ deep as a single high safety.  3rd and Long, I would be open to pulling Foster and replacing him with Fuller for additional secondary help.  Bottom line is teams know they can beat the flats, and they can run on us...  Out of this formation you can flex multiple people into multiple roles without doing wholesale shifts and substitutions.  We need defensive alignments that can cover multiple scenarios.  

 

@RandyHolt you mentioned 425.. i'm looking more 524..    

 

 

[CTskin]

9 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Been stewing... best 11:

 

 

               Smith / Ioan / Hood / Allen / Kerrigan

                   Brown                         Foster

 

Norman            Everette                    DJ                Breeland

 

 

This is my base formation.  Get conditioned boys, were gonna be runnin.  

 

I'm still confused why McGee, the only space-eater on the roster isn't playing NT. This isn't a critique of your formation, but more on the Skins for never playing him there. Going into the season with Hood slated as the NT gives me the same nauseous feeling as last year when we went in with Golston. 

 

This is the same situation as Compton and Grant... It's blatantly obvious that these guys are below average, to put it kindly, yet the coaches are blinded by the love for their pets. This is just not how good teams function. These are two, if not three roster spots that should belong to other players.

[RandyHolt]

A dynamic floating (Kerrigan) 5 man front. I am not sold on Hood inside... I thinking McGee.  We need to firm it up inside and your front does that, but  have a feeling in the end the onus will fall upon Allen and Ioannides (more all down guys), who I think we prove to be our best DL.

 

But I like the thinking. I too think we are going to be running.  I do have concerns about Kerrigan/Smith/Jr dropping back but whatever.  After 7+ years now, I am finally starting to accept the fact that any QB can complete passes when our OLBs are in coverage, and not sweat it. For them getting that 1 INT a year, makes it all worth it.

 

 

[OVCChairman]

I'm not sold on Hood either.  I'm not sold on ANYONE on our roster playing position of NT.  That's the point of this formation.  Can't focus a double team on the interior most lineman when there are ends in each gap on either side like in this formation.  It (hopefully) masks the ability to crash the C / G combo down and out, sealing the crease... too much traffic.   Off Tackle could get interesting, since the LBs could get caught up in the wash and that leaves the RB a free pass to the 2nd level, but that's where Smith / Kerrigan come into play needing to provide containment and discipline along the outside and not run themselves upfield and out of the play. 

 

 

Please feel free to critique my post.. .thats what a forum is for.  Discussion.  I don't take it personal unless it gets personal .  I put Hood there because I have to someone believe the defensive staff see's something, and that's why he's 'starting' at NT on the depth chart.... then again half the front 7 doesnt make sense, so who the heck knows lol.  

[skinny21]

I think we're going to have some serious growing pains on D... but I do really like the versatility.  

 

Anderson setting the edge, Galette speed rushing, Brown sideline to sideline, Smith rushing inside, Kerrigan rushing with better players around him and coverage behind him, etc.

 

Not sure the PT they'll get, but I'm looking forward to seeing what JHC, Nicholson and Moreau bring.  

 

I'm far from sold on Everett (especially worried about how his size matches up), but his corner experience could/should be a big help in coverage.  

 

Edit:  Breaking it down, I see Brown, Anderson, McGee and Allen as nice upgrades vs the run.  Swearinger, Brown and (an improved/healthier) Fuller as upgrades in coverage.  Allen, Galette, a much improved Ioannidas and Brown/Foster on A/B gap blitzes should be upgrades.  

 

I think the key will be how comfortably these guys can play within Manusky's scheme, and how well they are used.  

 

 

(That's not to imply Anderson can't help as a rusher, Ioannidas as a run stopper, etc.  Just comparing their strengths vs last year's squad).  

 

[CTskin]

9 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I think we're going to have some serious growing pains on D... but I do really like the versatility.  

 

Anderson setting the edge, Galette speed rushing, Brown sideline to sideline, Smith rushing inside, Kerrigan rushing with better players around him and coverage behind him, etc.

 

Not sure the PT they'll get, but I'm looking forward to seeing what JHC, Nicholson and Moreau bring.  

 

I'm far from sold on Everett (especially worried about how his size matches up), but his corner experience could/should be a big help in coverage.  

 

 

 

I was down on the Nicholson draft pick, I thought he was purely a SPARQ guy, not a football player, but he's shown real flashes. On top that, the coaches have only spoke well about him and he's apparently bffs with Moreau now after rooming with him for the Summer. Would be great if Hosley/Nicholson/Moreau/JHC come up together here and form a young secondary core to build off of. I'm way ahead of myself, but whatever, the off-season is for dreaming.

 

A guy I've been up on, since well before the Su'a drama, is Deshazor. He looked like a legitimate NFL safety last year and improved with each game he played. He and DJ have played both safety positions, so the versatility is a big bonus. Su'a's a square peg/round hole player where the only place he fits is as a 3rd safety on passing down. I think JHC can fill that role just as well; he has the same speed with a Cam Chancellor build.

 

Just realized this is the DL thread and I haven't mentioned anything regarding DL... so here's to hoping Phil Taylor comes back next year.

[Riggo'sRangers]

4 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I am surprised Galette is not starting, but assume he is injured.

They will probably ease him in as he's played no real football for ages.  He may be a situational player for us and that is honestly fine with me.  Let him get his legs back (and stay healthy) and perhaps be a bigger part in the 2nd half of the season.  

[RandyHolt]

I am wondering if 1/10/20 to start games vs 11 personnel, if we ever went 3-3-5.  I seem to always remember seeing our NT of the week to start games, and figure we must have seen a lot of 3 wide to start games. Its like we went out of way to use our Nose but couldn't wait to jog him off, for seemingly the most of the rest of the game (short yardage aside).

 

Anyone have a game DVR'd from last year hook us up! To start the game only, what was our base vs 11 - assuming we saw 11 of course.

[Stadium-Armory]

I hate that we've lost three starters on defense before the season has even started, two of which are on the line.  It's going to be tough to overcome.

[Koolblue13]

Ziggy Hood at NT makes me want to give up on the season already.