Moose & Squirrel v Boris & Natasha: what's the deal with the rooskies and trumpland?

[Burgold]

Getting tired of people saying "there's no evidence." We've got multiple resignations, President's lawyering up, and guys like Clapper saying they have seen evidence. More, we have Flynn pleading the Fifth not to a line of questioning, but turning over documents. The documents will incriminate him, huh? Seems to me that all of that is more than a little suggestive.

[Llevron]

20 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Getting tired of people saying "there's no evidence." We've got multiple resignations, President's lawyering up, and guys like Clapper saying they have seen evidence. More, we have Flynn pleading the Fifth not to a line of questioning, but turning over documents. The documents will incriminate him, huh? Seems to me that all of that is more than a little suggestive.

 

AND cats saying they will talk if they get immunity. That sealed it for me. If you are willing to talk as long as you cant get in trouble but using your constitutional right to silence when you still can get the **** end of the stick that tells me you KNOW that there is something baaaad on the way. 

 

And its coming from one of the only two people on the planet Donald Trump has proven he will stick by until the end. Says alot. 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

 

[Llevron]

Why haven't we blown them up yet? 

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[techboy]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

AND cats saying they will talk if they get immunity. That sealed it for me. If you are willing to talk as long as you cant get in trouble but using your constitutional right to silence when you still can get the **** end of the stick that tells me you KNOW that there is something baaaad on the way. 

 

I think it's likely Flynn is guilty, but I don't think you can draw that conclusion based on his invocation of the 5th. For one thing, any lawyer isn't going to want his or her client to provide information to investigators willingly, whether or not that client is guilty of the particular crime. It's too easy for things to be misunderstood, blown out of proportion, or re-analyzed to fit a different crime.

 

The only reason to cooperate is political, and that only applies if Flynn is worried about how he looks.

 

I also think it's dangerous to our democracy for people to speculate in this way. The 5th ammendment is a core right as a citizen of the U.S., and it's wrong to perpetuate reasoning that chills the ability of anyone to claim that right if needed.

[Llevron]

4 minutes ago, techboy said:

 

I think it's likely Flynn is guilty, but I don't think you can draw that conclusion based on his invocation of the 5th. For one thing, any lawyer isn't going to want his or her client to provide information to investigators willingly, whether or not that client is guilty of the particular crime. It's too easy for things to be misunderstood, blown out of proportion, or re-analyzed to fit a different crime.

 

The only reason to cooperate is political, and that only applies if Flynn is worried about how he looks.

 

I also think it's dangerous to our democracy for people to speculate in this way. The 5th ammendment is a core right as a citizen of the U.S., and it's wrong to perpetuate reasoning that chills the ability of anyone to claim that right if needed.

 

I see where you are coming from totally but the fact that he was willing to talk with immunity says alot. 

 

And I'm not just making that judgment because of him pleading the 5th. I'm getting there by reading the rediculious amount of tea leaves he has left behind. We already know he's not against selling out his country for money and that is not conjecture it is fact. 

[techboy]

Just now, Llevron said:

 

I see where you are coming from totally but the fact that he was willing to talk with immunity says alot. 

 

No it doesn't. It means that he's willing to talk with immunity because then the concerns I mentioned above are no longer valid. In fact, as I understand it, if prosecutors grant immunity you can't claim the 5th any more because you can't incriminate yourself.

 

And not to belabor the point, but it is exactly this reasoning that makes it hard for people to claim the 5th. "Oh... You don't want to talk if there's a risk you'll be prosecuted? You must be guilty!" Because there has never in the history of the world been a prosecutor that twisted information to improper ends, right?

3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

And I'm not just making that judgment because of him pleading the 5th. I'm getting there by reading the rediculious amount of tea leaves he has left behind. We already know he's not against selling out his country for money and that is not conjecture it is fact. 

 

That's why I said he's probably guilty (though I'm also an advocate of innocent until...)

 

I just think it's inappropriate and even dangerous to include the "it looks bad he's taking the 5th" bit. It's certainly not just you, of course, and it's a real problem.

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

[mistertim]

30 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

"Says who?"

[techboy]

This has been posted here before, but it's applicable:

 

 

And that's for talking to investigators who are (theoretically at least) unbiased. I'd say that's times one thousand for giving information to a group who are intrinsically political.

 

 

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[twa]

56 minutes ago, Llevron said:

We already know he's not against selling out his country for money and that is not conjecture it is fact. 

 

Can you link to where he has sold out his country?

 

Ya know,being fact and all.

[Llevron]

18 minutes ago, techboy said:

 

No it doesn't. It means that he's willing to talk with immunity because then the concerns I mentioned above are no longer valid. In fact, as I understand it, if prosecutors grant immunity you can't claim the 5th any more because you can't incriminate yourself.

 

And not to belabor the point, but it is exactly this reasoning that makes it hard for people to claim the 5th. "Oh... You don't want to talk if there's a risk you'll be prosecuted? You must be guilty!" Because there has never in the history of the world been a prosecutor that twisted information to improper ends, right?

 

That's why I said he's probably guilty (though I'm also an advocate of innocent until...)

 

I just think it's inappropriate and even dangerous to include the "it looks bad he's taking the 5th" bit. It's certainly not just you, of course, and it's a real problem.

 

I think you are missing me (and usually that is my fault). I dont think pleading the 5th make you inherently guilty (though, the President himself said it does http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-campaign-staff-fifth-amendment-flynn/ ) 

 

I am taking the whole of Flynn's history and current legal troubles into account when I say that:

 

a) He is willing to talk with immunity and

b ) he is NOT willing to talk without immunity

c) He is hiding some ****. 

 

He doesn't have to plead the 5th for me to feel this way. 

 

Still I acknowledge your overall point that the using your constitutional right to silence is not admitting guilt and I never intended to say that it was. 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JCB]

Apologies if I missed this somewhere in the thread, but Malcolm Nance (yes he's an MSNBC expert, but he's an intelligence expert and former U.S. Navy senior chief petty officer in naval cryptology) said this a few days ago on Chris Hayes' show:

"I’d like to put this into a better perspective for the audience, because I understand that, you know, everyone wants to be a little cautious about this. And we should be cautious about it — it needs to have the amount of respect that’s due, due to this breaking news.
"But had any individual, other than these individuals who worked immediately for President Trump, performed these actions at any time in the SF-86 security clearance process, they would have immediately had their clearances pulled. They would have had their jobs terminated. Some of these contacts are so suspicious that they would have warranted their own counterintelligence investigation. This nation is in a counterintelligence investigation. They are in a spy hunt over at the FBI, and now we have this story, should it prove true, of an American citizen who is the senior adviser to the president of the United States, attempting to establish what we call in the intelligence community “covert communications” with a hostile nation’s potential intelligence agency or senior leadership. 
"That brings you — that crosses the line to the Espionage Act of 1917. This cannot be explained. Put aside the other 18 contacts with Moscow — this one incident requires Jared Kushner and all of his immediate staff to have their clearances pulled right now, and to have the FBI descend on there and to determine whether this is hostile intelligence in the White House, one step from the president."

[techboy]

16 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

 (though, the President himself said it does

 

The President is either a moron or cynically corrupt.

 

Probably both.

 

Maybe corruptly cynical.

 

Moronically corruptly cynical?

 

Cynically moronically corrupt?

 

Okay... I'll stop now.

[Llevron]

2 minutes ago, techboy said:

 

The President is either a moron or cynically corrupt.

 

Probably both.

 

Maybe corruptly cynical.

 

Moronically corruptly cynical?

 

Cynically moronically corrupt?

 

Okay... I'll stop now.

 

He is totally all of those things lol

[Llevron]

47 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Can you link to where he has sold out his country?

 

Ya know,being fact and all.

 

Talking about his Turkey lobbying. That is no longer conjecture correct? I can probably find you a link you like if you tell me what source you respect/accept not named Fox or Sputnik. I know thats hard for you people lol

 

But seriously you know what im talking about dont be a TWA about this. 

 

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

13 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Talking about his Turkey lobbying. That is no longer conjecture correct? I can probably find you a link you like if you tell me what source you respect/accept not named Fox or Sputnik. I know thats hard for you people lol

 

But seriously you know what im talking about dont be a TWA about this. 

Oh no, they want receipts, because how else can you prove a sale without receipts?

Don't worry @Llevron it simply doesn't matter what is ever proven. 33% will never turn on the Beloved Leader, and another significant portion are more than willing to leverage those 33% of useful idiots and the Beloved Leader in the hopes that they can force their agenda through before mid-terms.

[Dan T.]

2 hours ago, techboy said:

 

I think it's likely Flynn is guilty, but I don't think you can draw that conclusion based on his invocation of the 5th. For one thing, any lawyer isn't going to want his or her client to provide information to investigators willingly, whether or not that client is guilty of the particular crime. It's too easy for things to be misunderstood, blown out of proportion, or re-analyzed to fit a different crime.

 

The only reason to cooperate is political, and that only applies if Flynn is worried about how he looks.

 

I also think it's dangerous to our democracy for people to speculate in this way. The 5th ammendment is a core right as a citizen of the U.S., and it's wrong to perpetuate reasoning that chills the ability of anyone to claim that right if needed.

 

I tend to agree with you. 

 

One person who doesn't is Michael Flynn's former boss:

 

“The mob takes the Fifth. If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”

- Donald Trump, September 2016

 

 

Also interesting to note: Trump pleaded the 5th 97 times in 1990 during his divorce proceeding from Marla Maples.

 

[Llevron]

@AsburySkinsFanI know you right. I just cant help it sometimes. Then I think about that story Jumbo told me about the guy that fell into the same hole every day. 

 

I am that guy, unfortunately. 

 

But believe it or not TWA knows better lol. I can tell. I dont know how I can tell. But I can tell. It takes one to know one, I guess lol

[AsburySkinsFan]

30 minutes ago, Llevron said:

@AsburySkinsFanI know you right. I just cant help it sometimes. Then I think about that story Jumbo told me about the guy that fell into the same hole every day. 

 

I am that guy, unfortunately. 

 

But believe it or not TWA knows better lol. I can tell. I dont know how I can tell. But I can tell. It takes one to know one, I guess lol

Trust me, I'm there brother. I KNOW @twa knows better because I remember him from "before" the make over.