The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Burgundy Yoda]

Just now, markshark84 said:

 

So you are saying that Doctson + player to be determined later = Garcon + Jackson.

 

Yeah, not so much.

 

With an increased role for Crowder, that's exactly what i'm saying. 

[Fan since a Fetus]

I don't think that the 49ers signing Hoyer is any indication that they still won't try for Cousins.  Hoyer is oft injured and only signed a two year deal. I think this just gives more leverage to the 49ers in trade negotiations.  They don't have to bend over backwards to get Cousins.  49ers are still in need of a starting QB.  It's odd how some assume Hoyer can play and start for a team, yet Colt McCoy can't. (Not saying I  want McCoy to start or if I even think he is a viable option.)  Both Hoyer and McCoy are great back ups to have.

[Gamebreaker]

2 minutes ago, markshark84 said:

 

So you are saying that Doctson + player to be determined later = Garcon + Jackson.

 

Yeah, not so much.

 

Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done about that. We don't need to overpay for two 30 yr old WRs. The uncertainty in Doctson makes me wish we brought at least one of them back. But I would've been angrier at the FO for matching a Niner offer that frontloaded that much money when our defense needs better talent more than our offense does. 

[Fan since a Fetus]

1 minute ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

 

With an increased role for Crowder, that's exactly what i'm saying. 

 

I really think Crowder is going to surprise everyone and be working a lot on the outside this year. Setting him in motion and creating mismatches

[Bifflog]

JLC reporting that it's "likely" we reach a deal with Kirk in line with the tag money by Jul 15th, that would be HUGE.  Maybe the only thing that would make me feel any level of comfort going forward after the last week or so.

[PartyPosse]

The way I see it, with the Garcon contract and so much of it going to the 2017 season and bringing in Goodwin plus the signing of Hoyer is SF, SF is just gonna wait til next year to sign Kirk as a FA and we end up with nothing. Goodwin is young, and Garcon's cap hit will probably be low. I really don't think we're gonna see a LTD and I truly feel like we're stuck with Kirk for 1 year. 

[markshark84]

2 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

 

With an increased role for Crowder, that's exactly what i'm saying. 

 

 

Alrightythen. 

 

[SlkyCaramel]

Just now, Fan since a Fetus said:

I don't think that the 49ers signing Hoyer is any indication that they still won't try for Cousins.  Hoyer is oft injured and only signed a two year deal. I think this just gives more leverage to the 49ers in trade negotiations.  They don't have to bend over backwards to get Cousins.  49ers are still in need of a starting QB.  It's odd how some assume Hoyer can play and start for a team, yet Colt McCoy can't. (Not saying I  want McCoy to start or if I even think he is a viable option.)  Both Hoyer and McCoy are great back ups to have.

 

That's fine, but let's say no trade is done, Cousins stays here and just plays on the tag and doesn't agree to an LTD and the 49ers have Hoyer.

 

In 2018, a year with a VERY strong QB class, even if Cousins goes to the 49ers, who is to say he starts there? Let's not act like Cousins just sitting and hoping to go to the 49ers and start in 2018 isn't risky as hell and definitely not a guaranteed situation for him. For a team in a rebuild nothing is more exciting than a brand new shiny rookie QB straight from the draft (and it would definitely be more exciting than 30 year old Cousins). 

[markshark84]

2 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done about that. We don't need to overpay for two 30 yr old WRs. The uncertainty in Doctson makes me wish we brought at least one of them back. But I would've been angrier at the FO for matching a Niner offer that frontloaded that much money when our defense needs better talent more than our offense does. 

 

I agree.  I wouldn't give Garcon $16M in Y1.   No way.  He's too old and Doctson hopefully can fill in his role --- but whether he's healthy and is a quality player, we have no clue.  I'd throw money at Jackson because he's dynamic, but I'm not sure what the market is saying.  If it is $16M like Garcon, that's just too deep.

[actorguy1]

Been reading NFL Trade Rumors archive of articles on Von Miller. Phew...they really made it seem difficult. Prepared to sit out the season, asking for trade, talks breaking off numerous times. Finally a deal on July 15th.  I am not looking forward to this. 

[Fan since a Fetus]

Just now, actorguy1 said:

Been reading NFL Trade Rumors archive of articles on Von Miller. Phew...they really made it seem difficult. Prepared to sit out the season, asking for trade, talks breaking off numerous times. Finally a deal on July 15th.  I am not looking forward to this. 

 

I think Miller even had some unkind words for Elway and the Broncos on twitter also....if i recall correctly.

[Burgundy Yoda]

Just now, markshark84 said:

 

 

Alrightythen. 

 

 

You are acting like if Doctson pans out, which is possible, that he can't replace what Garcon can do. The dude was a 1st round pick. Please tell me what aspects of Garcons game is great. Don't sell me on toughness and blocking, Garcon is/was a very well rounded receiver with no real glaring weaknesses or strengths. 

 

Losing Desean is going to hurt more IMO. Both are going to be 31 during the 2017 and could slowly start declining anyways. 

[markshark84]

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

The way I see it, with the Garcon contract and so much of it going to the 2017 season and bringing in Goodwin plus the signing of Hoyer is SF, SF is just gonna wait til next year to sign Kirk as a FA and we end up with nothing. Goodwin is young, and Garcon's cap hit will probably be low. I really don't think we're gonna see a LTD and I truly feel like we're stuck with Kirk for 1 year. 

 

No kidding.  How SF structures their contracts will tell you 100% of what you need to know.  They have tons of cap space this year.  They are in a position to pay players up front, then reduce their cap hits in subsequent years ---- making way for a $25M+ payday for Cousins.

 

That also reduces the value we can get for Cousins.  If I'm SF, I'm not offering anything for him and just waiting. 

[Fan since a Fetus]

3 minutes ago, SlkyCaramel said:

In 2018, a year with a VERY strong QB class, even if Cousins goes to the 49ers, who is to say he starts there?

 

really not understanding you here. If Cousins ends up with the 49ers, the dude is starting. This whole board can disagree about Cousins all day long, but one thing is for certain, he is a starter in this league

[PartyPosse]

5 minutes ago, markshark84 said:

 

I agree.  I wouldn't give Garcon $16M in Y1.   No way.  He's too old and Doctson hopefully can fill in his role --- but whether he's healthy and is a quality player, we have no clue.  I'd throw money at Jackson because he's dynamic, but I'm not sure what the market is saying.  If it is $16M like Garcon, that's just too deep.

It's gonna be 16 mil in year one and then probably 4-7 in the following years. High cap hit and frontloading on players this year means they're gonna take it off and sign Kirk next year without it being an issue on their cap. 

[PortisBetts]

Just sign Kirk. I will be much more forgiving of all this mess if we get him under contract.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Just now, PortisBetts said:

Just sign Kirk. I will be much more forgiving of all this mess if we get him under contract.

Honestly, if we're in a rebuilding mode on offense: young receivers/backs etc, I'd just as soon trade Kirk and go young period.

[SlkyCaramel]

5 minutes ago, Fan since a Fetus said:

 

really not understanding you here. If Cousins ends up with the 49ers, the dude is starting. This whole board can disagree about Cousins all day long, but one thing is for certain, he is a starter in this league

 

We have absolutely no way of knowing that. We're talking about 2018, not this year. I find it ironic in a year of Dak Prescott and all kinds of things that people are talking in absolutes about what will definitely happen a year from now. 

 

I don't get what is confusing about what I'm saying. JLC basically said the same thing lol. 

[wit33]

26 minutes ago, desertbeagle85 said:

I'm sure Kirk wants out. This team has never shown that they've got confidence in him.

 

Now he's got only Crowder and well he's not a number 1 that's for sure.

 

Reed is a monster but he's also made of glass.

 

Run game is weak and organization is a joke.

 

So yep not sure why he would want to be here.

 

Money is nice though only thing that had kept him here. That and he doesn't have a choice.

 

Welcome to being the highest paid player. Now go out and elevate the pieces around you. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

9 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

The way I see it, with the Garcon contract and so much of it going to the 2017 season and bringing in Goodwin plus the signing of Hoyer is SF, SF is just gonna wait til next year to sign Kirk as a FA and we end up with nothing. Goodwin is young, and Garcon's cap hit will probably be low. I really don't think we're gonna see a LTD and I truly feel like we're stuck with Kirk for 1 year. 

 

So you really think these players signed with the 49ers and will wait a whole year, where anything could happen, just on the chance that Kirk Cousins could be throwing them the ball in 2018?

[JSSkinz]

11 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

The way I see it, with the Garcon contract and so much of it going to the 2017 season and bringing in Goodwin plus the signing of Hoyer is SF, SF is just gonna wait til next year to sign Kirk as a FA and we end up with nothing. Goodwin is young, and Garcon's cap hit will probably be low. I really don't think we're gonna see a LTD and I truly feel like we're stuck with Kirk for 1 year. 

 

 

If I was the SF GM and a coach I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, we can transition him and then match their offer next year and if that happens SF will still have no QB going into Kyle's 2nd season.

[LightningBuggs]

10 minutes ago, Fan since a Fetus said:

I don't think that the 49ers signing Hoyer is any indication that they still won't try for Cousins.  Hoyer is oft injured and only signed a two year deal. I think this just gives more leverage to the 49ers in trade negotiations.  They don't have to bend over backwards to get Cousins.  49ers are still in need of a starting QB.  It's odd how some assume Hoyer can play and start for a team, yet Colt McCoy can't. (Not saying I  want McCoy to start or if I even think he is a viable option.)  Both Hoyer and McCoy are great back ups to have.

Agreed. Hoyer is a career backup and Niners had no other qbs under contract. This changes little in my mind. Plus there are several other teams that need a qb too. SF isn't only one. 

 

Bottom line, I still think it's unlikely a LTD gets done here. If I'm right, you have to trade him and get something for him as opposed to watching him walk next year for nothing more than a comp pick in middle of draft. 

[desertbeagle85]

11 minutes ago, Bifflog said:

JLC reporting that it's "likely" we reach a deal with Kirk in line with the tag money by Jul 15th, that would be HUGE.  Maybe the only thing that would make me feel any level of comfort going forward after the last week or so.

 

 

Great so JLC must be in those meetings with Kirk's agent and our front office. Or maybe he's guessing, because he's the only one that's reporting that.

[markshark84]

Just now, Burgundy Yoda said:

 

You are acting like if Doctson pans out, which is possible, that he can't replace what Garcon can do. The dude was a 1st round pick. Please tell me what aspects of Garcons game is great. Don't sell me on toughness and blocking, Garcon is/was a very well rounded receiver with no real glaring weaknesses or strengths. 

 

Losing Desean is going to hurt more IMO. Both are going to be 31 during the 2017 and could slowly start declining anyways. 

 

Garcon isn't that great. I agree.  Doctson is totally unproven and did absolutely nothing when on the field other than run fade routes that went for incomplete passes last year.  The fact Doctson was a 1st doesn't mean anything other than he played well in college.  This isn't college.  Lots of 1st round WRs haven't panned out.  Whether or not he does is yet to be determined --- but banking on him being better than Garcon isn't a guarantee or probable.  It could happen, but the odds are against you.

 

Jackson is the key.  He isn't replaceable by a "player to be named later" or by an uptick in catches by Crowder.  He is one of the top 3 deep threats in the game.  There is a reason both guys were highly sought after in FA. 

 

I agree that being 30 hurts, but WR tend to play well until about 33, so we would have had a couple more years with them ---- but it wouldn't have been smart to sign then to 4 or 5 year deals with a significant signing bonus.  But this issue isn't whether we should have signed them ---- it's whether we will be better off without them; and that answer is a clear NO.

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

 

So you really think these players signed with the 49ers and will wait a whole year, where anything could happen, just on the chance that Kirk Cousins could be throwing them the ball in 2018?

Pierre is getting 16 million (allegedly). I'm sure Goodwin is gonna get a frontloaded deal as well. That's a lot of dough.